Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 03, 2023 11:58PM

or in this case, a Chinese airborne surveillance platform.

Balloons have been used for high altitude research -- and other purposes -- for decades.

A high altitude polythene balloon carrying a high altitude microphone array experiment was the source of the infamous Roswell, NM "UFO" crash.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/03/spy-balloons-what-are-they-and-why-are-they-still-being-used

What are spy balloons?

A contemporary spy balloon is a piece of spying equipment, for example a camera, suspended beneath a balloon that floats above a given area, carried by wind currents. The equipment attached to the balloons may include radar and be solar powered.

Balloons typically operate at 24,000 metres – 37,000 metres (80,000-120,000 feet), well above where commercial air traffic flies – airliners almost never fly higher than 12,000 metres.

Why use spy balloons rather than satellites?

“For the last few decades, satellites were de rigueur. Satellites were the answer,” says John Blaxland, professor of international security and intelligence studies at the Australian National University and the author of the book, Revealing Secrets. But now that lasers or kinetic weapons are being invented to target satellites, there is a resurgence of interest in balloons. They don’t offer the same level of persistent surveillance as satellites, but are easier to retrieve, and much cheaper to launch. To send a satellite into space, you need a space launcher – a piece of equipment that typically costs hundreds of millions of dollars.

Balloons can also scan more territory from a lower altitude and spend more time over a given area because they move more slowly than satellites, according to a 2009 report to the US air force’s Air Command and Staff College.


When were they first used?

The French are the first recorded users of reconnaissance balloons, initiated at the Battle of Fleurus against Austrian and Dutch troops in 1794, during the French revolutionary wars. They were also used in the 1860s, during the American civil war when Union men in hot air balloons, binoculars at the ready, would try to gather information about Confederate activity further away. They sent signals back via morse code or a “piece of paper tied to a stone”, says Blaxland.

The US has revived the idea in recent years, but has tended to use balloons only on US territory.

“Over somebody else’s atmosphere, you are required to seek permission,” Blaxland says. “Or if you’re going to do it [without permission] then expect that it won’t be well received.”

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 07:44AM

but the title is from David Niven's autobiography.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moon%27s_a_Balloon

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-moons-a-balloon-by-david-niven-t97fbgrd9



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2023 07:45AM by anybody.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 08:12AM

... a very fine poem by e.e. cummings, one of the American greats :-)

(incidentally, the spacing and alignments of the text are in the original, from the collection "&")

who knows if the moon’s a balloon

e.e. cummings

who knows if the moon’s
a balloon,coming out of a keen city
in the sky–filled with pretty people?
( and if you and I should
get into it,if they
should take me and take you into their balloon,
why then
we’d go up higher with all the pretty people

than houses and steeples and clouds:
go sailing
away and away sailing into a keen
city which nobody’s ever visited,where

always
it’s
Spring)and everyone’s
in love and flowers pick themselves.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 08:39AM

Thanks, SM, I didn't know that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 05:12PM

I love it!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: February 05, 2023 06:03AM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 08:27PM

Are Eff Em is amazing
Far beyond church
We’re star-gazing

Our palette the universe
Away from SM
Life is diverse

Our friend Tom in gay Paree
Sent us a poem
cummings e.e.

All about moons and balloons
Pretty people
Self-picking blooms

Wispy clouds, new cities, love
Sailing, Springtime
And that’s not tough



And e.e. cummings I'm not - obviously - but that was fun. Trust a gentleman in Paris to go all poetical on us. :)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 08:55PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: February 05, 2023 05:57AM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: 1964 1968 ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 05:35AM

Why would a space faring state need to use balloons for surveillance? The obvious answer is that whoever put that thing up there meant it to be see.

People should be more concerned about CCP influence on universities, Hollywood and on tech companies such as Zoom.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-zoom-video-commn-privacy-idUSKBN23I3GP

The Roswell incident was likely not a weather balloon. The balloon was a cover story for monitoring of Soviet nuclear tests and other related exercises

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 07:35AM

Of course they wanted the USA to see it:

https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/3842982-bidens-sputnik-moment-is-chinas-spy-balloon-political-warfare/


And the Roswell case was a high altitude microphone array experiment designed to detect a nuclear explosion from the Soviet Union:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Mogul

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 01:07PM

1964 1968 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why would a space faring state need to use
> balloons for surveillance? The obvious answer is
> that whoever put that thing up there meant it to
> be see.

Fash! That's a brilliant observation! Now the tough question: what color is the sky in the afternoon?

----------------------
> The Roswell incident was likely not a weather
> balloon. The balloon was a cover story for
> monitoring of Soviet nuclear tests and other
> related exercises

Can you offer proof for that assertion? Of course not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2023 01:08PM by Lot's Wife.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: 1964 1968 ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 05:46AM

Report: CCP Operating More Than 100 Illegal "Police Stations" Globally including in USA and Canada - The New American

According to Madrid-based non-governmental organization (NGO) Safeguard Defenders, China has set up 48 more police stations overseas since the NGO first uncovered 54 such stations in September 2022. This brings the total number of Chinese-run police stations to 102 across 53 countries.
From news thread/link above:
https://thenewamerican.com/report-ccp-operating-more-than-100-illegal-police-stations-globally/

“…Italy, which inked a series of bilateral security deals with China over successive governments since 2015, allegedly has the largest number of these illegal police stations…

In 2016, an Italian police official revealed to NPR that joint policing would “lead to a wider international cooperation, exchange of information and sharing resources to combat the criminal and terrorist groups that afflict our countries.”

…“To date, despite having the largest number of liaison outposts on its soil, the Italian government is among the very few European countries that has not yet publicly announced an investigation into the Chinese Overseas Police Stations or declared their illegality,” the report continued, insinuating a lack of transparency from Italy...”

I wonder what other countries have China police stations…

“ Europe is home to most CCP police stations, with locations spread across the continent in places such as London, Amsterdam, Prague, Budapest, Athens, Paris, Madrid, and Frankfurt. North America is also home to four stations, with three in Toronto and one in New York. The Telegraph reports that these police stations are often run at innocuous locations such as Chinese restaurants, convenience stores, real estate agents, and even private homes...

Between April 2021 and July 2022, CCP police “persuaded” 230,000 alleged fugitives to return to Communist China “involuntarily” by threatening to cut off electricity supplies to relatives in the country or restricting their access to public schools (while admitting not all the targets have committed any crimes)…

https://www.himalayaustralia.com.au/2022/10/04/ccp-opens-54-overseas-police-stations-in-30-countries/

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 10:14AM

Just like TSCC, CCP holds relatives hostage.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 08:33AM

The US is nothing if not an ott reactionary society. If they wanted it to be seen perhaps that is their objective. If so, mission achieved. I am quite sure satellites overpass China daily.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 11:35AM

i'd think more like hourly.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 09:31AM

For possible future use.
They're also testing our resolve to see what we, or at least this administration, will do. Which so far, is nothing. Consider the possibility of this becoming commonplace. At some future point in time, the surveillance instruments could be replaced with a high-altitude nuclear weapon to create an atomic (or nuclear) electromagnetic pulse attack against our electric and signals infrastructure, civilian and military.

From Wiki:
"In military terminology, a nuclear warhead detonated tens to hundreds of miles above the Earth's surface is known as a high-altitude electromagnetic pulse (HEMP) device. Effects of a HEMP device depend on factors including the altitude of the detonation, energy yield, gamma ray output, interactions with the Earth's magnetic field and electromagnetic shielding of targets."

That would be the ultimate "gain of function."

I appreciate that at least a few posters on this board understand the CCP for the grave threat it is. This is no laughing matter.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 10:27AM

This is an argument for driving a really old car.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 11:05AM

But if this were to happen, Dave, I think your vehicle's operation would be a very minor issue. Think fuel availability.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 12:24PM

I highly doubt the administration is "doing nothing". Fortunately, there are cool heads within. Patience - virtue.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 09:43AM

I was willing to give the PRC some benefit for the excuse of "It's a weather balloon gone off course," until I heard on NPR last night that a second such balloon had been spotted over South America. I'm also siding, at least for the time being, with the U.S. Department of Defense: since we don't actually know what that balloon is carrying, it's probably better not to shoot it down--at least while it's over U.S. territory.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 11:19AM

And not entitled to the benefit of any possible doubt. Their declared goal is to be the world's sole superpower, and their actions (e.g. "Belt & Road," militarizing man-made islands in the South China Sea, their sponsoring hostile regimes in the Western Hemisphere, extensive spy networks throughout the US) all demonstrate that.

The balloon should have been shot down the moment it entered our airspace. Your "weather balloon" hypothesis provides the CCP a thin fig leaf explanation but is still consistent with my military-civilian dual-use technology theory (above).

Note that the Administration said nothing about it until it was spotted over Montana. Besides the Central American balloon, there are civilian reports of yet another over Canada.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 11:56AM

You must have really missed the Cold War when it ended. :)

What's the effective blast radius for an EMP at 80,000 feet? The horizon can't be all that far away from a balloon at that altitude.

How big of a bomb would be required for to achieve such a radius. Remember, the EMP force decreases with the square of the distance between source and target.

How much would such a bomb weigh?
What is the payload capacity of a weather balloon?
How many weather balloons would it take to blanket, say, 15% of the lower 48?
How exactly does one steer a weather balloon to a target? Or get it to arrive at a predetermined time?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 12:13PM

They may be testing wind currents, balloon technology (e.g. payloads), and the Administration's response to violations of our airspace. After all, if we won't protect our borders, why should we defend our airspace?

From Bryan Clark's op-ed in the Post:

"China says the balloon went off course and wandered into US airspace. This is unlikely, as stratospheric balloons have been in operation for decades and have well-understood and robust control mechanisms.

While not precise, stratospheric balloons like those made by US company Raven Aerostar for the Pentagon and Google can steer by adjusting their altitude, accessing winds of different speeds and directions that exist at various heights. This technique enables the balloons to maintain station within a few hundred miles of a ground location."

Consider the possibility of an EMP device transported via a stratospoheric balloon, then dropped to explode at a set altitude. Or perhaps a bioweapon, or chemical agent?

An old bumpersticker comes to mind: "If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention."

(Brian Clark is a former Navy officer and graduate of the Navy War College, and now a fellow at the Hudson Institute. I appreciate that he served in both the enlisted and commissioned ranks. His bio:

https://www.hudson.org/experts/1303-bryan-clark#:~:text=Bryan%20Clark%20is%20a%20senior%20fellow%20and%20director%20of%20the,%2C%20military%20competitions%2C%20and%20wargaming.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Concrete Zipper ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 12:57PM

Are we back to World War I, with Zeppelins sneaking over our cities to drop general nastiness? Balloons are slow, difficult to steer and so obvious that ordinary people are taking video footage of this thing with consumer equipment.

If you're worried about EMP, a satellite in low Earth orbit would be a far quicker and stealthier delivery vehicle -- and would produce a more powerful EMP for various physics reasons.

And if chemical and biological weapons are your concern, then you might want to consider that China flies numerous airliners over the U.S. every single day. Not to encourage the "chemtrails" kooks, but an airliner could carry a far larger bio/chem payload and distribute it more deliberately than any balloon.

I agree that the PRC government is a serious threat, but let's not go overboard about this silly balloon incident. Instead of playing tough and shooting the thing down, it's far more productive to do what we are doing now: taking lots of pictures and video, publishing the track, and generally saying to the world, "This is a pretty pathetic espionage attempt. And China claims to be a world power?"

Embarrassing Xi Jing Ping is a much better result than anything we could get from analyzing the crashed wreckage of his spy balloon.

CZ

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 01:47PM

Concrete Zipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> let's not go overboard about this
> silly balloon incident.

Future students will be learning about it in history class: The Silly Balloon Incident of February 2023.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: February 05, 2023 11:01PM

It will rank right up there with the Bowling Green massacre.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 01:53PM

> Embarrassing Xi Jing Ping is a much better result
> than anything we could get from analyzing the
> crashed wreckage of his spy balloon.

Generally agree. But the equipment on the balloon is useful information not only regarding the technology but also the information on what was observed and transmitted.

There's a good chance that the US will take the balloon down.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 02:44PM

This says more about what's going on inside the Chinese government more than anything else.


High-stakes diplomatic meetings take months of planning, so either the Chinese are telling the truth about the balloon getting out of control, or more likely, someone didn't want the Blinken meeting to go ahead -- or maybe just forgot to tell the surveillance team what was going on diplomatically.

The USA flew U-2s and SR-71s over the USSR and China, and Eisenhower deliberately let the Russians send the first satellite into orbit to prevent them (or anyone else) from claiming "space" rights over their borders as a precursor to satellite reconnaissance.


It's also not easy to shoot down a balloon like this (only the F-15 and F-22 can reach that altitude in a zoom climb), and also not easy to shoot it down and retrieve the payload even over water, so let's see what happens.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2023 02:46PM by anybody.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 07:19PM

> High-stakes diplomatic meetings take months of
> planning, so either the Chinese are telling the
> truth about the balloon getting out of control, or
> more likely, someone didn't want the Blinken
> meeting to go ahead . . .

There's a third option, which I believe is the correct one.

In recent years China has been trying to assert that the US is in decline--"the era of liberalism is over"--and more recently it thought Washington very much wanted the summit to occur. Launching the balloon right before Blinken's visit was a way to embarrass the US and make it look like the supplicant, coming hat in hand to Beijing, despite the violation of US air space.

Biden called China's bluff in the best possible way. First, the admin brought the matter to the world's attention, declaring that balloon was a surveillance aircraft and getting China on record that it was a civilian vessel. Second, the administration canceled Blinken's trip in a manner that basically told Beijing to kiss its own singularity. Third, the US shot it down and is in the process of retrieving the equipment.

Compare that to what caffiend and others have recommended: down the moment it entered US territory. Would that really have been superior to getting China on record as saying it was a peaceful civilian balloon and then shooting it down to prove that Beijing is lying? This is an instance of reverse Gary Powers and it's been handled correctly.

While Biden has screwed some important things up--I'm looking at you, Afghanistan--he's getting most elements of foreign policy right. We've moved out of the era of checkers and are back to playing chess with more or less skill. But thank God the United States is no longer writing "love letters" to Kim Jung Un, saying it "loves" Xi Jinping, and applauding Putin as a "genius" for wrecking its own military even more than its target.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Humberto ( )
Date: February 05, 2023 04:22PM

I think it's more like poker than checkers or chess. You can be holding great cards, but if the table finds that out early in the deal, you won't win any money...suddenly in my mind, there's a needle starting to graze the surface of a Kenny Rogers vinyl.

In addition to the "strategery" you mention (and this is pure speculation on my part) there may have been technical reasons for the delay in releasing the missile. Attempts have failed in the past. Given that shooting at balloons with expensive missiles doesn't seem commonplace, it's easy to imagine that some investigation may have been needed...radar guided vs. infrared... Will the guidance system track?...Will the target detector "see" the balloon?, etc. (It's also possible that balloon scenarios have been accounted for, they already have the established tactics, and the DoD was debating whether or not it was worth the reveal...in any case, it's a publically proven capability now.)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 05, 2023 05:16PM

Humberto Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it's more like poker than checkers or
> chess. You can be holding great cards, but if the
> table finds that out early in the deal, you won't
> win any money...suddenly in my mind, there's a
> needle starting to graze the surface of a Kenny
> Rogers vinyl.

Agreed. But it is poker with a lot more than 52 variables and with few if any rules.


-----------------------
> In addition to the "strategery" you mention (and
> this is pure speculation on my part) there may
> have been technical reasons for the delay in
> releasing the missile. Attempts have failed in the
> past. Given that shooting at balloons with
> expensive missiles doesn't seem commonplace, it's
> easy to imagine that some investigation may have
> been needed...radar guided vs. infrared... Will
> the guidance system track?...Will the target
> detector "see" the balloon?, etc. (It's also
> possible that balloon scenarios have been
> accounted for, they already have the established
> tactics, and the DoD was debating whether or not
> it was worth the reveal...in any case, it's a
> publically proven capability now.)

My suspicion is that they could--and knew they could--shoot that thing down anytime they wanted. It's just that waiting for a few days was politically important: it focused the world's attention, enticed China into lying about the nature of the aircraft, and ensured everyone was watching when the imbroglio ended.

That too is speculation. But it's clear that the politics of this went well for the US.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 02:06PM

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (Brian Clark is a former Navy officer and graduate
> of the Navy War College, and now a fellow at the
> Hudson Institute. I appreciate that he served in
> both the enlisted and commissioned ranks. His
> bio:

Is there a reason you omitted the University of Idaho from his biography? Seriously, there are better people at Hudson, including Patrick Cronin, who is Clark's boss.

But Cronin thinks Biden's on roughly the right course:

"Postponing Secretary of State Anthony Blinken’s trip to Beijing to meet with his counterpart, Foreign Minister Qin Gang, was the correct policy decision."

https://www.hudson.org/foreign-policy/what-goes-must-come-down

The question is why you would credit the hysterical Clark rather the more balanced analysis of a serious and respected hardliner who gets things in the right perspective, one with which, insignificantly, I agree.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 01:43PM

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... there are civilian
> reports of yet another over Canada.

Yow. OK, now it's getting serious!

I want it Back in the U.S.A. asap.

Seriously though, I'm not getting too frantic about it, just going through my normal Saturday as always. I'm somewhat thinking that it isn't going to be a balloon that launches Armageddon. (Hopefully, anyway, due to the cool heads I referenced above).

For now I'm going to make like the folks in an old British comedy my mum used to watch and say Carry on, Gang. :)

And sometimes a balloon is just a balloon, no? :P

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 12:31PM

I wish there were straightforward, effective & peaceful resolutions to all the problems & challenges we face currently, but I suspect that won't present as wished.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 12:42PM

I don't like that the balloon is crossing over the U.S., but I'm going to trust that the military and the President have looked at all of the factors, and have made the best decision for now.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 01:05PM

Hey caffiend,

Have you finally broken with Trump? I mean, the only people he respects more than Xi Jinping are Kim and Putin. He and Kim "fell in love." They wrote each other "love letters." Putin is more trustworthy than the CIA. He is a "genius" for invading Ukraine--a comment that seems rather foolish given the events of the last year, in which, a Russian general stated the other day, the country has lost more troops than it had in its entire army at the beginning of the conflict.

In 2020, at Davos--insecure child that he is, Trump always liked to be "seen" at big events held by the "in" crowd, to make the NYT's Maggie Haberman approve of him, to impress Bob Woodward--Trump said that he and Xi "love each other." At a campaign rally later that year in Iowa he again expressed admiration for Xi and applauded him for ruling China with an "iron fist."

You have repeated Trump's lies for years, come hell or high facts, and yet at some point you decided you could distance yourself from his views and still be a loyal MAGAT. When was that? And does your new realism entail rejection of Trump's other "lovers?" Does your social club still "love" Kim Jung Un? Do you still think Putin's a "genius?"

You guys have the geopolitical integrity of a gnat, tossed about by the winds of incoherence. And yet you ask to be taken seriously. . .

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Anonymous Muser ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 04:00PM

And he's *still* polishing Putin's, um, apple. Just 5 days ago, he doubled down on trusting Putin while trashing U.S. intelligence. That's a real American right there.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/trump-makes-shocking-comments-trusting-231949991.html

(original article behind paywall so I linked to this version)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 07:21PM

Correct. Trump has proven that he'll polish the apple of any murderous dictator.

It's democracy he doesn't respect.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Concrete Zipper ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 03:32PM

Ninety nine Chinese balloons in the sky
Ninety nine Chinese balloons
You shoot one down
It falls to the ground
Ninety eight Chinese balloons in the sky

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 03:53PM

I wonder if anything would have been done except that it was plainly visible from the ground, and thus reported. It should have been shot down, with the debris collected for analysis, as soon as it entered US airspace over the Pacific.

One report stated that it "re-entered US airspace over Idaho," which probably explains the Canadian sighting.

And no, I don't think balloons will commence by "dropping general nastiness." But they can be one of several, even many, offensive instruments. The PLA now knows how to exploit the North American jet stream.

Some analysis from Fox, if that isn't verboten:

"Rebekah Koffler, President of Doctrine & Strategy Consulting and a former DIA intelligence officer, argued that any information or insights that the U.S. can glean from the balloon do not outweigh the damage caused by allowing a Chinese device to breach U.S. airspace. I suppose there's value in not shooting it down, but I think the risk of the Chinese thinking that they could just breach our airspace without consequences, in my view, far outweighs whatever insight we can glean from that particular balloon that we don't know already from other sources," Koffler, who specializes in foreign aerospace threats, doctrines and operations, told Fox News Digital.

Koffler explained that the balloon effectively provides a couple of different advantages to China that more conventional and expected spy methods might not, chiefly the ability to hover and collect data in addition to seeing what range of capabilities China can bring against the United States as it starts "preparing the battlefield."

"Satellites move, they don’t hover over a target," Koffler said. "We don’t know what kind of sensors are in this particular balloon, but there are various types of sensors" for what she called "measurement intelligence. It appears as though this particular spy balloon could be doing – and again, we don’t have that confirmed – but it could be collecting our signals intelligence . . . and it could be collecting our communications coming out of [military] targets and those facilities," she added, clarifying that it could be looking at communications volume to understand operational procedures of the U.S. military.

"With the Chinese increasing tensions and their force posture with regards to Taiwan, what they are concerned about is our response, so tracking any kind of spike in communications could indicate to them that we’re getting ready to do something."

The U.S. sits in a delicate position with its stockpiles of missiles and munitions weakened following a year-long effort to supply Ukraine as it pushes back Russia’s invasion. Still, that effort may have left the U.S. strained – the perfect opportunity for China to test the capabilities of the single most significant deterrent to its plans to retake Taiwan...

The fact that we did not pre-empt that balloon from entering U.S. airspace is significant to them....

Partially, the Chinese may be looking to see what other capabilities they can bring to bear in a Taiwan situation, since they know the U.S. is a "tech-reliant" nation, meaning they must look at what other methods they can "bring to the table," according to Koffler. Such methods might include what many consider "low tech," like the surveillance balloon, despite the potentially sophisticated detection technology that it carries. These additional capabilities could help "cover the gaps" in other surveillance capabilities.

"It is a gradual kind of building a composite picture of what the battle environment would be if things went south," Koffler concluded."

***

Wish I could share your trust in our military's decision process, Summer. Remember the Battle of Kabul, August 2021?

https://i.redd.it/x90593rgpri71.jpg

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: I ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 04:36PM

In agreement, w/ you: "I wonder if anything would have been done except that it was plainly visible from the ground, and thus reported. It should have been shot down, with the debris collected for analysis, as soon as it entered US airspace over the Pacific."



AND-
"The fact that we did not pre-empt that balloon from entering U.S. airspace is significant to them...."

BOOM

Do something?
Or, nothing?

Hmmm

1 Luft Balloon (1980s) 99 Luft/ Red Balloons

David Crosby - Like a bauble balancing on a pin...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U2mIEKZKBo

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: summer ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 05:46PM

It looks like it was brought down in the vicinity of Holden Beach, North Carolina. Holden Beach is a little bit southwest of Wilmington, and not too far from the South Carolina border. Kudos to the pilot who shot it down.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: I ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 04:06PM

I never saw the moon in the balloon-

So I MOONED it...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 04:29PM

How do they know the balloon is from China and not some kid's birthday party?

For all the attention it got, the distraction value of putting it up there is immense so it could be anybody with that kind of motivation.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: I ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 04:54PM

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do they know the balloon is from China and not
> some kid's birthday party?
>
> For all the attention it got, the [media]
> value [coverage] of putting it up there is immense so it
> could be anybody with that kind of motivation.


Kids? Smart these days. Wanna be you tuber kid sends tracking balloon across the seize to watch mommy as she skies the skies throughout the jet streams, jetsetting in style in B.C., western Canada and then slipping and sliding the slopes (according to Snopes - and Snoopy! Yay - and Snoop Dog too) of the best northwest American cloud power this week.

Could be the Chinese thought America might buy it.
She buys much else coming out of there, on the way to the dump.

Who knows?
Not me.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 06:08PM

So it was caused by global warming

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: StratoFiend ( )
Date: February 04, 2023 06:19PM

As you know, China is not expected to abide by to the Paris "Climate" Accords until late in the decade. This weather balloon demonstrates that China is eager to get on board with the "Global Warming"agenda.
I am greatly encouraged.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: February 05, 2023 03:29PM

I suppose there is no end to farcical stories. Weather balloon gets blown off course, military says it's not a threat, then the public is hyperventilating about evil China (well, they did take their jobs) and demanding that something be done. The sky wasn't really falling until they sent up an F-22 to shoot down a little part of it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 05, 2023 03:34PM

Imagine if they'd shot it down over land...

How many attorneys would be buying advertising time for their "Have you or a loved one been injured by falling Chinese balloon debris?!!!"

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: tumwater ( )
Date: February 05, 2023 08:24PM

One of the news reports I heard, someone suggested the balloon wasn't shot down over Montana because the debris would spread out over 400 square miles, with possibly hitting a school or hospital.

Watching the balloon falling when it was shot down over the east coast, it looked like the debris fell almost straight down within the space of maybe 5
acres. Five acres versus 250,000 acres (400 square miles) is a minimal risk.

I feel we are getting the run around by the powers in control... Chicken Little, the sky is falling.

Why wasn't it shot down over Alaska, it is less populated as compared to Montana and less likely to kill someone.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 05, 2023 08:37PM

> Why wasn't it shot down over Alaska, it is less
> populated as compared to Montana and less likely
> to kill someone.

Because the government was using the incident to cause China the maximum possible reputational damage.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: tumwater ( )
Date: February 05, 2023 08:43PM

I think the delayed action shows our reluctance to upset the Chinese.

There is an uneasiness of the ties between the two countries.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 05, 2023 09:40PM

Quite the opposite.

At least one such balloon crossed over US territory during the Trump administration and the government simply ignored it. That's what you do if you don't want to offend China. If the current administration had wanted to keep things quiet, it could have done so.

Instead, the White House chose to publicize the intrusion, protest diplomatically, cancel a meeting between Blinken and Xi, keep the focus on the balloon for several days, and then bring it down. The purpose of this episode was to show the world that while the US wants better relations with China, it will absolutely not tolerate intrusions on American sovereignty.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: tumwater ( )
Date: February 05, 2023 10:00PM

Lots of grand standing, might make for a good Monty Python skit.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 05, 2023 10:15PM

Well, grandstanding matters in politics and geopolitics.

Hence Xi Jinping's appearance with Putin at the Olympics, a gesture meant to frighten the West; Xi's astounding performance at the recent party congress, when in the front of the entire Chinese world he had his predecessor Hu Jintao escorted off the stage and out of the auditorium; and China's indignant declaration, even now, that the balloon was civilian. Each one of these decisions is strategically significant.

Recall the Gary Powers incident. A US surveillance aircraft went missing, Moscow said it had been spying over the USSR, Washington denied that, and then the Soviets produced both the plane and its pilot. That was humiliating for the US, showed that Eisenhower was a liar, and demonstrated to the world that Moscow's technology was better than anyone had suspected.

Clearly the US has learned something in the last 60 years.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Humberto ( )
Date: February 05, 2023 08:40PM

Warhead fragments aren't going to fall straight down.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed. Please start another thread and continue the conversation.