I don't have a mother. I have a woman who gave birth to me, loved me as a baby and tossed me into the others she had, to care for me when I got too old to love.

When I was molested by someone outside the family I already knew what it was like and why it was the currency of love.

Real love was for babies and the lucky.

Here is an interesting story from Hollywood. Poignantly put, having a mother makes all the difference in the world.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/celebrity/former-30s-child-star-cora-sue-collins-reveals-why-she-left-hollywood-the-single-best-decision-of-my-life/ar-AA14XPTw



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2022 11:56AM by Elder Berry.

Sadly, that was an all too common story. You are right, a strong mother made all the difference for her. Hopefully things are somewhat better now.

Not really O/T. Because Mormonism. And others on the more fundy scale.

Some of the beliefs, traditions, imperatives seem to overcome a mother's protective instinct towards her young.

We've all seen, and experienced, how one's early life experiences, including the major one of how we are parented, affects us as we mature and separate and theoretically go our own way.

Many go on to parent their offspring as they themselves were - it seems instinctive and many, as we know, teach their kids what they were taught.

When my sibs and I started hearing ourselves sounding like our father with some of the same words, phrases and even attitudes, quite automatically, at times we were amused, or shocked, depending on what came out of our mouths unawares. Not meaning to sound negative against my father, but just that we somehow picked up his language (he was the world's mightiest swear-er I ever knew then or since) and attitudes (strict British stiff upper lip things), especially my brothers. It was startling at first to see how 'contagious' pieces of one's upbringing can be. You have to be highly aware and unstick the bits you don't want.

I'm thinking today, again, of kids growing up in Mormon polygamy, for instance. Even though they may suffer emotionally and physically from the belief system and way of life, many stay in and bring up their own children in the same way. (I'm not intending to indicate that it would be easy to live in a closed society like that).

"Too old to love". Heartbreaking words, EB.

I'm always so glad you're here with us. And to know you seem to have a wonderful family of your own. You done good, despite all. Your contributions doubtless help other readers here.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2022 01:38PM by Nightingale.

> Some of the beliefs, traditions, imperatives seem
> to overcome a mother's protective instinct towards
> her young.

Absolutely true and absolutely Mormon.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Some of the beliefs, traditions, imperatives
> seem
> > to overcome a mother's protective instinct
> towards
> > her young.
>
> Absolutely true and absolutely Mormon.


Yes indeed.

Same with JWs and other fundy groups. How else explain a mother who would refuse lifesaving medical treatment for a beloved child because "God said so", according to the overseers of whichever particular faith group she happened to be in.

With JWs, it's the blood transfusion teaching, of course. If you look up which religions don't believe in medical science, JWs come up first, and there are more JW members than members in other offshoot faith groups so that's a significant number of people potentially avoiding that simple lifesaving medical treatment. The fact of JWs coming up first in a search of anti-medical-science believers can give a false impression as they do seek all other medical care but balk at that one treatment (blood transfusion or any surgery or other treatment that may require one).

With Christian Scientists, it's a belief in "spiritual healing" ("alternative healing methods") to the point of, as one example, experiencing potentially deadly epidemics of measles and other unnecessary illness in children due to not being vaccinated.

I have been astounded during the pandemic to see the numbers of Evangelical Christians who rejected the recommended vaccines, a simple preventive measure that helps the vaxxed individual as well as anyone with whom they come into contact and assists in safeguarding the general population, because that's how vaccines work.

One EV Christian minister in the US advised her flock to avoid the vaccine as "She claimed that Jesus was himself protection from the flu and suggested that people avoid the virus by repeating the phrase, “I’ll never have the flu.”

Yeah, that'll work. "I'll never get old. I'll never get old. I'll never...".

There's also, of course, the imperative in the Bible to "obey secular authorities" so how does one square that with rejecting government mandates I wonder. I guess it's in the same realm, perhaps, as being a conscientious objector but I think that's a poor attempt at paralleling those principles.

Here's a brief write-up about the beliefs of a few main groups of religious believers who reject some or all medical treatment:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/07/health/religion-medical-treatment/index.html

I cannot get inside the mindset of a mother who can accept such beliefs that could rob a child of health and even life. Other than to try and imagine how it could be to believe so strongly that one's child will be healed directly by God instead of realizing that the treatments are already right there - in the person of the doctor and the solutions being offered.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2022 02:06PM by Nightingale.

I was reading on a nurse's message board that with JWs, they often try to get the mom alone with the child. Apparently that way she is more likely to accept a blood transfusion. When the church elders are present, that's when the firm refusal happens.

It may be yet another instance where women are being religiously bullied by those in charge, who happen to be men.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It may be yet another instance where women are
> being religiously bullied by those in charge, who
> happen to be men.

Yes, summer. Although you accept that teaching as a matter of course, whether you're born in or convert, it's a different matter when the actual situation arises, especially in the case of a child.

I've always felt that in no way should "the elders" (leadership) show up en force in such circumstances and certainly shouldn't exert pressure on frantic parents. I'm never sure if it's the involved parents or someone else who alerts the elders to the situation.

It is a general (and major) JW teaching that is fairly easy to accept in theory in the general course of events but never should JW leaders force an individual to adhere to it if they change their mind in an unexpected emergency situation. The choice should be the individual's, the parent/s', not one enforced by an outsider.

This type of situation alone demonstrates the seamy underbelly of that particular denomination. We're all individuals, free to make our own choices, until it comes to a medical emergency? It is offensive and unjust.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2022 03:07PM by Nightingale.

Nightingale wrote in part:

"We're all individuals, free to make our own choices, until it comes to a medical emergency? It is offensive and unjust."

Inside religion, no matter what religion you choose, you are not free to make *all* of your own individual choices. This is also true with countries and their legal systems.

blindguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nightingale wrote in part:
>
> "We're all individuals, free to make our own
> choices, until it comes to a medical emergency? It
> is offensive and unjust."
>
> Inside religion, no matter what religion you
> choose, you are not free to make *all* of your own
> individual choices. This is also true with
> countries and their legal systems.

I get what you're saying, blindguy, but in my experience there are moderate churches where pastors/ministers don't interfere in a congregant's private life.

Perhaps if you are deeply involved in the church or especially if you represent it in some particular pastoral function there would be certain requirements to be met with regard to behaviour, interests, activities, affiliations and other aspects of one's non-church life. I understand that if one is representing the church to other adherents or especially outsiders.

I have attended a couple of Mennonite churches at various times, just because, again, I went with friends. They seemed mainstream to me. Nobody ever asked me personal questions about my life outside the church. I even assisted in some of the church programs (i.e. refugee sponsorship and assistance). Even though I represented the church on committees and in other ways while engaged in those activities nobody from the church objected to the fact that I hadn't been baptized there or even inquired into my private life.

I have felt the freedom to come and go to meetings and various functions at any church within Christian denominations that I chose and to engage in some of their outreaches (i.e. to people who were unhoused and otherwise living in poverty) without being expected to adhere to their teachings or even attend their meetings.

Perhaps they assumed I had a basic level of Christian belief - I don't know. Perhaps too if I had been obviously and egregiously non-observant of some of their tenets that would have been an issue for them.

But basically I fit in just as myself the way I am.

That is my experience anyway.

I'm not saying the imperative to conform is not a major consideration in many faith groups because I know it is. But not 100%, again in my own experience.

Too, I'll make the blanket statement that even though we share a continent, the USA and Canada are very different societies. That undoubtedly accounts for some of the differences in our experiences.

I often go walking through meadows of massacre.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2022 06:38PM by Elder Berry.

Thanks for responding NG. The rest of the story is also sad. My mother often seems more bothered by her offspring than grateful for them.

And yet we all go back in our own way...

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for responding NG.

Always, EB.

> The rest of the story is
> also sad. My mother often seems more bothered by
> her offspring than grateful for them.

That _is_ very sad. She's missing out on something that could be wonderful - good relationships with one's own children.

> And yet we all go back in our own way...

A bond so strong it can be difficult to break away from. That a parent or a child can do so in the name of religion shows how much power certain belief systems exert. Powerful enough to come between parent and child, brother and sister, etc. Scary because of the potential dire impacts.

As for going back, it's perhaps more evidence of the pull that exists between blood relatives, just by nature of biology. When my parents returned to England for a visit 10 years after emigrating to Canada, I didn't know my cousins, uncles, aunts or grandparents as my parents had left for Canada when I was only 3 years old, my sister 4. Three more kids were born in Canada. And yet there was a familiarity about them all, especially my loving grandparents. I didn't actually recollect any of them but still there were spontaneous warm feelings between us. I've always thought it's partly because they did know me as a young child and partly due to biology - they resembled us in looks and there was just an automatic bond amongst us. We all started yakking like we'd seen each other just the week before.

I feel for those who don't experience such familial bonds and the unconditional love they can evoke. My mum's dad, for instance, was so kind and loving towards us and he and I enjoyed years of mutual letter-writing back and forth across the Atlantic. I've kept some of his letters and they still bring me joy.

Family. It can be so wonderful. Or so not. Religionists who want to break up families have a lot to answer for. The JWs, for example, tried to keep me from my family when they needed me during my dad's medical crisis.

What kind of "love" is that to teach?

You can only love someone who holds the same religious views as you?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2022 01:11PM by Nightingale.

So sad.