It looks like they have the timeline nailed down. It's a shame that a few minutes destroyed the lives of four people. I find it very creepy that e went back at 9am. He must have wondered if they had been found.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/us/1717901/idaho-murders-timeline-Bryan-Kohberger-affidavit-unsealed-evidence-latest-dxus

I had also read that he returned the next morning. He was probably hoping to see a lot of police activity. Apparently it’s not uncommon for people like this to return to the scene of the crime. It gives them a thrill of some sort. Also, I understand that some will even try to insert themselves into the investigation somehow.

I wondered about the showing back up thing too. Given what he wanted to do as a job, helping to collect and process evidence from crime scenes... I bet he was disappointed there was no activity yet. I have heard that he is acting out in jail now but I am not sure how reliable the accounts are.

I think seeing a lot of activity at the scene would have fed his ego, perhaps a form of narcissistic supply. Documentaries on people like Bundy, Rader, Gacy, etc, indicate that they tend to be narcissistic (in conjunction with whatever other personality disorders affect them).

Speaking of Bundy, I read that Kohber thoroughly “deep cleaned” his car. He must have feared that forensic evidence could have been tracked into his car, tying him to the crime (or perhaps other victims...).

Anyway, from a lot of news reports, I think it's reasonable to conclude that he's pretty narcissistic. For example, one of his prof's in grad school had expertise on serial killers, and a personal association with Dennis Rader (BTK) from conducting her research; one fellow student said that Kohberger would disagree or “correct” the professor at times.

Also, re. the phone, it's odd that he turned it off during the window of time the crime was committed, but wasn’t smart enough to do it on his visits before and after.

Now that I think about it, maybe he went back at 9am because he wondered why he had NOT seen anything on the news about it, and once the news broke he quit going back, because he could see all the activity online. (although I'm not sure when the news broke).

> Now that I think about it, maybe he went back at
> 9am because he wondered why he had NOT seen
> anything on the news about it,

I think that is right. What would be more terrifying than having committed such a crime and then hearing nothing at all about it?

Kohberger is not a particularly intelligent man. He thinks he is and he tried to do things strategically, but he made a number of remarkably stupid mistakes.

I'm surprised he drove his own car to commit the crime. With so many cameras around, especially doorbell cameras so many people have, didn't he think it was likely that his car could be sighted, which I think is how he was finally caught? If he had stolen a car to commit the crime he could have gotten away with it or at least it would have stalled the investigation. I've heard of many crimes committed with stolen cars.

It's probably an antisocial/cluster B personality thing, but I suspect he felt like he could commit the "perfect" crime and not be caught, that his criminology expertise and the benefit of doubt granted to him as a highly educated doctoral student, would keep him from getting caught despite the way he flaunted identifiable things.

If not for the white Hyundai, he might never have gotten caught.

They would still have the DNA on the knife sheath, which would have enabled them to identify the family in PA. From there they might have realized there was a first-degree relative living 10 miles from the crime scene.

It surely helps to have both, though.

How would they have matched the DNA to his family in Pennsylvania, though? -- unless the family had previously submitted DNA for testing.

That's how they did it. There were enough relatives with registered DNA to identify Kohberger.

ETA:

"They got a warrant to go through trash from Kohberger's family home in Pennsylvania, and obtained DNA from the trash, which they were able to identify with a high level of probability as belonging to the biological father of the person whose DNA was on the knife sheath."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/01/05/dna-profiling-why-investigators-suspect-kohberger-idaho-murders/10997106002/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2023 01:24AM by Lot's Wife.

He was allegedly active in a cyber sleuth style facebook group formed to discuss the murders. He theorized that the police's info about the wounds and type of knife used meant that they found the sheath (or something to that effect). The police didn't mention anything about finding the sheath till after he was arrested. I wonder if he was feeding details? Or annoyed that they hadn't reported that detail? He knew he left the sheath there and where he left it. https://nypost.com/2023/01/07/idaho-murder-suspect-bryan-kohberger-talked-crime-on-facebook/

It struck me the other day that with a bachelors and masters degree, Kohberger ought to be about 24, give or take. Obviously, every student doesn't necessarily go through on the fast track, but it made me wonder what he'd been up to for those roughly 4 "missing" years.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/idaho-student-murders-bryan-kohberger-photos-details-48-hours/

But I saw the news piece above that says he apparently had a drug problem for a while, was self-destructive and secluded, but got clean/sober about the time he started to get some traction at the junior college.

It also said that he was overweight in high school, and bullied, but that he was also a bully at times himself. And that he lost something like 100 lbs in his senior year, but that his personality changed after losing weight.

I've read that he was regularly spurned by women, but in this piece a classmate says that Kohberger claimed he could go to a bar and have any women he wanted (surely ridiculous braggadocio).

Anyway, I wonder if he turned to drugs to lose weight and/or to self medicate. Perhaps he coped by overeating before.

I suspect he wrestles with a variety of demons.

The timeline makes sense. Graduated from HS at 18, spent two years at a community college, then two years finishing up at a four-year university, then did a one- or two-year masters degree at that university and ended up at grad school at the age of 23 or 24.

Your judgment on the personality stuff sounds right to me. An overweight kid who was bullied and then in his senior year lost 100 pounds, studied boxing, and grew addicted to heroin. Then he straightened up and continued with his education while also showing a more aggressive, bellicose side of his character as well as significant misogyny.

That transformation in his last year of high school attracts attention, doesn't it? It sounds like such a sudden and decisive change that it must have been profoundly emotional. Perhaps a bit like DeNiro in Taxi Driver. And what emerged was a man dominated by rage and fascinated by crime and criminal justice, very possibly looking for revenge against the world.

As you say, he must have wrestled demons throughout his life. They just appear to have turned from inwardly destructive forces to outwardly destructive ones.

It would be interesting to know which room held the sheath. My uninformed guess is that the girl in that room, whoever she was, was the primary target. Perhaps she laughed at him in a bar several months ago or turned down a proposition--or maybe he just interpreted the look on her face across as critical.

She may well not even have remembered him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY6-xjRmWok

According to the above CNN report (on YouTube), the knife sheath was found in the room with Goncalves and Mogen.

You’re probably right about the sheath being left near intended victim (that’s likely when the knife came out). The others may have been killed just for being there. Potential witnesses.

I saw some older reports that said Goncalves may have had a problem with a stalker, but apparently not the same guy.

>I saw some older reports that said Goncalves may have had a problem with a stalker, but apparently not the same guy

Then again, maybe it was

https://news.yahoo.com/idaho-murder-suspect-bryan-kohberger-213700911.html

"In the weeks before four students were found dead inside a residence near the University of Idaho, suspect Bryan Kohberger messaged one of the victims on Instagram — and then kept reaching out after she did not respond, according to a new report"

"Weeks earlier, an account authorities suspect belonged to Kohberger attempted to connect with one of the women he would allegedly go on to kill, a source familiar with the investigation told People. The first message landed in her inbox in late October. It was a seemingly friendly greeting — but they kept coming.

“He slid into one of the girls’ DMs several times, but she didn’t respond,” the unidentified investigator said. “Basically, it was just him saying, ‘Hey, how are you?’ But he did it again and again.”

It’s not clear which student he specifically reached out to, but the account did follow all three female victims on Instagram"

I saw that. So he was stalking all three female victims, with one in particular as his focus. The poor young man just happened to be in the way. I wonder how he became aware of that household. The fact that it had a keypad must have been attractive to him. Gain the number, and you have easy entry.

I saw that in the headlines too, but wasn't aware that he was following all three. I'd be curious whether or not he was following anyone else who lived in the house (assuming they're on the same platform). It would be a pretty strong coincidence to kill exactly the three he was following.


It also brings up another issue. Some social media users are becoming celebrities of sorts, drawing lots of attention to themselves. I wonder how many are too naive to realize that they may need to be aware of threats like this.

A news story today says that Kohberger visited a restaurant on at least two occasions where two of the victims worked.

https://people.com/crime/bryan-kohberger-idaho-murders-suspect-visited-restaurant-victims-worked/

It sounds as if things are clarifying.

Kohberger was stalking all three girls on social media and saw at least the two of them multiple times at the restaurant at which they worked. And all three, plus a bedmate who may or may not have bill targeted, were murdered while the other residents were left alone.

To all appearances this was an instance in which a psychopathic incel found some pretty and bubbly girls to stand in for all the women who had rejected him over the course of his pathetic life.

He could also have stalked them through their sorority memberships. Kaylee Goncalves photo and name are up on the U of I's Alpha Phi chapter website. There are photos of Madison and Xana on the school's Pi Beta Phi chapter website. Plus the chapters have lots of posts open for view on their social media pages.

Ah, I was correct. Hubs and I watched something the other day where they said Moscow was where you would go to eat out and that the girls worked there. I told him that I bet that is where he first spotted them. I bet when they check his GPS he was there often.

If what gossip I saw was true, the restaurant was Mad Greek. Apparently he ordered vegan pizza. See? Maybe he's a caring guy who loves animals!

I think it is the old story, he was rejected and wanted revenge. How DARE they say no when he was such a superior being. So he took the ultimate control. If he couldn't have them one way, he would have them another.

Yep. Apparently he was sort of a pain with his demands at the restaurant.

Gordon B. Stinky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A news story today says that Kohberger visited a
> restaurant on at least two occasions where two of
> the victims worked.


Well, now the restaurant is saying that the story in People is untrue!

https://www.facebook.com/madgreekmoscow/posts/pfbid0UXdUfVhMS9QCy4rxUahqNXMdNySWL72eqsW7m7hhJXDiyvVxbuW7iLVBb6urSs9cl

It did seem odd that it came from a "former employee," but who knows.

Perhaps it is untrue. But frankly, it's entirely possible that the owner never saw Kohberger in the restaurant while an employee did.

Posts in 2011 that appear to be Kohlberg to a website discussing symptoms of a migraine associated condition called "visual snow" describe a plethora of symptoms that he blames on the condition but actually speak to his emerging mental health issues.

This individual, (if in fact it was Kohlberg at age 17) mentions taking a drug called topiramate which is given for epilepsy, migraine, bi-polar disorder, borderline personality disorder.

https://meaww.com/what-is-visual-snow-syndrome-bryan-kohberger-complained-about-his-vision-getting-worse

https://medium.com/@brookemarin/bryan-kohberger-in-2011-the-ringing-in-my-ears-and-the-fuzz-in-my-vision-is-simply-all-of-the-4e0b692dc35c



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2023 08:46AM by Twinker.

Probably most people who get migraine headaches know that visuals can go along with it. I used to get migraines in my younger days, and my visuals were of the zig-zagging aura kind. The first time I got an aura, I was alarmed until I knew what it was. I never got the visual snow.

The visuals tend to go away in maybe 20-30 minutes. They often serve as a precursor to the headache.

https://www.optometrists.org/general-practice-optometry/guide-to-eye-conditions/guide-to-blurry-vision-and-headaches/visual-migraines/

... except I still get them at 62! Luckily, they're not as painful as in my youth.

I have a close friend who works in London. She and her husband have a second home in Paris used mainly as a base for enjoying music and artistic events. I remember several years ago (could it be ten now?) they went every weekend to hear the complete set of Beethoven concertos. That must have taken them months. . .

Anyway, Mr. and Mrs. Tommy (coincidence?) are considering leaving their insular home for the warmth and energy of Paris permanently, by selling their house in the Cotswalds and relocating to your neighborhood.

Imagine that: finding a place better than the Cotswalds!

There are lots of very nice places in the country around Paris. Brits always forget that France is twice the size of the UK.

On another note, your friends are clearly richer than me: I couldn't afford to live in either the Cotswolds or Paris intra muros. The last time I lived inside Paris was in 1990. Prices have gone through the roof since then.

And on yet another note, LW, if you ever come to France to see them, I DEMAND that we meet ;-)

Yes, for a very long time my friend and her husband lived in a small place in London: strictly a one-cat residence. When she'd amassed sufficient resources, they built a two-poodle-plus-one-cat home--she calls it their schloss--in the countryside. I will confess to some jealousy on visits but the Christmas cards are great.

As for meeting you in Paris--scratch that

As for meeting you anywhere, I would enjoy that very much.

Wow.

I had never heard of Topiramate being used for borderlines before, so I looked it up. It turns out that this is a new and/or unusual usage for BPD and that it has a particular purpose for both male and female sufferers: in short, it is used to help control patient aggression. And a side effect is "significant weight loss."*

It sounds to me as if Kohberger may have been a diagnosed borderline with rage problems. It may not be too much of a stretch to infer he started the Topiramate treatment as a senior in high school and it helps explain his sudden dramatic weight loss. Experts tell us that 1) BPD is the second most frequent diagnosis (behind anti-social personality disorder) among violent criminals in maximum security prisons, 2) there is an overlap between diagnoses of BPD and sociopathy, and 3) people with BPD can under stress exhibit sociopathic tendencies.

It would be nice if DNA or others with psychological expertise opined on the topic, but I think you may have shed considerable light on Kohberger and his behavior.










*https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18024088/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15737664/

I was reading where professionals are reluctant to diagnose BPD before age 18 -- so being a H.S. senior fits. I wonder what part the heroin use played? -- maybe he was trying to self-medicate.

I had one elementary-aged child where I know that BPD was what the counselors, etc. were suspecting -- but probably no formal diagnosis would have been made until years later. The child would turn on a dime from being completely fine to being violent if frustrated or thwarted.

Experts are reluctant to diagnose any of the personality disorders before age 18 for the simple reason that everyone's personality is disordered in their teenage years.

Putting different pieces together, I'm guessing Kohberger felt "different" from a young age and tried to figure himself out.

Forensic psychologist Dr. John Matthais (Hidden - a True Crime Podcast) theorizes some kind of trauma caused him to disassociate. I assume the trauma he is referring to was the bullying he experienced all of his teenage years. Kohberger's extensive participation on that visual snow site and his descriptions of all his symptoms and feelings reveal that he was troubled for a long time.

My sense is that he took psychology classes, and criminology classes to try to understand himself and the mental chaos that involved hostility, disturbing fantasies of revenge, dark urges, and a lack of empathy.

I've seen that twice, once variously and once directly.

The vicarious one was Ted Bundy, who apparently learned who he was while studying psychology and then, like many psychopaths, used the study to figure out how better to manipulate others.

The direct one was a boss whom I worked for. Everyone in our small but powerful company knew he was psychopathic; everyone knew he put mistresses on the payrolls of various offices and routinely used prostitutes as well. There was one day, for instance, on which two prostitutes showed up at the office giggling and asking for him by name. Challenged, they produced his business card.

Anyway, his wife eventually figured out what was happening and the marriage approached the brink. My boss opted for a month of sex addiction recovery at a luxurious rehab facility in Arizona. When he came back to the office, he told us, "I have discovered that I have no empathy," followed by "oh well." Then he divorced his wife and continued with his libertine lifestyle.

Psychopathy means never having to say you're sorry.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've seen that twice, once variously and once
> directly.

I've seen it some too. Vicariously, as you say -- the perfect storm of being stuck at home due to Covid, and discovering the Netflix streaming series phenomenon, has me me swept up in much of the new "crime" genre, like apparently a lot of people.

And professionally. When I was an undergrad I got a research fellowship to work at an Army Research Institute field office for two years. They were researching the efficacy of training software, and I and other programmers would tweak the code.

Most of the principle researchers, and many of the subordinates, had PhDs in Psychology. One that I worked closely with would "joke" that nine out ten Psychologists get into the field for self-help reasons. It's a joke, but obviously there's some truth to it.

It was a zany place. The office politics and rivalries were unbelievable.

90% is jocularly high, surely, but the true figure is undoubtedly disproportionate. Being the child of terrible parents, for example, increases the appeal of a career in psychology greatly.

Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily. Hypersensitivity and hyper-vigilance are characteristics of people who've been traumatized, and those traits are probably helpful for therapists if not for spouses and friends.

I would agree that 90% is too high. And that it's not necessarily a bad thing. FWIW, the vast majority also don't go on to become murderers.

Yes.

There's a difference between a damaged person who is fascinated by the subject and goes on to use her hyper-vigilance to help others on the one hand and, on the other, the psychopath who takes some courses in psychology or criminology out of curiosity and/or a desire to become a more efficient criminal. Also, completing a Ph.D. is probably exceptionally rare for a psychopath lacking discipline and impulse control.

I doubt there are many Hannibal Lecters in the real world.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Also, completing a Ph.D. is
> probably exceptionally rare for a psychopath
> lacking discipline and impulse control.


I was thinking the same, especially after reading the comments purportedly made by Kohberger a decade or so ago. I'm not sure if they've been proven to have come from him, but if so that person underwent a herculean transformation. Perhaps due to medication, which potentially could have helped him.

I think that pursuing a PhD feeds his ego in multiple ways. It would "prove" how smart he is. And it also may be a competitive thing: both of his sisters have masters degrees, so perhaps he felt compelled to "out do" them.

If Topiramate will let you shed 100 lbs in a year, then I’d like a 90 day prescription! ;)

On a more serious note…

If stress could trigger sociopathic tendencies, then I’ll point put again that a first semester in a PhD program is pretty stressful. Not to mention a new town, new job, new everything. Those are stressors even for healthy people.

His masters program was at the same school where he got his undergraduate degree. He probably felt comfortable there, knew the faculty, etc. So a less stressful transition.

He was also closer to home, and perhaps more accountability too.

it's brand name is Topimax, and the colloquial term is Dopymax. Those shed lbs will cost you. I was on Topimax for migraines and I was hardly functional in terms of brain dullness. I forgot everything, repeated things multiple times an hour, got lost when driving. It wasn't great.

I was just kidding. Sort of. I'd love to drop 20 "stubborn" pounds, but rather not dope up to do it. :(

Predictions anyone?

When will the trial be over and what will be the verdict?

I predict it will end in 2028, with not guilty by reason of insanity. He will continue to thrive in some kind of mental health prison institution where he will pride himself on outsmarting everyone.

The winners get to take themselves out to dinner.

I predict it will be a fairly easy guilty verdict. The jury will review all the evidence, and come back within three days.

I've heard that Idaho law does not allow for an insanity defense, although it can be taken into account at sentencing.

Ahhhh. If he is guilty, I hope you are right.

I didn't know of Idaho laws regarding insanity defense. Come to think about it, too many people here would qualify. ;-/

They are doing a scammy job with Daybells, IMO. I just had a cynical thought. When a case might expose or damage LDS interests, the trials might be handled differently. The Moscow case doesn't involve Mormons, so there would be no need for Mormon interests to muddy up the trial. It will be interesting to see if Mormon factors come up in the Utah Enoch trial.

If the mormon factors are not recognized, somebody is deaf, dumb, and blind.

However, would there be a trial? The shooter is dead.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2023 04:11PM by Twinker.

It appears Kohberger has long had a way with women. Here's an account from a woman who went on a tinder date with him years ago.

https://news.yahoo.com/woman-describes-eerie-tinder-date-003253769.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

What a charmer. /s

Apparently the accused has waived his right to a speedy trial, and dates set for the preliminary hearing in June.

I guess now it's a waiting game...


But there's been some talk of a footprint left behind. If Kohberger was dumb enough to keep his shoes, then perhaps the forensic evidence will be all the more damning.

The DNA evidence, ie. blood on the sheath, door knob, etc, will be important - as long as they don't pull an OJ-type jury.

I don't recall all the details--it's been a long time--but I can remember thinking at the end of the OJ debacle that if I were on the jury I would have concluded that there was reasonable doubt.

They don't need a non-OJ jury. They need non-what's-his-name detectives.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2023 12:58PM by Gordon B. Stinky.

Twinker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The DNA evidence, ie. blood on the sheath, door
> knob, etc, will be important - as long as they
> don't pull an OJ-type jury.


I don't know how it all managed to come down to the glove fitting. OJ was arthritic.They took him off his meds. When you take someone with arthritis in their hands off anti inflammatories, their hands are going to swell up.Of course the glove didn't fit.

I watched the entire trial, and there was no question whatsoever in my mind that OJ did it. There was no reasonable doubt. OJ had the best legal defense team that money could buy, and they did a splendid job defending him. :/

Apparently the judge has expanded the gag order to include family members of the victims.

Every time my eye catches this sub line I think the thread is going to relate to that European capital and too my brain translates "ID" literally, as in the topic is going to be about something related to Russian IDentification.

Every time. The little grey cells aren't learning to adapt to the actual topic.

On another note, it's a horrific incident and so sad to read about.

Major crime is even scarier when it's a so-called smart person who commits the offence/s.

I see the guy in the orange jumpsuit nearly every night on the news but don't listen as I don't want to absorb all the details.

What the absolute hell is the matter with the guy is all I can think.