https://m.facebook.com/mormonstories/videos/the-mormon-missionary-program-is-ethically-and-operationally-bankrupt-in-my-opin/618199562997870/

John Dehlin recently did a MORmON stories podcast about how the Mormon missionary program is broken, bankrupt, morally, ethically. If they told the truth, nobody would join. Joseph Smith had 30 wives, more than 10 of whom were married to other men, more than 10 of them teenagers as young as 14, that alone would be enough to get people to NEVER join, but then pile on top of that the racism, that’s still in the Book of Mormon, God turns whole races of people dark skin so they’d be loathsome to white people. If blacks knew that they’d NEVER join!

The Missionaries are lying by omitting that every day. So why waste 2yrs and tons of money, to go out and lie for two years?

I think JD is missing the whole point of missions. It’s not really to convert others, it’s to full convert and trap Missionaries in the Mormon CULTure. If you repeat a lie often enough, and argue against any opposition to that whitewashed simplified narrative, you become deeply, morally, ethically committed to the white supremacist, patriarchal doomsday ideology. By maintaining your erroneous beliefs, despite superior evidence to the contrary, you delude yourself, into believing you really are superior to all of these ‘others’, ‘gentiles’.
It’s a way of convincing those born in the church, to maintain the tribal myths they inherited, despite mounting evidence to the contrary.
It’s the definition of delusion.
And that’s how the mass delusion gets perpetuated generation after generation.

Oh absolutely. I went on a mission 30 years ago and my missionary president as much as admitted that. He said an investigator may or may not join and may or may not stay active but missionary has already invested enough of themselves by going on a mission in the 1st place that they are the ones that mattered. Plenty of missionaries that should have been sent home, that were not working, had good, productive missionaries stuck with them basically babysitting. This was because the missionary was considered the one who needed saving - more so than the people in my country that weren't members.

If a missionary would convert people to Honesty, Kindness..

Oh well.

It seemed that there used to be a statistic that half of all returning missionaries became inactive, is that still true?

Yes.

Half of me is inactive. Luckily it's the top half.

It may very well be the case, but however many RMs become inactive, the number would almost surely be even higher among that same group if they did not serve missions. It's largely about investment. The more an individual invests -- time, money, heart, soul, whatever -- in anything, the harder it is to give it up.

Beyond that, it's a way to get young people who are no longer legally compelled to do as their parents dictate but not necessarily mature enough to make consistently wise choices into another environment where, at least in theory, someone else has authority over their lives. Unfortunately, because they aren't allowed to make enough of their own decisions and mistakes and to learn from them, most of them come back chronologically older but no wiser nor more mature than they were two years earlier.

+ Yep!

SCMD not logged in Wrote:
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> Unfortunately, because they aren't allowed to make
> enough of their own decisions and mistakes and to
> learn from them, most of them come back
> chronologically older but no wiser nor more mature
> than they were two years earlier.

Exactly right, in my observation. I got to know many of the missionaries more so than perhaps a regular "investigator", for reasons that don't matter now. They had zero autonomy and had to follow a well scripted schedule and rules, rules, rules, always subject to someone who was in charge of them. Never allowed to be alone.

How does a teenager learn and grow in such an environment?

Even being completely clueless about Mormonism, I could tell something was off about "the missionary program" and it was fairly obvious that the strict rules and severely curtailed two years of life were directed at keeping the missionary in the fold much more so than truly expecting hordes of converts to rush in and swell church numbers.

I went to Utah to go to the temple for the first time. I stayed with the family of a missionary I'd known up here. I could tell that his parents had struggled financially to send him. I forget now the details of the economic realities for Mormon families but I know the church rakes off a lot of a household income. His mom and I got along well and she said to me one day that meeting me had helped her to understand "all our sacrifices". It made me feel so sad for them. And all people stuck in Mormonism who just pray, pay and obey no matter what it costs, literally and figuratively.

No wonder the Big-3 emphasize obedience so strongly. Only by adhering to such a big demand, so often repeated, could the "prophets" hope to keep so many in the fold.

The money the church rakes in - and what they do, or do not do with it - is unbelievable in scope, tragic for the families who do without because they obey the greedy leaders, and worthy of the world's scorn.

I hope the upcoming TV program being shown on Canadian TV ("The Fifth Estate"), mentioned in another thread, will throw some light on this topic and help members as well as non-mos to see the church in a different light, closer to the way it really is.

There's too much lying, pressuring and grifting going on. So sad for BICs. It can be excruciating to pry oneself away from the sticky, sticky Mormon glue, because they've splashed it about, through the generations, and it's everywhere all over those born in the covenant or whatever that saying is.

Missions are for the missionaries, I've heard more than one Mormon say.

It's ingenious from the leaders' point of view. Even if many figure it out, all too often they've already spent 30% or more of their lives supporting Mormonism, many unwillingly but it's a trap, if you're BIC especially, and it usually costs a lot to find the key and use it.

When I attended the open house at the Washington, D.C. temple, there were tons of young missionaries there. A large number of them were young women -- I'm not sure if half of them were women, but it seemed like at least 40%. I looked at them with wonder. They were young, healthy, and energetic. I guessed that they must have been from all over the country, with many of them being from the Moridor. I was wondering if their mission was what they hoped it would be -- if they were happy, and felt productive in their work. I wondered if they were spending at least some of their time enjoying Washington, D.C., which is truly a national treasure.

The dress of the young women can only be described (with few exceptions) as frumpy. Why does the church decree this? It doesn't make a great impression among nevermos. You can be modest without dressing like an old woman.

Most were not interacting with the public. There was a huge number of nevermos attending on that last weekend that the temple was open to the public. Instead, the missionaries were standing on the front lawn area, chatting with each other. Were they shy, or over it, or simply excited to see their friends and peers? I have no idea.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2022 07:34PM by summer.

What is the lag time between when a parent sends in $ & when the mish gets it?

Have they - do they adjust for inflation?

If there’s any lag time, consider the interest ChurchCo is raking in!!

Also, what if a parent Refused to funnel $ through ChurchCo???

Some parents can't or won't fund a mission. Generally the missionary's home ward picks up the cost when that's the case.

>considering the interest ChurchCo is raking in

I’m not sure what the monthly “donation” is per missionary, but let’s say it is $500, to have something to work with.

For 60,000 missionaries that’d be $30 million a month. At a short term money market rate of 1% per year, that’d earn $300,000 per year or approx $6,000 per week.

If they hung onto it for a week each month before forwarding the money to the missionaries, and did that once a month, they’d “rake in” all of $6,000 a month, which wouldn’t even buy two business class tickets for one GA and wife to fly to rededicate a temple somewhere.

Ensign Peaks is where the real money is at. Short term interest on delayed disbursement would be chickenfeed. And the chickens would be hungry.

These are rough estimates from 30 some years ago.

My monthly missionary supplemental subsidy was 350 per month. This was after the church missionary department created this standard fee for every mission as a way to make certain missions~ Japan in particular more affordable for Mormon families. Keep in mind that many mission costs were way below the average of 350.

Every family supporting a missionary paid their monthly bill thru their home ward. It went straight into the massive Missionary Budget. The Church then allocated each mission funding based on the total # of missionaries actively serving per mission. And each mission had a COLA value assigned to it. In my case, my existence never merited the full value of the 350.

I served in very poor areas in Texas, most of my mission approved lodging was best described as flea bag, cockroach infested squalor. These were decrepit holes in the wall apartments had hot plates, a sub small microwave oven and non-working stoves. Two bare bulbs were the entire lighting for the entire apartment.

These approved hell-holes were to cost no more than 200 a month or 350 for 2 bedrooms for 2 sets of missionaries. Apartments had to be furnished and the church usually worked out long term leases in order to finagle the owner to include electricity/water/sewer.- The catch was that missionaries were never in their apartments and window A/C units were to be TURNED OFF during the day. Phones were basic- no long distance calling. And sometimes you could not direct dial the zone leaders if they lived several towns away :)

So, let's review the cost of a missionary companionship. From 700 dollars, 250 (125 each missionary is for food, clothing, grooming, cleaning supplies, bike repairs) goes directly to the missionary pair. As much as 285 can cover utilities and rent. The church can make 100 per missionary per month. That adds up if you have 50,000 serving each month. That's 5 million per month or 60 million annually.

My mission prez actually told us that he would allot us 75 dollars a month if the church would approve it; said we were too spoiled. I had many companions receiving additional funds from home because the church ration of 125 wasn't cutting it.

The other issue I have with JD's take is, this,

"Joseph Smith had 30 wives, more than 10 of whom were married to other men, more than 10 of them teenagers as young as 14, that alone would be enough to get people to NEVER join"

So why isn't it enough to get people to leave Mormonism when they find out that's true?

That was enough to get my wife to finally admit to herself, "It's a fraud." to me, herself, and to other Mormons, like her Nazi TBM Mom, who went apeshit and called the "Area Authority", Bishop and Stake President on us (all Close, personal, longtime friends and professional associates) on us to come convince us of the error of our ways. You know what the AA's answer was?

"Women have always found polygamy an anathema."

I shook my head in disbelief. And said, "Well if it's wrong, why don't you find it an anathema?"

He went into a long personal story, I won't tell here, but it involved his daughter who had recently passed away, and a feeling of peace and comfort he received in the temple, KNOWING that he'd be reunited with her again in the next life, in the Celestial Kingdom, and that meant more to him than anything in the world.

I really didn't want to shatter this guy's whole world view so I said, "I believe we're all agnostic. I don't KNOW and neither do you. That's why I live every day as though it could be my last, because we never know. And I'm not going to count on a next life to get this life right, because we don't know."

He didn't much appreciate that said he didn't come over to get into a contentious argument (even though he's a lawyer) but just wanted to know my reasons why I didn't believe.

I said, "And I answered you. I refuse to remain silent while my kids are indoctrinated to believe 19th racist myths represent reality, long after they've all been debunked by modern DNA science. You're a lawyer, can you just deny genetic DNA evidence in a trial?

He tried to change the subject, but I said, "How can you, in good conscience sing the praises of a man who we now know, had 34 wives, 11 of whom were married to other men, another 11 of whom were teenagers, as young as 14?"

He said we'd just have to agree to disagree.

I said, "I'm not agreeing to that. I have the evidence. You tell me why I should, despite the evidence, raise my children to believe racist myths, long after they've been debunked."

He couldn't give me a reason except an emotional appeal to just have faith.

I told him I had faith, just not faith in Joseph Smith. I still had faith in god, little god, Nature, but I had my doubts about the God who performed miracles in the Bible, after 9-11.

Where was God on 9-11?

He had no answer and tried to instill fear in me about how I'd be giving up my eternal family and Priesthood, when I didn't have all the answers either.

I told him I wasn't afraid because I didn't believe in myths, long after they'd been debunked. I kind of like reality. And I'm going to raise my kids to accept scientific facts, which I'd think you'd appreciate as a lawyer.

He said his facts differed from my 'facts'.

I asked him what his facts said about racism in the book of Mormon. He gave me another emotional story about how he wanted to baptize a really great black man in Europe on his mission, but he couldn't because he was black. He was heartbroken. Then, 25yrs later, when he heard on the news that blacks would receive the priesthood, he pulled over the car and cried, for pure joy, because he felt that God had answered his most fervent prayers for 25years.

I said that's sweet, but why'd he put the ban in place in the first place if it was a mistake? I mean, he's God, right, how do you reconcile him banning blacks from entering the temple when women got into the temple all the time with no priesthood?

He asked me what I did believe then.

I said, "There is one part of Mormon Doctrine I believe more than you."

He said, "Oh really?"

I said, "Yeah, the 11th Article of Faith, the part where it talks about allowing all men the right to follow the dictates of their conscience."

He replied, "We'd never want to prevent you from following the dictates of your conscience."

I said, "Then why are you here lecturing me about the error of my ways and threatening me with losing my family?"

He said, "I wasn't threatening you."

I said, "Yeah, you kinda did, when you warned me that I'd be giving up my eternal family. That sounds like something somebody in the mafia would say to somebody who snitched."

I told him I'd agree to not come threaten him at his house with losing his eternal family, as long as he'd agree to do me the same courtesy.

He agreed. We shook hands and parted ways friends, sort of.

My former Bishop was my wife's OB/Gyn and he actually cared about her and our kids (who he delivered) a lot. He didn't care much for me after I left, I don't think, but he was always keen on my wife and kids.

He's one of the reasons why I thought the cult must not be that batshit crazy if my wife's OB/Gyn believes this.

Turns out he's as delusional as any other Mormon.
And scared of death, so he believes all the Mormon lies, hook, line and sinker.
And I'm the first to admit it works great for him.
He's got a huge wealthy Mormon family, the gorgeous wife, the huge house, great life, prestigious profession, a lot of respect in the community. Everybody loves the guy and his family. No disrespect. The guy is a hero.
But he's ok with the racism in the Book of Mormon.
His kids and grandkids are AOK with it.
I'm not.
Neither are my kids or grandkids.
And for that, I'm grateful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2022 10:32PM by schrodingerscat.

I was told by a member of the First Quorum of the seventy missions are to convert the missionary. As far as the church goes it continues to grow it’s numbers on wards formed. Not huge growth but not shrinking either.

It is what it is. Mormonism has always been an odd duck and people have predicted it’s failure since the beginning. The truth is the odd duck rolls on. At least the Brigham Young splinter of it.

I guess no missionary has ever qualified for Food Stamps ( I think now called SNAP) bc the authorities would need to verify source & amout of person's income...

The church gives them so little for food and supplies. I don't see how they can possibly get by without additional financial help, especially since prices have escalated lately.

summer Wrote:
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> The church gives them so little for food and
> supplies. I don't see how they can possibly get by
> without additional financial help, especially
> since prices have escalated lately.

I reminisced about serving a church mission with my Mom and brought up that we missionaries were always looking for ways to save $$$ and scrounge for food.

And like a true TBM, she responded- Well Messy all you needed to do was to ask for more money, I would have gladly sent you more money. (Obviously, she didn't like hearing me complain about skipping meals and one of my companions would routinely shoplift- I regret being complicit in distracting the cashier so we could steal fruit juice on the cart's bottom rack)

Naturally, the topic that she has conveniently forgot was when she told me to ask the wards that I was serving in to pay my monthly 350 bill to Salt Lake. She wrote the church a hot check- an account that she had closed. Well the church noticed BIG TIME!!!

I received all kinds of calls from the church mission office, the church missionary department. I had to call the mission prez (and he already disliked me at this point). I had to call the ward clerk and the stake clerk. Big, big mess!

Missionaries would have to surrender their state driver's licenses and or id's to establish residency to qualify for public assistance. That would most definitely would place the church in bad light, correct?

I think a big part of it is about church image, too. I went on a mission to central Europe, and the local members LOVED the missionaries. They felt a sense of pride because we were there, working in their country.

So while I think a lot of the mission is there to indoctrinate and keep the missionaries tied to the church after their mission, it is also to help the local members in far-off places feel like the church is stronger than it appears. You may only have a branch in a far-off country of 20-30 members, but hey, if the church deems it important to send 2 young missionaries to this little hamlet in the middle of nowhere, the church must be extremely strong, right?

Same idea with these stupid little temples popping up everywhere. It's the optic, making the church look incredibly big and strong and thriving.

Bunch of crap!

But those standards rarely coincide with "not working."

In terms of a business the church works well. Too bad it isn't publicly traded and only publicly paraded as a religion.

I've heard the boloney about the purpose of the mission being to strengthen the missionary. That's what the missionaries are told in the MTC - at least that was my experience in my first meeting when the teacher asked us all why we chose to go on missions. Most answered "to baptize," or "to serve" which were the wrong answers. There was only one true answer and that was "to strengthen the missionary." If that was the correct answer my mission did the opposite.

Once in the mission field the mission purpose shifted from strengthening/converting the missionary to baptizing and numbers. If the numbers on the weekly report to the mission president weren't high, we were reprimanded. General authorities came to mission conference and chastised us for low numbers. The field was white, blah, blah, blah. It was our fault there were so few baptisms in a low baptizing European country. It was all on our shoulders. It was demoralizing.

My mission did not strengthen me. It did the opposite. I spent most of my time knocking on doors and being rejected. Is that strengthening? I experienced depression, anxiety and night terrors. Every day was full of dread. I gave it my all and it about destroyed me.

I didn't learn anything on my mission that would help me in my post mission life. I did learn to endure to the end, which isn't necessarily a good thing. Sometimes walking away from a bad situation is a better lesson to learn. I did learn how to use public transportation and read bus/train schedules. That hasn't been much use for me as I seldom take public transportation.

As far as missionaries covering up church lies - most of them don't know about the lies or dark history because LDS Inc. hides it or just doesn't talk about it. I didn't know about the Joseph Smith/Freemason connection till one of the investigators brought it up. Most investigators knew about polygamy and asked questions. Mormon and polygamy are synonymous. I think many missionaries learn a lot from investigators who ask questions, which is one of the reasons so many missionaries lose their testimony. They learn unpleasant stuff they didn't know about.

When I came home I gave a glowing report of my mission. I'd been groomed to do so. After the glow wore off, so did my testimony. It was a slow process, but I eventually quit the Mormon church. My mission experience got the process started. I was anything but strengthened.

When I was on my mish ('67 - '69 in the midwest), we had as props for an open house, an image of Joe sitting at a table with the 'gold plates' in front of him (No Rock in a hat, go figure) & a 'scribe' behind a curtain writing down Joe's words... er, 'Translation'; my companion pointed out to me that this image was misleading...

Lesson there was (?)

I think a big part of it is about church image, too. I went on a mission to central Europe, and the local members LOVED the missionaries. They felt a sense of pride because we were there, working in their country. They were special, because they were lucky enough to have missionaries not only in their country, but in their tiny little town. The church MUST be strong if there are enough missionaries worldwide to send two young men to a tiny hamlet in the middle of Europe, where there are only 10-20 people in a branch.

So while I think a lot of the mission is there to indoctrinate and keep the missionaries tied to the church after their mission, it is also to help the local members in far-off places feel like the church is stronger than it appears. You may only have a branch in a far-off country of 20-30 members, but hey, if the church deems it important to send 2 young missionaries to this little hamlet in the middle of nowhere, the church must be extremely strong, right?

Same idea with these stupid little temples popping up everywhere. It's the optic, making the church look incredibly big and strong and thriving.

Bunch of crap and a smoke-and-mirrors exercise in deception.

It works for ChurchCo or they’d end it

just sayin’