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Posted by: Eric K ( )
Date: January 02, 2023 10:54AM

Two women, who kept their JW.org badges concealed behind their coat lapels, rang the door bell early this morning. Both appeared to be in their early 60s. They were well dressed just as we have noticed in our travels as they set up JW.org kiosks at music and other events. I immediately asked if they were JWs. They nodded their heads. I then started my normal spiel for JWs at the door.

Me, 'I was in Finland in the 1970s. At that time the Watchtower, especially in Finland, was proclaiming the end of the world in 1975. Many JWs quit their jobs, sold their businesses and took their children out of school. Well, the world did not end. A number of these poor folks committed suicide and your organization lost over 1/3 of its membership after destroying so many lives. You need to leave the Watchtower and join a respectable organization that actually does good in the world.'

As with other JWs that have knocked on our door, they quickly ran down the steps. I have tried longer spiels in the past, but they ran away so fast I could not finish, so I have condensed it down to the message above.

I mentioned once that years ago I was wearing a bright red blood donor t-shirt when the JWs showed up. It was not intentional. I just was wearing that shirt around the house. There never said a thing and also quickly got off the porch with their eyes bulging.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2023 10:55AM by Eric K.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: January 02, 2023 11:11AM

Isn't today the official national New Year holiday? I wonder if they are they out bugging everyone on a holiday intentionally since more people would be home.

I once had JW's shake their feet at me when I wasn't very complementary about their religion. Going door to door to get ridiculed must make them feel like they are really takin' it for Jesus.

The tee shirt coincidence was perfect.

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Posted by: DebbiePA ( )
Date: January 03, 2023 12:55PM

Many years ago, my ex and I actually had JWs knock on our door on Christmas morning. We were in our PJs, but answered the door anyway. Didn't engage too much, but geeze Louise. You may not celebrate it, but respect other people's religion.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: January 03, 2023 01:22PM

Wow. How incredibly clueless can they get!

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: January 03, 2023 01:55PM

They don't celebrate Christmas so what else have they got to do that day?!

That is indeed totally clueless. The JWs I knew had more of a grip than that.

It was always excruciatingly embarrassing for me as a young JW to be there while the senior JW kept on preaching even after frustrated householders would repeatedly say "not interested". I was a big fan of No Means No.

But even the zealous overseers I knew didn't expect us to preach on everybody else's Christmas Day. That is beyond rude.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: January 03, 2023 01:58PM

Yep.
And they come to YOUR PROPERTY to do it!

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Posted by: Honest TB[long] ( )
Date: January 03, 2023 05:42PM

In the Great and Abominable Church of the Devil they celebrate the birth of Big Brother Jesus on December 25th. But in the church of the Lamb of God we learned through modern revelation to Holy Joe that Jesus was actually born on April 6th. So, it looks like you got Christmas wrong.

I would go crazy for thinking like I do if it wasn't for the beloved Correlation program doing a wondrous job on wiring my brain to think the peculiar way I think. That's why I get to believe I'm normal and non-delusional as I get sucked dry, worn-out, and guilt-tripped on everything and I get to believe that all these exmormons are clueless lost souls who have to live without the blessings of paying tithing, chapel toilet cleanings, and obedience to power hungry men. I can thank the beloved Correlation program for this joy.

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Posted by: Northern_Lights ( )
Date: January 03, 2023 05:56PM

The "white handbook" for missionaries at least in the '90s suggested to track on Xmass day because people are off work and families are together.

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Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: January 03, 2023 11:28PM

Good grief! That's probably included to make a twisted point, because each mishie will only see two Christmas days, but 728 non-Christmas days. Why give such rude and boorish instructions for two days?

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: January 04, 2023 01:29PM

Gordon B. Stinky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good grief! That's probably included to make a
> twisted point, because each mishie will only see
> two Christmas days, but 728 non-Christmas days.
> Why give such rude and boorish instructions for
> two days?

I remember some sort of edict to be doing missionary work on Xmas. We would "under-report" discussions taught from the day before and report one or two for Xmas day. Usually, missionaries would gather at several members' homes for lunch and dinner. I always had several offers to choose from, but the selfish pricks of zone leaders were often left out, poetic justice!

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Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: January 03, 2023 06:43PM

Yikes

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: January 02, 2023 12:20PM

I would not have any patience for them either, although I would focus on their mandatory shunning for those who leave the church. That's an awful story about Finland, Eric.

My private community does not allow soliciting or proselytizing of any kind, although once in a blue moon someone will test that (usually a "survey taker" who is quickly hounded off.) I remember when I lived in New England that the JW women would often bring a child with them on their door-to-door efforts, I suppose in an effort to keep things civil. Well, you can be civil to them, but still tell the truth.

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Posted by: moehoward ( )
Date: January 02, 2023 12:58PM

I noticed JWs all over Europe in 2022. Interestingly, they all seemed about 60 or older and "appeared as normal people". Never say anybody talking to them, very weird.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: January 02, 2023 03:35PM

I remember when a very nicely dressed JW woman approached me in a store. Her hair was done, and her accessories and jewelry were on point. She talked about the desire to live in Paradise. I looked her over, thinking, you look like you are living in Paradise right now. We both do.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 02, 2023 02:06PM

I've said this before, but the last time the JW's visited I opened the door and said, "Not interested. We already belong to a cult."

They laughed and walked away. I was impressed that they appreciated the humor.

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Posted by: Hedning ( )
Date: January 02, 2023 08:23PM


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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: January 02, 2023 08:45PM

We're true heathens.

;-)

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Posted by: shortbobgirl ( )
Date: January 03, 2023 03:56PM

I grew up in a community with a significant Jewish population so I would smile and say my Rabbi says you’re full of it and close the door.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2023 03:56PM by shortbobgirl.

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Posted by: amiable ( )
Date: January 02, 2023 02:34PM

And what about their concerted efforts to cover up the child molesters amongst their elders. There appears to be validity in those accusations, right? In any case, I don't want them coming to my door.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: January 02, 2023 07:06PM

I passed two pleasant young JW women with their literature rack displayed on a busy main street this past Friday morning before the New Year’s weekend. Of course, Christmas and New Year are holiday celebrations that JWs do not observe, among others. At least now they only say hello instead of trying to aggressively proselytize or hold you up in unwanted conversation.

I was prompted by the post from ‘amiable’ above to look up WatchTower and child abuse. Of course, I’ve known before about the accusations. This (long) article below, from The Atlantic, lays out a lot of information, and proof:

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/03/the-secret-jehovahs-witness-database-of-child-molesters/584311/

Two people quoted in the article are Lloyd Evans & Mark O’Donnell, two men with a mountain of documented evidence against The WatchTower Society (WTS) about child abuse in their ranks and the society’s deliberate cover-ups spanning many years.

Excerpts – CAUTION: Potentially disturbing material about child abuse:

First - an example of how the WTS is dishonest about its own history and has no problem with twisting reality to meet its own needs (i.e. to preserve the myth of unchanging and 100% accurate doctrine).

“In 2010, it [WTS] introduced the Overlapping Generations theory, which claims that the end will come before the death of everyone who was alive at the same time as anyone who was alive in 1914.”

Comment: I left before 2010 and haven’t kept up with all the changes, especially with their doctrinal teachings. I’ve never heard of the Overlapping Generations theory before.

Apparently, they’ve been able to modify their previous predictions/doctrines without losing much traction, perhaps partly due to JW members being well trained to avoid asking questions and to trust the leaders over and above any other source in this universe.


Article: “Kimmy [a female ex-JW] had grown up believing that overzealous Witnesses, not Watchtower, had chosen that date.”

Comment: “That date” refers to Armageddon – The sentence above shows how the Society can fool its members by dispensing inaccurate (i.e. lies) about its own teachings and other aspects of the WTS and its inner workings. It seems unbelievable that a member could be so uninformed as to believe this flagrant falsehood about their calculations and their long-held belief and teaching re 1914 and Armageddon.

What is so stupid about lying about their prophesied date of the coming of Armageddon is that one can easily check the WTS’s own literature on this, a topic they spout about incessantly. It’s their entire raison d'être you could say.

This mindset that WT leaders encourage, as seen in that one example above (i.e. encouraging ignorance by instructing that members should only source info from the WTS) allows the events described below to exist and flourish.


From the article, re WTS and child abuse:

“In 2016, a royal commission in Australia found that Watchtower demonstrated a “serious failure” to protect children, including not reporting more than 1,000 alleged perpetrators of sexual abuse (more than half of whom have confessed to committing the abuse) and at least 1,800 victims in that country since 1950.”

“Rooted in Deuteronomy 19:15—“No single witness may convict another for any error or any sin that he may commit”—the two-witness rule states that, barring a confession, no member of the organization can be officially accused of committing a sin without two credible eyewitnesses who are willing to corroborate the accusation. Critics say this rule has helped turn Witness communities into havens for child molesters, who rarely commit crimes in the presence of bystanders.”

Comment: I’ve never heard this before either – that there has to be two witnesses to abuse – how realistic is it to expect that a perp will bring a witness along? This condemns the victim to silence (why speak out if you don’t have a corroborating witness?) and/or to being re-victimized (because nobody knows that it occurred the first time or subsequently).


Article: “The elders told Conti [a woman who states that she was abused at age 9 by an adult JW man] that without a second witness to the molestation, there was nothing they could do.
“… she sued Watchtower, her former congregation, and Kendrick. During depositions, the elders admitted that they’d long known Kendrick had a history of child molestation—they knew before they paired him with Conti for door-to-door ministry, and before they rejected her story about the abuse. In 2012, a jury awarded Conti $28 million, believed to be the largest jury verdict ever for a single victim in a child-abuse case against a religious organization."

“Watchtower discouraged elders from reporting wrongdoing to civil authorities. “There is ‘a time to keep quiet,’ when ‘your words should prove to be few’ (Ecclesiastes 3:7; 5:2),” it read. “Improper use of the tongue by an elder can result in serious legal problems for the individual, the congregation, and even the Society.”

“In 2002, one former elder said the number [of alleged pedophiles] was 23,720."

“…the U.S., which has a Witness population of 1.2 million, the number of alleged American abusers in the database would be 18,000."

“As a 12-year-old, she [Kimmy] went to the elders in her congregation for help. They told her she couldn’t report her mother to the police, “because it would make the organization look bad,” she recalled. They discouraged her from seeking counseling, because a therapist might blame the religion or get the authorities involved. Finally, the elders asked Kimmy a question: If her mother did end up killing her, could that prevent Jehovah from resurrecting her at Armageddon? “Of course, I said no,” Kimmy said, rolling her eyes. “They told me, ‘Go home and obey your mother.’”


Comment: Kimmy said that her mother (who was mentally ill) abused her and her sister, as well as their cats. Kimmy has spent much time and effort in her life rescuing cats. She says it’s “easy psychology” to figure out why.


Article: “Kim’s husband, a former JW, was “wary of being labeled an apostate”.

Comment: I can relate to this. ‘Apostate’ is the most appalling thing you can be (apparently worse than being a child molester, as seen in this article – and others). The mere possibility of this keeps a lot of people quiet – me included (not that I ever knew about physical or sexual abuse – I hope I would not have ignored such).


ETA: Oh. I just recalled that my (former) friend, also in Quebec as a missionary, was excessively strict with his (adopted) son and would often spank him harshly for the flimsiest excuse. I spoke to his wife several times about it but she was deep into the 'obedience' thing - not only does a female have to obey the WTS but also their husband. I was living with them at the time and I had to move out because I couldn't stand it any more. (Her husband and I had been good friends before we went to Quebec. But something changed with him when he met and married her - in about a NY minute - and took on raising her son, his first time being a dad).

I regret not reporting this but I too was into the obedience thing for a while. Others in the congregation knew about it as well (because he would do it at meetings also).

When the crowd accepts something it can make you second-guess yourself and your own reactions.

So, I regret my statement above about how I think I would have reported abuse. Obviously, in this case, I didn't.

I didn't want to just edit out my comment above. I don't really know why. But it's there and so I'll leave it there.


Returning to original post:

Article: “In front of the [Australian] commission [investigating allegations of child abuse], Jackson became the first active member of Watchtower’s Governing Body to acknowledge that “child abuse is a problem right throughout the community.” He also admitted that in most cases, children who make such charges against Watchtower are telling the truth.”

-----

Three words spring to mind: Ignorance. Obedience. Isolation.

These words describe the environment I experienced within the WTS organization. At least the last two – obedience and isolation – work well to keep the ones in power in their places and the victims silent, seemingly beyond help. And ignorance seems inevitable when your entire world shrinks to include only the WTS.

It can take a great deal of strength to leave it all behind, especially if one’s family is in, if one’s entire life experience has been the organization (as it calls itself) and when members have been socialized to obey and believe without question. Too, the WTS keeps its members isolated by discouraging them from dating, marrying or even socializing outside the organization. Too, they aren’t even allowed to civilly greet any former member they come across. This happened to me in person twice, when former good friends scuttled away from me when we met in passing, and from a distance when my former pals, JW missionaries who I had gone with to Quebec to also be a missionary, shunned me when I left to come back home to help my non-JW family after a serious accident my Dad had suffered.

It can be difficult when you’re in to measure the amount of control they subtly and gradually exert over members, including converts.

When I left I still “co-operated” in a way with the WTS as I took measures to stay away from JWs I had known to avoid influencing them. {{slaps head}}

One example of that, which I still deeply regret, is when a JW friend who was a missionary in Quebec with me, wrote to me after I had returned home to ask me why I had left the WTS (over and above leaving Quebec to help my family back in B.C.). I was still in obedience mode and, as a former member, did not write back to her (because they disfellowship people for being in contact with apostates, meaning anyone who had left). I still think of her and hope that somehow our previous friendly interactions had prompted her to think and question and maybe get out herself. She obviously had my home address but I never heard from her again.

Some regrets dig in and never dissipate. Too bad for me – my chosen life motto was No Regrets. Big life lesson: That’s pretty much impossible. Because you don’t know what you don’t know until sometimes it’s too late.

I have often thought I would have lost my mind if I hadn't returned to a more vital, interesting, intriguing, changing, mysterious, enlightening world. Because how many times do you want to hear that Armageddon is just around the corner without at some point yelling which corner and how far away is the damn thing? And how many dull repetitious WatchTower magazines can you read without slipping into a coma at last?


After thinking about all this (again) and especially reading the Atlantic article, then I watched a documentary this morning on Jonestown. Disturbing, it goes without saying.

Kind of didn’t enjoy this last day of Christmas hols. I’d like to dial back the day, go back to bed and try it all over again. I’ve got a ton of brand new books to dig into. Time to open one of those {{slaps head again}}. I should have stuck with the mysteries. History hurts. Personal history anyway.

That's what I wanted to avoid with my longtime motto No Regrets. Kind of an impossible ask. Because as you live, you learn. And living involves inevitable regrets along the way.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2023 07:38PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: amiable ( )
Date: January 02, 2023 09:47PM

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> This (long) article below, from The Atlantic, lays
> out a lot of information, and proof:
>
> https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/03
> /the-secret-jehovahs-witness-database-of-child-mol
> esters/584311/

Yes, that is the article that got my attention. It is so disturbing.

Thank you so much for your observations and ruminations on the JWs and your history therewith.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2023 10:55PM by amiable.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: January 03, 2023 12:49PM

Thanks, amiable.

I've written here about being a JW likely more than about my time in the Mormon grip. I was a JW longer (I was a Mormon for only about a NY minute) and it was more a major part of my life, affecting my career decisions and my family connections. There were fellow JWs who I counted as very good friends. They were friends until the instant I left, after which they unquestioningly followed the leaders' injunction about shunning ex-members. I was instantly radioactive.

I didn't even tell my family about joining the Mormons because I was still (and eternally) embarrassed about the JW episode. The Mormon thing didn't really affect my life in any meaningful way. I did repeat, though, the "friend" withdrawals, like everybody was happy to turn away and dust their feet because I was no longer active. Oh well, the second time didn't hurt nearly as much.

I didn't regret leaving either group, at all. I did regret getting baptized with the Mormons because my JW baptism was still meaningful to me at that time and I felt like my debacle of a Mormon dunking (long story) washed away the previous JW one that had meant a lot to me at the time (I was a teen and I took the meaning and the solemn promise very seriously, separate and apart from being within the JW organization).

You can likely find some of my previous posts about being a JW if you do a search for them, if you're interested.

Both groups have a lot in common (even if their adherents or ex-members don't realize that, and why would they really).

I didn't realize, as I think I said above, the extent of the wrongdoing (understatement) and the cover-ups of egregious and criminal behaviour that causes ongoing harm to victims by members in both religious groups.

I have zero doubt as to the veracity of the claims.

The leaders in both groups bear responsibility for not keeping members safe, especially minors and, at least with the JWs, not bringing perpetrators to justice. In fact, many have been left in positions where they have free reign to continue their harmful behaviour.

I knew that JWs perpetrate harm by practicing shunning of members who don't measure up according to their exacting rules. I have often wondered how they can with straight faces prattle on about God being Love while themselves not dispensing any. I didn't know about anything worse than that from leadership.

I'm not sure how much ex-Mormons see that LDS Corp has many similarities to The WatchTower Society. In my experience at least, Mormonism causes at least as much harm to members, if not more, such as, for one, taking away two years of their young lives for missions which, to me, is mainly just marking time rather than achieving anything meaningful. Another check mark to put on the list of Mormon mandates. Wasting time in one's life like that is very much to be regretted.

The abuse going on behind the scenes is surely among the most malignant effects of fundamentalist religion.

I'm so happy for everyone who has managed to get out of either group and certainly wish that the deluge of leavetakers only increases from today on. The leaders deserve to be standing there alone with not a single body warming a pew in front of them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2023 12:50PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: amiable ( )
Date: January 03, 2023 08:55PM

Thanks, Nightingale, I will look up some of your earlier posts.

I did not realize that the JWs were anything but a delusional annoyance till I saw a 2018 A&E series on "Cults and Extreme Beliefs" that addressed the molestation issue with the JWs. That is what led me to the Atlantic article.

I was surprised that the FLDS were an episode of the A&E series, but not the "regular" LDS. I would say they deserve equal time, but that's just me.

The thing I hate most about LDS is how women are discounted and depersonalized from birth. Apparently, based on the series anyway, the JWs do the same.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: January 03, 2023 09:19PM

amiable Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The thing I hate most about LDS is how women are
> discounted and depersonalized from birth.
> Apparently, based on the series anyway, the JWs do
> the same.

Yes, no females in JW leadership, for sure. And, if women perform some function that is usually done by males they must don a headscarf to demonstrate their subservience. For example, if a woman were to lead a Bible study (in the absence of a baptized male) she would have to cover her head. Same goes if she were offering a prayer for a group, such as if no males were present when some women were going out "in service" (door-to-door evangelizing) and had to give a prayer first. The woman saying the prayer has to cover her head.

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Posted by: Hedning ( )
Date: January 02, 2023 08:29PM

When I was a missionary in the 70s, the first JW household I knowingly tracted up, the woman came out of the door and waved a blood donor card at us like it was a cross and garlic and vampire movie. My senior companion was clueless and had no idea why they did that. I got clued in from my District Leader, who also had a blood donor card from the American Red Cross and would take it out and wave it back at them.

I'm polite to them when they ring my door and tell them I was once a mormon missionary and had probably a hundred discussions with JWs when I was younger and I'm just not interested, but I would be interested if they could sell me a book called "The Holy Spirit" they usually leave quickly at that point.

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: January 02, 2023 08:40PM

They'd have to shovel my driveway to get to my door..hehe

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Posted by: IRanon ( )
Date: January 04, 2023 03:43PM

I have heard, that JW´s door-to-door proselyzing, was discontinued during the covid19. What I´ve heard from former JW´s, scuffing slowly the streets was their way to fulfill their cultjob duties anyway.

JW`s has sold 5-10 meetinghouses in finland past 15 years, builded and funded by its members. I wonder how they feel now, there the congregation ownership was distributed to the organization? Ironically one was sold to free masons that is totlly against the teachings of the Watch Tower society.

I guess the similar system was back 70-90´s in mormonchurch, where local wards buyed the land, builded the chapels with the building missionairies and maintainted the costs of the building themself, at least partially. And was tithing and funded partially, the building costs of the temple in Sweden, etc.

How are the mormon members take it, when meeting houses are sold to be mosques, bars, breweries, casinos or something else?

The memebership count has stagnated in Finland for both religions:
mormonism; ca 3000
jw´s , ca 17000

Quarter of Finnish population are now unaffiliated, where as in mid 70´s the numer was less than 5%.

Thank you for your work you have done for us here.

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Posted by: IRanon ( )
Date: January 04, 2023 03:56PM

I need to clarify my self, The JW had/has a quota of hour´s of proselyzing, in order to fulfill the duties. When door-to-door was stoped, they was instructions of doing prozelyting by telephone or charts at shoping malls. I guess after couple of years of pause, social encounter does not come easy.

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Posted by: 1206 ( )
Date: January 04, 2023 04:52PM

Haven't had JWs at the door since the start of Covid. However, we do a receive in the mail a Watchtower pamphlet complete with handwritten invitation from a local family every 3-4- months.

I like this approach ~ It allows me to ignore them on MY schedule!

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Posted by: laperla not logged in ( )
Date: January 05, 2023 04:03PM

No one goes door-to-door in this neighborhood. Pistols and pitbulls abound.

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