So I left home with my two kids to visit family in Utah for our annual Christmas Family Party. It was fun altogether. However, my there are those in the group younger plus myself who are familiar with the CES and all the troubles of the church and choose not to follow it. On the other side, are my brothers and their families who are still jaded and refuse to look at anything that is not faith promoting.

We got into a conversation about one of my sister in-laws who is fanatical TBM and joking about how she would go twice on sunday to sacrament. One of my other TBM sister in-laws hears this and says "she will have the last laugh" repeated twice.

To paint the picture clear, none of these TBM's will listen to reason or investigate the truths that put the church in an ugly light. Yet, they are all convinced that it is true. For the sake of the party, I didn't say another word.

However, if I chose to speak up, I would have said: "How can anyone have a firm conviction of anything being truth when they have not fully vetted the facts of such an item good, bad, and ugly? Picking and choosing only the facts that are appealing to one's point of view, well, hell! Isn't that the definition of Bias?"

Where is the logic is this type of behavior?

"She will have the last laugh."

Exactly the sort of think my mother would have said. And look how I turned out. ::smirk::


You should have asked "OK, how many of you think Russel M Nelson is a fallen prophet because he told people to get vaccinated against covid?"

That could spark an interesting discussion.

Follow up with "what do you think of the LDS Church endorsing a law to protect same-sex marriage, and having representatives at the White House to witness the signing of that law?"

I already had blew up with my brother whose wife made that "last laugh" comment about Prop8 a few years ago. Recently, I sent him an e-mail where LDS Inc. is now recognizing same sex marriage to remind him that I predicted this evolution (similar to the Africans and the priesthood). No comment from him and I am sure he didn't even read it.

Once again, selective attention to certain details that supports one's position does not make it true or correct. Hence, bias.

I can only imagine the mental gymnastics they contort themselves into to formulate logical connections to so many missing parts and pieces to the puzzle?

As long as it isn't a loud last laugh...

Your TBM's with their "last laugh" remind me . . . On my mission, it was popular for some elders to tell Mormon-resistant people that joining the church was a a foolproof option because if you follow Mormonism and it turns out to be true you go to the Celestial Kingdom to live with Heavenly Father. But, even is the church turns out not to be true it still gave you the best life possible. So--Win/Win! Right? What's not to like?

When TBM's aren't ignoring facts, they are wrangling them.

The problem is, it's not a great life, being Mormon, unless you ignore and wrangle. And judge in order to maintain your arrogant, supposedly superior, position.

I would pretend not to understand -- "Last laugh about what?" Make her explain herself in detail. lol

LOL, that is good. My brother and his wife are the prototypical TBM holier than thou freaks. It's always ok to share the gospel and your testimony, but don't you dare open up a bag of truths that are not faith promoting.

We only want to hear the good things that put the church in a positive light, anything less is just sneaky anti-mormon propaganda.

I live part time in Utah in a very rural area. I've known many of the neighbors there for many years. The Last Laugh Holier Than Thou TBMs seem to be starting die out. The younger generation replacing them seems to be going through the motions and not too happy about it, if they have not checked out. A good deal are now "Social Mormons" and roll their eyes at the TBM Nazi types.

Hedning Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I live part time in Utah in a very rural area.
> I've known many of the neighbors there for many
> years. The Last Laugh Holier Than Thou TBMs seem
> to be starting die out. The younger generation
> replacing them seems to be going through the
> motions and not too happy about it, if they have
> not checked out. A good deal are now "Social
> Mormons" and roll their eyes at the TBM Nazi
> types.

I'm not trying to help LDS Corp in any fashion, but they would be ahead of the game if they acknowledge that folks attend church for social reasons rather than the only true church tripe.

They literally have a Rameumpton each month.

That is a huge sign that spiritual superiority will trump socially supported programing every time.

But have been actively engaging in facilitating the acceptance of this demographic!

They might not be moving as quickly as some would like but makeno mistake, they know which way the winds are blowing and are keen on finding away to keep/entice people in; even if it means changing once firmly embedded doctrine/practices.

out. It took the gay boyfriend/husband and dealing with the leaders to open my eyes. I went out kicking and screaming. I didn't enjoy church. I thought it was the way I had to live and I'm not a social being. The ward I grew up in was ridiculous. None of my family ever felt like we fit in. BUT I was the most devout one. My parents couldn't have been more shocked, but I think they were more shocked by my husband being gay, etc., and all he did after he left.

When I married him, I still had a small hope that maybe there was something to it. Over time--23 years--I figured it all out. It was ALL life experience.

And like Done & Done said mormonism IS NOT a great life. I ended up where I am because I believed. My whole family and many friends couldn't believe this happened to me of all people. They are still surprised I don't believe, even my youngest brother (he has been out since his teens, but he still wonders if it might be true in the fact that will he be punished).

While they think they have the last laugh, how many of us are enjoying not being tied down to this ridiculous religion. Who didn't go to church yesterday on Christmas. Have to get up and put on nylons!!! and a dress and sit through a BORING meeting with a choir who can't sing very well. My daughter and her husband went. It is such a RELIEF not to be a mormon anymore.

"Where is the logic is this type of behavior?"

Jesus doesn't care if you're stupid.

There is no logic. That's the point. They are emotionally invested in the church. It provides them with a variety of things emotionally (a false sense of superiority, a false sense of security, a ward/fantasy against the despair of inevitable death and the loss of loved ones to the dust forever).

In order to address their beliefs, you have to find out what their emotional investment is and address that. If they fear death for instance and will let the church get away with any evils just to hang onto that dream of afterlife rewards, you have to address the contradictions of those rewards. Immortality is not a reward. We only think it is because instinct makes us fight to survive. The immortality promised by Mormonism is neither good nor desirable. Men get their own planets but are never asked if they wanted that, or that is their dream. What to do with the folks who want something else out of eternity? Women don't get choices. They become brood mares for god making factories. Their children will never know them, they get no glory. They just shut up and make babies for eternity, among the hundreds of others wives their god husband owns. In some terms, that is what you call Hell. And what about families can be together forever? When? How? Not all families. There are empty seats at the table for those of you who have opted out. So is that truly happiness then? Is that truly love if your family members look at your empty spot at the table and have sanctimonious thoughts about how it is good that you didn't get to be there? Are the good then if they don't miss and regret the missing? And if they do miss them, what the heck kind of reward is that? The plan of salvation guarantees that families will show up in the end broken, damaged, with missing components, intentionally separating kindred in isolated tiers.

That's just one example of how you can address the emotional narrative if they feel compelled to protect the story of salvation from death and being with family for eternity. You have to find each emotional point and pull back the curtain for them to see, these are no dreams, these aren't gifts. Even if they sometimes are gifts, they're not ones that anyone good would want.

"There is no logic. That's the point. They are emotionally invested in the church. It provides them with a variety of things emotionally (a false sense of superiority, a false sense of security, a ward/fantasy against the despair of inevitable death and the loss of loved ones to the dust forever)."

You hit the nail square on the head. Good one Blackcoatsdaughter!

This brother I am referring to, also has cancer and may have a few more years to live after surviving 5 years of long treatment. He also is very opinionated and prideful. He won't take orders from a younger brother and he is always quick to dole out his wacky advice as if he has ran it through the empirical scientific method a million times. His wife is the exact same or even more so than him. In spite of all the silliness they may have witnessed in the church, they are dumb enough to wager all they got that the Morg is true.

It's incredible to think that human can stoop to a level of such irrational behavior to follow some perceived view in the face of so much fact?

"That's just one example of how you can address the emotional narrative"

Ay, there's the rub. You can't do so with reason. The church is their identity. They will take any questioning of the church as a personal attack.

I only asked questions when I noticed that I didn't really want any of what the church offered in the afterlife. If you can get them to that point you might have a chance.

It can be as simple as framing it from your own pov. "The plan of salvation wasn't good enough for me, especially with all the questions left unanswered." And then cue all those questions and explanations for why the proposed Mormon afterlife doesn't measure up. It's not a reasoned discussion. It's addressing the emotional weakness of the story Mormonism tells.

For instance, instead of pointing out how the atonement is extortion and not a gift, or trying to point out that it is unlikely that Joseph Smith didn't have sex with the girls he married, I can instead talk about how those things make me feel. I can talk about how allowing an innocent to take the fall for my crimes, and being bathed in blood doesn't make me feel good or like I'm a good person. I can talk about how even if JS didn't have sex with his underage brides, I can't trust a man that tries to convince me it is right and "God's plan" for a grown man to manipulate a young girl into marriage with him. Such an adult enterprise with adult implications and responsibilities that she isn't ready for. And that's setting aside the fact that a prophet has a power imbalance with any woman, let alone how a 14 year old can't really reject or say no to his authority and influence, even if she wanted to.

It's not reasoning. It's very messy, very subjective, talking about the ick factor or every little thing. You just have to find what that person's emotional posts of support are and help them reframe the emotional language.

I think that's the best way to approach it (if you can do so at all,) as to how a given thing makes you feel. It's much harder for someone to argue against your personal feelings.

After reading the thread title I was expecting the next sentence to be....but it was closed!