I have left TSCC fairly recently (within the last year) and since then have been trying to piece how I feel about the existence of God and Christianity...blah blah blah.

My question to all you atheists, how did you establish a belief system of what is right and wrong for yourself? Like, Christians tend to follow the "Big 10" and "being Christ-like" because they feel like it would please/displease God. If you do not believe in God and do not feel eternal punishment, how do you choose morals?

I am in no way trying to say that atheists are not decent moral human beings, I'm just trying to figure out why they are.

My reason is because I enjoy the quality of life when people act ethically. It just makes for a much more pleasant earthly existence.

When I first left TSCC, 25+ yrs ago, my biggest concern was how to decide whether or not to drink or have sex. I finally realized that I would make those decisions the way most adults do, weighing the pros and cons. I'm happy with the way things turned out.

But you're talking more about a general moral code. And what I realized was that while many of us believed that it was "God" that made us "be good", the fact is that MOST people who are mentally healthy, don't want to do things like rob banks and commit murder and mayhem. It's not fear of God or hell that's kept us from doing those things. It's the fact that we aren't tempted to really do them in the first place.

I, selfishly, would like to live in a world where nobody would ever bother me or my stuff under any circumstances. So I try not to bother anybody or their stuff. It's sort of my contribution to the way I wish things were.

I think that the longer one thinks about these things, the more one comes to realize what a great con job religion has pulled over on everyone. It seems like the majority of people think that their religion is saving them from becoming the monster they fear they are inside. When in reality, there is no monster. There never was a monster. It's all just a mind game to keep you in their group.

"Christians tend to follow the "Big 10""

sorry....... I call bullshit

do you even know what they are off the top of your head? If you do, I guess you didn't engage your brain before writing those words.



Ethical actions and morals have nothing to do with religion. they are a property of our evolution as tribal animals.

[edited for spelling]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2011 02:46PM by EssexExMo.

should I have said Christians "claim" to follow the Big 10? I sure as heck don't know what they are but I'm not sure I'm Christian either...hence the questions in the first place. My bad.

Eventually I came to realize that giving credit to my religious upbringing for my knowledge of good and evil was an illusion. Whatever bits of morality religion lays claim to is taken from their adherents, not passed to them.

I recommend you read "The Moral Landscape", by Sam Harris. A link to a teaser follows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt7AGv-RNGM

This is a compelling speech.
There is a culture of strong secular morals out there.

Instead of trying to relate my journey, I have a suggestion for:

Allow yourself the possibility that god, whichever flavor you choose, is BFF with Santa, and see where you end up.

From where I stand, fear is a distant memory. Love reigns.

I am a good person because I choose to be.

What does it say about believers who only make moral choices because they think the big bad sky daddy is watching? Sounds a little naive and childish to me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2011 02:55PM by Queen of Denial.

I've a nevermo and grew up in an atheist/irreligious home.

I was taught how 'to be good' by my parents simply by them suggesting that I imagine myself in someone else's shoes.

'How would you feel if you owned a corner shop and a little girl came in a stole a chocolate bar from it? Would you think that's fair? Why or why not?'

'How would you feel if you had kids teasing you? Would it make you feel good?'

Etc...

'Put yourself in their shoes' was a mantra in my childhood.

It's all about empathy.

I know what it feels like when someone treats me badly. I don't want to do anything that makes someone upset or unhappy or causes them any physical or emotional pain.

Was raised Catholic. Still Catholic in sensibilities, but I never believed it beyond accepting it as a child bc I was told it was true (just like the tooth fairy and Santa.)

Personally I think those whose goodness is based in empathy are purer in their ethics because their actions are not based on a reward/punishment motivator.

But I can not agree that it is "it's all about empathy". Self defense, something I think is morally justified, has nothing to do with empathy.

So, I learned basic right and wrong (morals) the way everyone else did, and I mean everyone, I learned it from my parents. From there my moral belief system has change based on my experiences. I also admit that nobody has come up with a perfect set of moral rules, that there are moral gray areas, etc.

So, in the end, I trudge along trying to do my best to do "good" whatever that really means.

I do find that most religious people I know do not get their moral belief system from their religion. To be honest, every time I get to know a religious person well enough, I find they don't practice everything their scriptures say, nor do the believe every word their pastor/preacher/bishop says. They use some other moral code to judge what if their religion is good (right) or bad (wrong). They then use what they find in their religion that supports their ideas of what is right and wrong and use it to support their views and they ignore all the rest. Many do this without even realizing it, some admit to it by saying they are "cafeteria [religion]".

It is likely that you already have a moral code (ideas as to right and wrong) independent of the LDS church evidenced by the fact that you have left TSCC. Therefor, you don't really need us to tell you how to establish such belief system, you only need to learn to trust your own and how to modify it based on rational thinking.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2011 02:59PM by MJ.

MJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I do find that most religious people I know do not
> get their moral belief system from their religion.
> To be honest, every time I get to know a religious
> person well enough, I find they don't practice
> everything their scriptures say, nor do the
> believe every word their pastor/preacher/bishop
> says. They use some other moral code to judge what
> if their religion is good (right) or bad (wrong).
> They then use what they find in their religion
> that supports their ideas of what is right and
> wrong and use it to support their views and they
> ignore all the rest.

Exactly. Religious people, myself included not to long ago, have to make those choices, because the scriptures & leaders are in constant contradiction. If I didn't make my own choices to follow which beliefs felt right to me, I would have imploded.

MJ, I'm not looking for people to tell me what I should think "right" or "wrong" is. I was just more curious how people who didn't believe in God or where religious at all established morals or was it a separate thing altogether. Purely my sociology-tended brain wondering...

I did no such thing. If you do think that I told you what is right or wrong, please show where I did such a thing.

If you read my question more closely, you may find that I did answer the question you asked. The two points I made:

1) Children learn from their parents not from God.

2) You used a set of morals evidently separate from religion to get to the point were you are now, so where did you get the moral code that enabled you leave TSCC? If you got the moral code from another religion or another version of Christian, it is doubtful you would be questioning the existence of God the way you seem to be doing. So, my second point is that you have a moral code that is not from God. Having a moral code that is not from God would mean that you have the answer to your question, all you need to do is to figure out where your moral code is truly coming from.

Just google "where do atheists get their morals" and have a ball. There are hundreds of sites that clearly show how non-believers don't need religion of any kind to be moraly grounded.

The "about.com" after the above search is as good place to start as any.

"Morality and Religion" http://packham.n4m.org/morality.htm

I tend to keep my options open now. I don't like the concept of 'finality' so I don't even have it in me to write off the concept of "God". In those terms I am a lot more happy and stable in a belief in something greater than myself, but not so knee jerk reactionary as to attack someone for their world of pretend.

Pretend, in my personal sphere of influence, still has a minor place. But I let other's have their pretend too and I am comfortable in that as long as they don't attack, manipulate, guilt, and keep it to themselves or at least are capable of having legitimate conversations about it.

"Oh Sky Cake...why do you have to be so delicious!" - Patton Oswalt

- Avoid the criminal justice system

- Don't harm myself

- Don't harm others

- Don't be a dick

- Don't be selfish

- Try to have a positive impact

- All things in moderation, including all the above, and including moderation

Really, it's not that complicated -- unless someone is naturally a dick, in which case they should stick with religion.

The whole "do under others" idea can go a long, long way without any kind of religion entering into the equation.

One thought that is ofter expressed is that if a person is only being honest, good, kind, loving, whatever, because they think that's what some deity is demanding, then they aren't a very moral person are they?

Thomas Moore: "Care of the Soul", "Soul Mates", and "The Reenchantment of Everyday Life".

While I was teaching school, I had an epiphany of sorts reading the work of a behavorist Rudolph Druckers. He described 4 different kinds of misbehavior of children which he theorized were caused by "mistaken goals".

Healthy children move toward "self-actualization". But some children have mistaken goals - 1. power, 2. revenge, 3. attention, and 4. to appear incompetent, thus be left alone.

I find that these "mistaken goals" drive what we call immorality as well in adults.

To be a self actualized person is to see the big picture, to see one's place in the scheme of things, to understand the needs of others, to see how fairness and kindness "work" in life.

I'm reluctant to call myself an atheist although I guess that's waht I am. I just think if one lives this life with kindness, authenticity and grace, the next life, if there is one, will take care of itself.

I believe that becuase I don't believe in eternal punishment or doing good deeds solely to get a front seat in heaven, I am able to take more joy in helping people. My mother taught me the values that I have today and I obey what my conscience says. Yesterday, I saw a video of a dog running out onto the highway to help an injured dog it didn't know, helping it to saftey at the risk of its own life. If animals can do good deeds without religion telling them to, then so can I.

I guess right and wrong seemed pretty obvious to me. Follow the GOLDEN RULE. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you are hurting someone else, you are doing something wrong. If you are making someone else happy you are doing right.

I actually felt that religion made it more difficult to distinguish between right and wrong. Religious dogma, worship and history muddied the waters and made things more complicated than it should have been. Too many rituals. Too much end justifies the means crap. Too much focus on superficial things. I actually felt liberated when I left the church and felt I could follow what MADE SENSE to ME.

Just follow the Golden Rule and your own conscience. We aren't mindless zombies (although religion, esp Mormonism, would prefer you that way).

Keep an open mind but if it doesn't seem right, then it probably isn't.

I was also going to recommend Sam Harris' "The Moral Landscape", but was beat to it. I believe that science, now days, can explain morality better than anything. What is right or wrong can be determined to the extent that it affects the well-being of conscious creatures.

As an exmo, this opens up your life to whole new world of experiences, and it's liberating.

Like a beautiful tinkling shower of gold.

Everything evil flows behind Satanosaurus. Like a trail of goopy brown sludge.

Bathe in my goodness, and you will always be moral.

dowahdiddy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am in no way trying to say that atheists are not
> decent moral human beings, I'm just trying to
> figure out why they are.

Why are athiests moral? Because 250,000 years of human evolutionary survival has made us what we are. So... do people get morals from religion, or did religion get morals from humanity? Unfortunately, morals from church and religious leaders tend to be more for the religion than the individual. Therefore... when it comes to morals, I actually give the nod to the athiest rather than the religious agenda.

Yes, I realize that's a very unusual concept after a lifetime paradigm of having religionists tell you how to behave.

Not to be disrespectful, but if you are feeling like you need a religion to tell you how to behave, you better stay the hell away from atheism.
Morals do not come from religion, as they claim, religion tried hijacking morals as a way to impose behavior on everyone else.
I'm atheist -- I don't lie, I don't kill, I don't cheat on my wife of 20 years, and I had enough ethics, morality and integrity to leave the church. Mormons are shocked to find out that I'm not one of them (I live in the Morg).

unless you've got your own ox, donkey or slave or even believe in a Sabbath day, like Christians do (I think). Besides, the first half is all about what God likes, "me, me, me! Oh, and don't kill, lie, or steal!".

As Hitchens likes to point out: did the world not know of the above until Mt. Sinai? Surely, they could not have survived that long as a people without some form of behavior code?

dowahdiddy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My question to all you atheists, how did you
> establish a belief system of what is right and
> wrong for yourself? If you do not believe in God and do not feel eternal punishment, how do you choose morals?
>
--

I think most mentally healthy people are moral, it's just that religions have taken the credit.

I think that a person should be able to take the best philosophies from wherever they might find them, and ignore the rest. Golden rule is good. Most of the big-ten are good.

Religious Morality
I have been anointed by God, disobey me, and then you disobey GOD!
Now bring half of all you produce to the back door of the castle, and be quick about it!


Human Morality
I have plenty to eat have some of mine


Any questions?

I think you are underestimating human nature. Most people simply want to be good or atleast be percieved as good. There is a sense of right vs wrong built into most of us. And we play the game according to the rules, not only because we'd risk getting in trouble if we didn't, but also because we have an interest in making our social life work smoothly. That is, I don't cheat and steal, because I want to be trusted and I know I don't want to be cheated or robbed myself so I don't want to contribute to that behavior which I hate. It's a bit about being consistent in my values and not measure others with another stick than that which I measure myself with.

My rules:

1. Don't do any deed for which I could be fined or incarcerated.
2. Don't do any deed for which I would be uncomfortable if I had to explain it in a courtroom trial.
3. Treat other people in the same way that I want them to treat me.