Why would a deity be concerned with eliminating enemies of the state?


"OMM" from "THX-1138" (1971)
https://youtu.be/U0YkPnwoYyE

My time is yours, go ahead, proceed.

Blessings of the state, blesssings of the masses.
Thou art a subject of the divine, by the masses, for the masses.
Let us be thankful that we have an occupation to fill.

Buy more.
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Go now, and be happy.

Are there any religions which have not, at one time or another, been used as instruments of (state or other) repression? I can't think of any (and before you say Buddhism, look closely at Tibet in the early 20th century...).

written by famous American journalist Lowell Thomas and his son about a trip they took to Tibet just before the Chinese invasion. There were no paved roads or even airstrips. They had to go in caravan style like Marco Polo and it took months. Tibet was a feudal society with about a quarter of the male population in monastic orders and -- would you believe it -- polyandry.

Another related book is about the Younghusband military expedition at the turn of the century.

The lamas forbade people from mining or paving roads. One wonders if this was for religious purposes or to dissuade possible enemies.

I would recommend the books of Charles (later Sir Charles) Bell who befriended the 13th Dalai Lama in 1912 when he fled temporarily to India and was invited to visit Lhasa by the Dalai Lama in 1920. He eventually stayed for nearly a year. He was a great lover of the Tibetan language (which he spoke fluently in the Lhasa dialect) and the Tibetan people, whose cheerful reaction to their extremely hard lives constantly inspired him.

As I've had Tibetan neighbours for the last four or five years, I can confirm that they are some of the most cheerful, even joyful people I have ever met. But pre-Chinese Tibet was a very harsh feudal society with feudal punishments which the Dalai Lama did not hesitate to apply (such as the removal of lips and eyelids...).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2023 07:00AM by Soft Machine.

Buddhism is a religion that at times has been apolitical. But that is not the rule. There were times in India and China when Buddhist sects had armies--hell, that was true in Vietnam in the 1950s and 1960s--and fought street wars with their religious and political rivals. Sometimes they assassinated their foes.

I'd go a step farther, though, and suggest that if a religion has achieved large scale and significant temporal duration, it has inevitably gone through a stage of political activism and very possibly violence--and that "stage" may be permanent. Because without attaining secular power, religions would never have progressed beyond the personal, familial, or perhaps neighborhood level.

Where does that leave us? It means that the person who in the 21st century tries to emulate the Buddhist sages or Jesus, his choice rests upon that earlier violence. Because without it, we would have neither the Buddhist scriptures nor the Christian ones--nor even the Taoist classics. The solitary pursuit of spiritual progress is therefore a privilege that stems ultimately from the sins of others.

>
> I'd go a step farther ...
>

You're a girl, so you can't go a step-father!


The very idea...!!!

You're just grumpy because despite your 33rd Degree Annoying, you don't get to be a moderator.

John 11:35

Yes, Jesus wept...

And then he cured the weeps by bringing Lazarus back from the dead; He wasn't weeping because he knew the 49'ers were going to beat the spread!  Stop trying to read between the lines!

I thought Jesus got over it by gorging himself on tamales as he watched the 49ers play a very strange soccer game.

Different Jesus, perhaps?

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd go a step farther, though, and suggest that if
> a religion has achieved large scale and
> significant temporal duration, it has inevitably
> gone through a stage of political activism and
> very possibly violence--and that "stage" may be
> permanent. Because without attaining secular
> power, religions would never have progressed
> beyond the personal, familial, or perhaps
> neighborhood level.

So this is why almost every time I read a news story these days it's about some crazy fundie that's in ecstasy about the next repressive anti-LGBTQIA+ law they passed or racist idea they just promoted...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2023 09:55PM by anybody.

Christianity today is with us because of several political achievements, including: 1) The displacement of rival mystery cults in the first century, 2) The endorsement of the Church Fathers, themselves powerful politicians, in the second and third centuries, 3) The conversion of Constantine who saw the (political) light, and 4) The conversion of the Franks in the late 8th century,

Eventually the movement split and all three branches (Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Protestantism) achieved their separate accommodations with secular powers. Other branches of Christianity were meanwhile denounced as heresies and--again through political power--suppressed.

In the last 50 years a subset of Protestantism in the United States came to feel aggrieved and embarked on a new political campaign that embraced the opposite of Christian ideals and Christian leaders in order to gain power. The result is White Christian Nationalism, a movement that bears scant resemblance to any form of past Christianity and yet has gained prominence and influence.

To do that, however, they had to displace traditional forms of Christianity--Catholicism, moderate Protestantism--that were less politically motivated and hence less successful.

I'm sure some see the hand of God in all of this. All I can see, though, is Gustavus Adolphus rampaging through Germany in the 30 Years War. . .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2023 10:12PM by Lot's Wife.

In all the books and movies (like "Ben Hur" and "Quo Vadis") they make First Century proto-Christanity seem so good, noble, accepting, and pure... ha



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2023 10:49PM by anybody.

Or, are secular tools of repression actually religions?

I think the case can be made that religion is an extension of the concept of local tribe. Tribe 2.3, more or less.

Religion has always been about controlling the masses.

Kings are crowned by religious leaders. Failure to follow the king was failure to follow god. The divine right of kings.

Name a law that isn't somehow tied to religion. Yes there are some but how many exist because the bible, Koran or other book details how we should live.

The demi gods of Egypt and Rome are good examples too.

The Emperor of Japan was divine for centuries.

God had killed and discriminated against people and nations and governments since the beginning. Why wouldn't "HIS" churches?

Remember the teaching that at one time only ONE guy in all the world owned a big Boat - No one else, anywhere - made it.

Isn't there some sense of amusement regarding the likelihood that the people founding and administrating a religion often lack any sense of prohibition regarding their wants and desires?

When you're the founder or an administrator, gaming the system is child's play.

...not to mention the genius of the 2nd Annoying!