I spent 35 years devoutly LDS including a foreign mission, high councilor, and stake president. At age 48 I had a major mid-life crisis where my choices were die or start over. I decided to start over, zero-based spiritual budgeting. I read widely for 20 years including all the major scriptures, history, cosmology, physics, astronomy, chemistry, psychology, anthropology, archeology, evolution, evolutionary psychology, management, religion, philosophy, physiology, brain chemistry, genetics, childhood development, and other related fields.

Thing is, most people won't read those fields and certainly not to their children. What do ex-Mormons read to their kids? Where does one go for insight and truth when one leaves the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the D&C, PoGP, the Koran, the Bagavagita, etc.? What do you teach your children now?

I wanted to do more than grouse or hold hands and share experiences. I wrote my own book since I couldn't find one that would encompass all of that. It is A Song of Humanity: a science-based alternative to the world's scriptures. 20 pp of references, 900 endnotes, AND written as a conversation between parent and child with no dogma, only questions.

Table of Contents: Genesis, Exodus, Gods, Prophets, Conquerors, Rights and Laws, Genes, VABEs, Intelligence, Mating, Children, Self, Families, Proverbs, Matter, Air, Water, Money, Culture, Apocalypse, Revelations, Index, References, Endnotes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2023 08:02AM by Jajisee.

I think you are selling grousing, holding hands and sharing experiences way short.

Nor do I think reading to children is the most effective way to pass on your values to your children, though I think I understand wr you are coming from with that. I grew up in a home where I had scripture and inane lessons read to me every Monday evening and every Sunday. That didn’t work out all that well. I picked up certain values there, but the overarching goal, to be a good little Mormon, obviously didn’t take.

I don’t have great advice about how to pass on your values. I was an avid reader as a child, and still am. On the other hand, my siblings combined could not fill a small bookcase. Why the difference? I have no idea. I am the oldest, and the oldest tends to be more bookish. Beyond that, I don’t know.

Sounds like you were a non-believing church leader, and felt like a phony. Kids are remarkably good at sniffing out phoniness, so your leaving Mormonism to put more integrity into your life was likely an excellent move for teaching integrity to your children.

Perhaps over interpreting here. Did not feel like a phony at the time. And yes, holding hands is comforting.

Various books on stoicism have been pretty good in inducing that "Hmmm maybe this is a better way" type of thoughts.

I wonder how many families read Cicero and Seneca these days. I have. A Song of Humanity: a science-based alternative to the world's scriptures is much easier, more direct, and illustrated.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2023 11:29AM by Jajisee.

Let children have free access to a library, and they will select books that interest them. For kids in the 8-10 year old range, I like to read aloud Charlotte's Web, which teaches about friendship, and Stone Fox, which teaches about bravery and sacrifice. I also enjoyed reading aloud Little House in the Big Woods, which is a good book about American Pioneer life.

Okay. Talking spiders gets us back to mythology and metaphors. One chooses what one wants and/or the children like. My answer was A Song of Humanity: a science-based alternative to the world's scriptures.

I can see how you arrived where you did. Reading everything I could was an individual quest for me. I was a scientist by education and had not spent adequate time exploring history, philosophy, literature, art, etc. The flood gates opened and I took classes where I could (anthropology especially).

All the reading led to lots of discussions with my family. Thankfully they were inspired to be readers too. Most of the wisdom of the world is out there in books for anyone who is searching.

One big lesson I learned is that there are no gurus who I agree with about everything. Whether it is a philosopher, scientist, author, spiritual leader, or political leader, there is always something abhorrent I discover about them. I've learned to take the gems where I can and keep my expectations for humanity low.

I think we mostly teach our children by example and with conversations about everything. Inspiring them to read opens the world.

If I could do it all over again, I would have kept a list of all the influential books I read over the decades.

EOD keeps a list of magazines.

I was a Junior Woodchuck!!

Thanks Dagny. One of the things that bugged me about the Church was its advice on what to read and what not to read. My ASOH book has 20 pp of reference books I've read. And a recommended bibliography on my website. I have a little OCD so tended to keep track of things like that. (Plus bad memory) And yes, what two humans ever agreed about everything? And I liked your reasoned tone. I guess we'd enjoy conversation. Cheers

If I had children, I'd read to them while they were too little to do so, whatever I wanted. Everything from Stephen King to David Foster Wallace. And frequent visits to libraries and used book shops to get them excited about being around books and bringing books home. Then, as they are able to start reading themselves, I'd let them pick out whatever they want. If they're 6 and picking out trade paperback novels, absolutely fine. They'll stumble through unfamiliar words until they learn definitions through their usage. If they prefer picture books, I'll encourage that too.

The point is to just get them familiar with reading and books and being read to. And I don't want to ever tell them, "Oh, that's a grown up book. Too big for you." I don't want to limit them or make them feel like they can only enjoy particular books at a particular time in their life. And I would never tell them their opinions are wrong but if they wanted to share their ideas, if they were willing to debate it a little, I'd ask questions.

One of the things I have hated so much, my entire life, is feeling so condescended to by those older than me. Like, if I had lived as long as they have, if I'd been through "REAL" struggles, I might understand the world better. I'm in my thirties and it still goes on. My ideas about the world, the changes I want to make, they're seen as childish and too idealistic. I haven't truly suffered enough for the older generation to be seen as valuable, yet any solutions from them is to just shut up and put things back to the way they were. Control and resentment for anyone yunger.

So, if I were ever a parent, at my age, I'd want to be aware at every step that this world will not be mine for much longer. My values will not be their values. The way I did things growing up, the way I have survived, the ideals I have had... I'd most importantly just want to get out of my kid's way and let them be their own person. I'd share my experiences and encourage skepticism and curiosity and a desire to read. But as far as values, I'd go with the basics on how to get along with people and tell them to question everything.

I feel like that was where they went wrong with me. I was too obedient. I was too eager to please. Not nearly curious enough even when I had my times of inactivity and self-actualization. My shelf break was literally me cleaning the knick knacks on it and it fell accidentally. If I wanted kids, if I had kids, I'd want them to never have a shelf. I'd want them to readily recognize bullshit when they hear it and not be worried about approval from anyone regarding rejecting it.

If the book was in the house, we could read it. That included my Mom’s nursing books, Dad’s engineering books and many novels, biographies and tons of National Geographic’s.

I love that. Yeah, I remember enjoying visiting my grandparents because grandpa had tons of old books of all types about history and medical encyclopedias and I could just sit in the big loveseat chair in the den(head against one arm and feet relaxed draped over the other, of course) and read whatever I liked for hours.

I have a lot of books also but mostly novels. A lot of my nonfiction reading is done online these days because the information is constantly being updated.

My thing would just be "don't ever try to curate or influence their choices. If they can read it and understand it, then great." I remember I went through a stint when I was 8-10 where I "hated" books. My mother kept buying me Babysitters club and girls with horses pre-YA books and I thought that was what books were like. About boring things. I picked up Magician Apprentice by Raymond E. Fiest from a friends house, her dad let me borrow it(I kept it; he never asked for it back) and discovered books were a lot of fun when you got to pick up and choose the ones that spoke to you.

That’s exactly how I would sit in our living room.

Jajisee, you can't sell/promote your book here. You have already had several posts pulled by admin. This board has rules and guidelines for good reason. If you are here to participate, great. If you are here to hawk your wares, it will not go well for you.

Oh, is that what this is about? *sigh*

It looks like he may be promoting it -- see one of his responses above.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2023 06:23AM by summer.

My apologies Summer if I've offended you.
I note that there are several books listed on the home page of this website. so that's confusing. And that my book provides an alternative to the mountains of misinformation in the Book of Mormon, the Bible and other major scriptures. I thought exMormons would be interested in what an evidence based description of the history the universe and humankind would look like. I guess not. The odds of deceived (by the Church) exMormons reading and summarizing 20 pp of scientific books is IMO very low. I did that. Again, sorry if I offended you.

Thank you Susan. I wrote to Eric asking about that and his inbox was not receiving mail. So I posted my questions in another post and will look for answers. That said, there are 3-4 books listed on the home page. How did they make those available to readers here?

Jajisee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you Susan. I wrote to Eric asking about
> that and his inbox was not receiving mail.

Eric has retired. I would guess his inbox is permanently not receiving mail.


> That said, there are 3-4 books
> listed on the home page. How did they make those
> available to readers here?

The rule here is to ask Admin for permission before posting information about one's own material (books, etc). And a broad basic guideline is to assume that nobody comes here to find information on other faith groups to join or belief-type books to read.

And just in general it's not that appreciated to come here with an ulterior motive.

The titles/links posted in the sticky notes at the top of the first page have been read by board administrators here and approved as information that may be of benefit to posters. But the bottom line assumption is that nobody wants to be preached at and not many (if any) come to this site looking for another religious group to join.

Posting without ulterior motives is the best way to interact here, sharing experiences others can identify with and comment on. People are kinda sick of anyone telling them what to do, how to think and in general trying to get something from them.

If an exmo wants to hear about other churches or groups or philosophies it's assumed they will seek them out on their own.

That's not to say we don't talk about those topics here but it's not with underlying intent to convert, convince or sell anything to anyone.

  
  

‘The Road To Reality’ Roger Penrose
‘Brief Answers to the Big Questions’ Stephen Hawking
‘Existential Physics A Scientist's Guide to Life's Biggest Questions’ Sabine Hossenfelder

The common thread running through all of the science books above is that they all talk a lot about Lambda, the Cosmological Constant, what Einstein called his biggest blunder, ironically, because it turned out to be right.

Pick a list of Top 100 books and start going through them.
The types many would read "cliff notes" for in college.

You inspired me.
https://youtu.be/VvKbbHKpwnU

As an ExMo myself, I sympathize with your history. However, your thesis here, and presumably in your book, is seriously misguided. In the first place, children need to be taught *values* not just raw scientific facts, however otherwise "beautiful and inspiring," and science by definition does not teach values.

On the other hand, scriptures *do* teach values, even if some of them are ill-conceived, currently rejected, or otherwise outdated. The value-laden story found in the parable of the Good Samaritan, for example, is a wonderful heuristic story on seveal levels. In short, you do not need to endorse religion, or religious myths, to appreciate the fact that in some instances scriptures (and other resources) teach important human values that science simply fails to address.

Thus, your explicit turning away from scripture per se and toward science as a substitute, or favored alternative, could not be more misguided, and dangerous--if it is proposed (as it seems to be here and in your book,) that this should be a general educational practice when teaching young children.

As one prominent (atheistic) philosopher of science noted:

"Science, at least as normally done, does not provide ethical wisdom. In fact, it seems to have no resources whatsoever for generating ethical opinion. Empirical observation tells us that some people are loving and compassionate and others are egoists. Perhaps science can tell us certain things about why they are so. But there is nothing that comes from the application of science, as normally understood, that tells us one ought to love one's neighbor. While a scientist might say you ought to be loving and compassionate, she does not get this idea from science, nor can she justify it in scientific terms."

(Owen Flanagan, *The Problem of the Soul: Two Visions of Mind and how to Reconcile Them,* p. 13)

Here are some further comments:
__________________________________________________________

"I spent 35 years devoutly LDS including a foreign mission, high councilor, and stake president. At age 48 I had a major mid-life crisis where my choices were die or start over. I decided to start over, zero-based spiritual budgeting. I read widely for 20 years including all the major scriptures, history, cosmology, physics, astronomy, chemistry, psychology, anthropology, archeology, evolution, evolutionary psychology, management, religion, philosophy, physiology, brain chemistry, genetics, childhood development, and other related fields."

COMMENT: I suspect that although the scope of your reading appears in its face to be broad, the breadth of your reading in any of these fields is obviously extremely narrow. Otherwise, you would not endorse the mistaken assumptions that you do.

I read the "Look Inside" portion of your book's Amazon listing and found blatant and irresponsible overreaching of claims to scientific knowledge, while universally disparaging "stories and myths" of religious and culture tradition; much of which at least selectively retains significant value in a child's education.
_________________________________________

"Thing is, most people won't read those fields and certainly not to their children. What do ex-Mormons read to their kids? Where does one go for insight and truth when one leaves the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the D&C, PoGP, the Koran, the Bagavagita, etc.? What do you teach your children now?"

COMMENT: Look, here is a specific challenge. Please provide me with one -- just one -- scientific reference (Author, Book, and specific reference) that could be "read" or taught to a young child as an alternative to the values expressed in, say, "The Good Samaritan." Let's make it even easier than that: Provide one single scientific theory, or scientific fact, of any kind (with author, book, and references) that supports the adoption of ANY standard humanistic value (e.g. love, kindness, respect, empathy, altruism, etc.)
_______________________________________

"I wanted to do more than grouse or hold hands and share experiences. I wrote my own book since I couldn't find one that would encompass all of that. It is A Song of Humanity: a science-based alternative to the world's scriptures. 20 pp of references, 900 endnotes, AND written as a conversation between parent and child with no dogma, only questions."

COMMENT: Good for you. But anyone can write a book. A good and helpful book is much harder. Any book that recommends teaching children only scientific facts, while abandoning traditional (or more modern) mythical stories that teach values, is by the definition of science alone deeply problematic and IMO not a good book.

___________________________________________

Table of Contents: Genesis, Exodus, Gods, Prophets, Conquerors, Rights and Laws, Genes, VABEs, Intelligence, Mating, Children, Self, Families, Proverbs, Matter, Air, Water, Money, Culture, Apocalypse, Revelations, Index, References, Endnotes.

COMMENT: Admittedly, I have not read your book, but as indicated above I have seen enough.

Hello and thanks Henry,
All humans IME have semi-conscious Values, Assumptions, Beliefs and Expectations about the way the world is or should be, VABEs for short. My thesis is definitely NOT to overlook values, rather that "It all comes down to VABEs." See Daniel Kahneman for instance (Nobel Prize) and the idea that most people trust their VABEs OVER evidence. If one starts with (and promulgates) "There is a loving, wise, omnipotent Creator Father" then what flows from that is mountains of dysfunctional misinformation.

When I stepped away from the Church, my wife and I realized we had "abdicated" what to teach our children to the Church and that we needed to develop some explicit VABEs to teach our children. We started with five and stopped eventually with eleven.

Feelings IME are easily manipulated. There's a doctor in Boston for example who can touch a part of the brain and the patient will swear that god is in the room.

I'm very much aware of and highly, enormously, respectful of VABEs. AND believing a thing doesn't make it true. IME

I'd love to hear what you think are gross mistakes in my book. I'm always open to new evidence and perspectives.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2023 01:33PM by Jajisee.

"All humans IME have semi-conscious Values, Assumptions, Beliefs and Expectations about the way the world is or should be, VABEs for short."

COMMENT: You have to differentiate here between general values, assumptions, beliefs, and expectations about the way the world is that are within the jurisdiction of science, and *human values* (moral values) which are not. "Semi-conscious" suggests (rightly) that there is some vagueness to all of this, even as applied to matters that might otherwise be within the scientific domain.
____________________________________________

"My thesis is definitely NOT to overlook values, rather that "It all comes down to VABEs." See Daniel Kahneman for instance (Nobel Prize) and the idea that most people trust their VABEs OVER evidence. If one starts with (and promulgates) "There is a loving, wise, omnipotent Creator Father" then what flows from that is mountains of dysfunctional misinformation."

COMMENT: If you are not overlooking values, why are they not mentioned? Why are you turning to science as the source for the teaching of children, when science does not address human values; and turning from a source that does, even if imperfectly. Don't you need an alternative source for THAT instruction? So, then, is the moral intuition of the parent the proper source? If so, then you need to say that, and while you are making all of these scientific references to your child, make sure the child understands that moral intuition, human values, and moral choices (free will) as to right and wrong transcends science, but nonetheless are essential to who we are.

You need to provide more about what Kahneman is claiming, with a citation and argument, before I can respond.
_____________________________________________

"When I stepped away from the Church, my wife and I realized we had "abdicated" what to teach our children to the Church and that we needed to develop some explicit VABEs to teach our children. We started with five and stopped eventually with eleven."

COMMENT: Presumably, one (or more) of the eleven related to human values. Why was this not included in your book? What chapter is it?
____________________________________________

"Feelings IME are easily manipulated. There's a doctor in Boston for example who can touch a part of the brain and the patient will swear that god is in the room."

COMMENT: That is BS. You need to provide credible citations, with explicit, detailed, scientific evidence. I hope you are not talking about Matthew Alper's ridiculous book, The God Part of the Brain, which has been thoroughly debunked by modern neuroscience. I have read this sort of thing many times, and none of it is credible as an explanation for religion, or religious experience.
________________________________________

I'm very much aware of and highly, enormously, respectful of VABEs. AND believing a thing doesn't make it true. IME

COMMENT: Of course not. We are constantly trying to sort out truth from error. However, the worst thing we can do is to assume that truth is *equated* with science, and thereby deny, or delegitimate moral truths, or for that matter, mathematical truth, which is essentially on the same footing. (An abstract Platonic reality that is beyond what is scientifically explainable.)
______________________________________

"I'd love to hear what you think are gross mistakes in my book. I'm always open to new evidence and perspectives."

COMMENT: Again, I have not read the book. However, the adult-child dialogues in the "Look Inside" section of Amazon, items 8-14 in particular, state unequivocal claims about what science "knows" or "what we have learned" about the origin of the universe and the origin of humans based upon "evidence." In fact, such "knowledge" of both is heavily theory laden. Science knows next to nothing about the Big Bang itself, and next to nothing about human consciousness, which is arguably the most important aspect of what it means to be human. So, some degree of humility is in order.

Can you describe the process for leaving this site? There seems to be no apparent way to delete one's account and posts/topics. How does one do that?

"Can you describe the process for leaving this site? There seems to be no apparent way to delete one's account and posts/topics. How does one do that?"

COMMENT: So, this is your response to the substantive comments and criticisms I made as related to your post and book; and the comments and assumptions that others made as to the intent of your thread?

It seems to me that if you can write a lengthy book as detailed and complete as you have described, with the background you have described, you ought to be able to present its ideas and defend such ideas in summary fashion. My guess is that there is likely a lot there that is worthwhile and thought-provoking, notwithstanding any criticisms or concerns others might have.

My particular interest is your Chapter on the Self. Does this chapter provide a Humanistic view of the Self (as necessary for teaching values to children), or a scientific-materialist, brain-centered, neurological view, where the ontology of the Self is essentially denied? If the latter, how can you possibly justify such a stance when educating children. If the former, you have left your original science-based agenda, and entered the world of metaphysics.

...solid contact with the ball, lofting it over the motionless centerfielder, who could only turn and stare at it, as it sailed out of the park...


(Yes, a tad euphemistic, but he earned it!  And there's the hope that he'll judge himself by this standard.)

It's good to teach a child to drive or play a sport or learn a craft, and how to make chocolate chip cookies and all the things we really should be teaching in schools. Teach math. Teach reading. Teach critical thinking.

When it comes to what children are given to read that should be everything. Any form of selecting reading material for children is indoctrination. And of course parents and others believe their indoctrination is the true and correct indoctrination. But it is indoctrination and it is promoting and agenda and it is wrong to do to a child.

Children need to exposed to all. ALL. They need to know there are many points of view. The best is know all of them. The best is to approach them according to a system of rewards and consequences. Each child should see how everything out there has an effect on themselves and others. Each child needs to know that choices make a difference and there are choices to be made constantly. What should be taught is the art of reciprocity.

Playing with a full deck is the goal. And that is why your assumption that you know what is the best reading material is something I must take exception to.

+10

Very succinctly put. Especially the last line.

"It's good to teach a child to drive or play a sport or learn a craft, and how to make chocolate chip cookies and all the things we really should be teaching in schools. Teach math. Teach reading. Teach critical thinking."

That would be nice, but I have a massive tome to write.

Back in the day I would have suggested reading "MAD MAGAZINE". Much more entertaining than any scripture ever written!

Absolutely!!!!

I used to sneak into my brothers room to read his collection.

I was always of the opinion that any and all episodes of the tv program M*A*S*H taught better moral lessons than any Sunday School lesson I can remember - and truth be told, I don't remember any of my SS lessons.

And Ted Lasso was a master class in redemption and forgiveness.

I think that fiction *can* teach good values, because everyone loves a good story. I don't know what it is about the structure of a well-constructed story or novel that grabs people, but it does.

My students love learning about science, but nothing gets their rapt attention quite like a good story. When I would read aloud to them at the end of the school day, there would be an audible groan when I had to finish off a chapter and dismiss them. I think partly it's because they come to really identify with the characters.

Is tuna fish a good alternative to peanut butter?

It's lunch time and I'm asking for a friend who may have a peanut allergy.