Columbia linguistics professors and author John McWhorter speaking about his book, Nine Nasty Words - "English in the Gutter"

"The message of his book", he says, "is that we need to rethink our ideas about profanity altogether. 

"The real forbidden words", he says, "should be slurs, such as the N-word or “f—-t,” which originally meant a bundle of sticks but morphed to mean a placeholder soldier, then a worthless person, a worthless woman and finally in the late 1800s, a homosexual man. 
But “the idea of s–t and f–k are profane? I find that Mormon and old-fashioned,” he says. “We need to stop getting our knickers in a twist when some celebrity says s- -t.”

True story:

My TBM to the Max brother and SIL who is a prig decided to watch Crocodile Dundee with Mom and Dad cuz it's such a fun movie but my SIL had been warned about one F word popping up in a certain spot in the movie. So all during the movie she kept pausing and asking is this the scene? Over and over.

Even my TBM to the Max mother later told me it was so annoying they couldn't enjoy the movie at all and she said, "I"m an old lady and I've heard the word a few times in my life. Geez. It doesn't kill you".

After that they found a place that "sanitizes" DVDs for you and everybody lived happily ever after.

I like the point this McWhorter makes a lot. Mormons as the poster child of focusing attention in the wrong direction! These are the people who made coffee evil after all.


Anyways, makes it so much more fun to swear around family. And drink coffee.

Years ago had a device that hooked up to the VHS player and would take out the bad words and put in good words in their place (the TV would go silent and sub-titles would show the good text or word, I has gotten this for my kids sake), anyway while watching the movie Toy Story it would take out the word Woodie (Tom Hanks main character) and substitute the the word feelings. Anyway years later I asked my Wife where my Daughters had learned such "salty" language and She informed me "school"

This reminds me of the era when basic broadcasters would show movies and dub over the "bad words" Like in Breakfast Club, instead of "you d--k!" it was "you bag of sweaty socks" I remember watching the broadcast version of 16 candles and fast times at ridgemont high. I can't remember the dubbing, but I remember fast times had scenes cut and an extra scene in it.

It's crazy, with the exception of slurs words have only the power you assign to them.

is the 'Clean Video place still in business?

I thought film makers sued them for copyright infringement...

That all happened quite a long time ago. But yes, I think they did put the cleaning services out of business.

I recently saw a cleaned up version of a movie in a grocery store. I can't remember which movie it was now, but it wasn't even that bad. I suspect there are still a few do-gooders who clean up films for people here in Mormon land.

"The message of his book", he says, "is that we need to rethink our ideas about profanity altogether.

"The real forbidden words", he says, "should be slurs, such as the N-word or “f—-t,” which originally meant a bundle of sticks but morphed to mean a placeholder soldier, then a worthless person, a worthless woman and finally in the late 1800s, a homosexual man.
But “the idea of s–t and f–k are profane? I find that Mormon and old-fashioned,” he says. “We need to stop getting our knickers in a twist when some celebrity says s- -t.”

COMMENT: TO be sure, the standard cuss words indicated here were taboo in my house growing up in the 50s. They have now become commonplace, and even at times boring in their overuse. So, if common use removes them from their original profane meaning, then yes, we need to rethink what constitutes profanity. But admittedly, I do have a bit of nostalgia here.

First, cuss words--because of their vulgar character--were originally supposed to be reserved for moments of intense anger, frustration, or disapproval. In that regard, they have now become trivial. So, when I now hit my finger with a hammer, "F**k" does not quite express the degree of my "pissed-offed-ness." Or if I am mad at someone, "F**k You" alone--without raised fists--does not quite express the degree of my anger. So, what I am saying is that when the cursedness is removed from what in context was a perfectly 'good' word of emotional expression, maybe a unique and genuinely valuable speech act is lost.

Second: (and my mother would like this objection) These words still retain their original vulgar meanings. "S**t" is not all that pleasant as an image arising from casual conversation. *F**k* is more complex, but if nothing else it is intended as a crude reference to sex, which ideally is supposed to be an act that is more loving and intimate. "F**k-you" is obviously referring to "sticking it to someone," with the visual (if there is one) not so inviting, if not downright crude. The accompanying extended middle finger makes the same point. (After all, we don't use this gesture when approaching our beloved with a humble request for an intimate encounter!) So, again, the new and harmless extended definitions, still involve extended unpleasant imagery, however casual.

In any event, personally I still reserve such words for their original "cuss" and "profane" meaning. But then, I am an old man still set in the ways of my Mormon upbringing. In other words, they don't come out of my mount casually, or flippantly. However, if I hit my finger with a hammer--as Kramer said, I "let the explicatives fly." Thank God, my mother (may she rest in peace) is no longer around to wash my mouth out with soap.

Saying and doing are often disconnected. You can talk like a sailor and live like a nun.

Mormonism can't get away from appearance, words, and outer.

They cut their soul off to spite their grace.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Saying and doing are often disconnected. You can
> talk like a sailor and live like a nun.
>
> Mormonism can't get away from appearance, words,
> and outer.
>
> They cut their soul off to spite their grace.


Made me think of the hypocrisy described by Montgomery in "The Blue Castle".

I've always liked how dog breeders, without blinking, use the word b**ch as it was intended, as an accepted and ordinary word for a female dog. It's even an accepted AKC dog show prize, "Winner's B**ch." Honestly, don't dogs deserve better than to have the name for their females turned into a swear word? What did they ever do to deserve that, apart from maybe licking us to death?

Ditto for using "sh*t" and its variants to mean, well, exactly that, preferably delivered in a dispassionate tone of voice, i.e. "The cat sh@t on the carpet." I get where the author of that book is coming from.

As a teacher of urban kids, their swearing, while annoying, was the least of my problems. If a kid called me a b**tch, my normal response would be, "Spell that word. I'll wait." And invariably, they couldn't. So I would teach them about the "tch" spelling pattern for the /ch/ digraph. Urban teachers seldom blink.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2022 06:29PM by summer.

Aunt Sukey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Columbia linguistics professors and author John
> McWhorter
> "The real forbidden words", he says, "should be
> slurs, such as the N-word

How is the N-word “forbidden” when Nearly every rap song I hear repeats it Ad nauseam, but if a white kid gets caught singing a popular song he gets cancelled?

https://www.alligator.org/article/2022/11/florida-withdraws-scholarship-offer-from-2023-quarterback-commit#:~:text=Florida%20withdrew%20a%20scholarship%20offer,Stokes%20using%20a%20racial%20slur.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How is the N-word “forbidden” when Nearly
> every rap song I hear repeats it Ad nauseam, but
> if a white kid gets caught singing a popular song
> he gets cancelled?


Because Racism.

History.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/08/10/race-n-word-white-black-zw-orig.cnn


https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/us/racism-questions-answers/?active=2

"How come White people can’t use the n-word but some Black people say it all the time?

"Professor Neal Lester, who teaches a course on the n-word at Arizona State University, explains why this question is so loaded.

"There is an undeniable double standard in the use of the n-word. Some Black people freely use it in intimate conversations with one another. Black hip-hop artists use it in their lyrics. Black comedians such as Richard Pryor and Chris Rock have been notorious for using the n-word in their stand-up acts.

"So why then, is it okay for Black people to use it and not Whites?

"There’s no one answer to that question. Some Black people say the word is too repulsive to use in any context, even by other Black folks. They claim that using it reflects “internalized oppression”: Black people unwittingly accepting racist stereotypes.

"But other Black people say they can use the n-word because they have “reclaimed” it and taken the sting out of a slur by using the word as a term of endearment.

"If that doesn’t make sense, consider this comparison. Some women who call each other “b*tch” make a similar claim: We use it as a term of affection.

"Some Black people who use the n-word follow the same logic. Since we have uniquely suffered from the use of the n-word, we’re the only ones who have the right to use it. When we reclaim it, we can use it any way we want. For them, using the n-word isn’t repeating a racial slur; it’s an act of defiance."

—John Blake



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2022 08:39PM by Nightingale.

How white do you need to be before it becomes verboten?
Would it be ok for Obama to use it, when he is as much white as he is black? What about Trevor Noah? Is he black enough to use it, even though he is only half black?
Where’s the line?
If a 1/4 black person sang a rap song with the N word in it would he get his scholarship yanked? Seems like a racist trap.
No matter how different we appear, we are at most, 1/10th of 1% different, white, black, brown, doesn’t really make more than 1/10th of 1% difference, and for somebody’s superficial skin tone they get cancelled for singing a pop song with zero racist intent?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2022 09:34PM by schrodingerscat.

Is this a trick to get us to beg for Water Bear news?

Schrod . . .


Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me? Bull shit!

Odd way to put it, but you have reduced the issue to extreme black and white thinking. You are applying an odd logic to something that needs to stay out of the realm of logic.

It's a word that has caused deep pain and still can. Between certain people it is a term of endearment but can be turned into a knife that cuts deep instantly.

Being gay I am the same with the F word--Fa**ot. Among my friends we may use it. I hear some straight person using it even as a joke and I want them to shut the eff up. Especially when that word is used by those who don't want to be called the N word. Complicated. I've been chased down and escaped narrowly over a chain link fence being called that and made it home bruised and bloody. So I don't want to hear it from anyone but "those in the know", those who bear the scars.

Decency and respect supersede anyone's need to use certain words and we have a lot of them in or society. Slurs for everyone. There's one for you too I'm sure.

Why can't you use the word? Empathy and Class. That's why.


Sometimes six letters are more than the sum of their parts.

I don’t want to use the word. I hate the word and don’t listen to or appreciate music that employs it. I just think it’s increasingly racist to apply a double standard based upon skin color. If it’s a common word used in popular music, people really shouldn’t be punished for singing along to a song, no matter what color their skin is. But they are, if they are white, which is racist AF!

Maybe we can think of it this way:

Blacks get to have their share of jerks who do dumb things just like white people.

Exactly. Ever see the Chris Rock special, "I love Black People but I hate (You fill in the blank). It's brilliant and reminds us that the "We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike" as Maya Angelou said.

I think it’s nice to be polite, considerate of others; I’ve determined that the Universe doesn’t revolve around me…

just sayin’

That's because the universe actually revolves around ME.

;-D