do the prophets, seers, and revelators really believe the lies?
they have access to all the info in the world, inner secrets and what not regarding the mormon cult

pretty sure none of them believe but they have to pretend. or else

what do you think?

Their process selects for the truly deluded, so I think most of them really believe. Selecting for incompetence has paid off big-time for the church. Obviously, some skills are more useful that others.

Remember when the BoA parchment was found? If they knew it was a lie, why did they pay real Egyptologists to study it? Joseph was proven a fraud once again and the church ended up with egg on its face.

I agree with Bradley. The human propensity for self-delusion is a lot greater than many of us are able or willing to comprehend.

They know God is not exactly calling them on the phone or showing up at the temple. They know just like us that they are having a one way conversation with themselves when they pray and speak for God.

They know everything they do is their own "inspiration." They know the history of the church is sketchy at best. I think maybe some of them mindlessly go along with the inspiration excuse which also has the benefit of justifying whatever they want to do (like hoarding money).

I think that the ones who flat out know how bogus it is have decided it would be too devastating for the believers if there were no church. They feel they are promoting the greater good for the group and actual truth isn't a priority.

Some have to know. Some are truly delusional.

At a certain point you evolve into lock-step and the competition to show you can be marching better than anyone and belief has absolutely nothing to do with it. You no longer consider what may be true. That is irrelevant to your life.

Once you accept that you "know", why look further?

This applies to Jan 6 as well. Wouldn't you like to turn Liz Cheney loose on the Gerontocracy for a televised inquistion?

I don't know. If they don't they have no power in what they claim. If they do they have no clout with anything about ancient ancient history or most Christianity.

My guess is that regardless of their individual belief their group belief is pervasive and pernicious.

They are corporate snake handlers with money to pay for the affects of their venom.

I think many of them are deluded to the point of believing they represent God.

But they undoubtedly know that they are not what they claim. They know that JS did not translate the BoM by means of the U&T; they understand that JS was teaching monogamy even as he engaged in extramarital affairs; they realize with regard to Mormon history that "some things that are true are not useful." More importantly, the Q15 are fully aware that none of them have seen Jesus even though they lead others to believe that they interact with him frequently.

What they have done is to decide that the doctrinal and historical lies don't matter and should be sustained because they are the basis of the Q15's power. And for me, that's enough. The prophets and apostles intentionally deceive the members and engage in actions and processes that would fail an eight-year-old's baptismal interview.

I would prefer to be ruled by that eight-year-old who has just failed her baptismal interview because at least she is honest.

true that. all your comments are spot on. i was forgetting the factor they might be truly delusional egotistical maniacs

and it all starts with joseph smith as someone pointed out - preaching monogamy to the public while secretly having love affairs even with married women

btw, i once read that when one of the early missionaries came back from his mission (orson or parley pratt i can't remember) he became depressed and even suicidal after finding out that smith had been banging his pretty wife and she was cool with it - she suffered from the rasputin syndrome as i call it

You are describing Orson Hyde, whose wife JS stole. Smith also tried to take Sarah Pratt, but that courageous woman not only refused but went public--to which the prophet replied by having his minions denounce her as a whore.

Orson Pratt was offended by what JS had done, but ultimately he sided with the prophet and effectively abandoned his wife. I believe Sarah eventually divorced him.

yes! that's the one. it was orson hyde. you are absolutely right

Both Pratt and Hyde, I believe, were removed from the quorum for a while because of their estrangement from Smith. When they were readmitted, they started from scratch and lost their seniority. That weakened Pratt in particular against Brigham Young, who battled the apostle for decades in Utah.

There's a book about their disputes entitled Conflict in the Quorum. It lists four points on which BY and OP disagreed.

BY said Lucy Smith was undependable and repressed her biography of her son. Orson thought the book should be published. Ultimately the church adopted Pratt's position

BY claimed that JS taught that Adam was God. OP rejected that, saying that BY misunderstood what JS had said. Ultimately the church embraced Pratt's view.

BY said that God was still progressing towards perfection in knowledge and understanding. Pratt disagreed. Eventually the church went with Pratt.

Pratt said that spirit was particular, like atoms, a form of matter that existed in greater or lesser proportions in various people. BY disagreed and on this point the church concurred with him.

But BY was the prophet and he forced OP to renounce his views in conference. Because in the last analysis Mormonism is about obedience and not integrity.

thnx for the book recommendation. not sure if i should read it though

i thought i was fully healed if you will but i found out i'm still angry. i just re-watched a video of gordon hinckley being bi-sexual and a pedophile while he was an apostle. i also re-watched god makers 1 and 2. i thought it was going to have a good time but it made me sad, angry, sad, angry, happy. a rollercoaster of emotions

yes, i lost my family through divorce because i questioned mormonism. eventually i walked away from both: the bitch and the cult. never looked back

and yet i'm still angry apparently **shrug**

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
- Upton Sinclair

Maybe by the time they could be GAs, they have so much invested that they can't possibly entertain the thought of anything else.

Just so. That is my assumption, and the logic is much as BoJ outlines.

It's hard to persuade someone that they're living a lie when the lie is why they are living.

They really believe they speak for God.

Imagine the ego they'd need to have to think they are soooo special.
"Gee, I must have been amazing in the preexistence or something!"

I think they believe in money, power and privilege. That's all that matters to them.