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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 10:13AM

Society has changed. Expect to see this happen with other denominations.

Younger people are simply no longer willing to reject their friends and family because of outdated religious dogma.

https://www.news-journal.com/ap/national/united-methodists-lose-one-fifth-of-us-churches-in-schism-driven-by-growing-defiance-of/article_154c538d-e2a1-554f-a9b5-bb074ba4dc40.html

More than 6,000 United Methodist congregations — a fifth of the U.S. total — have now received permission to leave the denomination amid a schism over theology and the role of LGBTQ people in the nation’s second-largest Protestant denomination.

Those figures emerge following the close of regular meetings in June for the denomination’s regional bodies, known as annual conferences. The departures began with a trickle in 2019 — when the church created a four-year window of opportunity for U.S. congregations to depart over LGBTQ-related issues — and cascaded to its highest level this year.

Church law forbids the marriage or ordination of “self-avowed, practicing homosexuals,” but many conservatives have chosen to leave amid a growing defiance of those bans in many U.S. churches and conferences.

Many of the departing congregations are joining the Global Methodist Church, a denomination created last year by conservatives breaking from the UMC, while others are going independent or joining different denominations.

Some 6,182 congregations have received approval to disaffiliate since 2019, according to an unofficial tally by United Methodist News Service, which has been tracking votes by annual conferences. That figure is 4,172 for this year alone, it reported.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2023 10:14AM by anybody.

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Posted by: Northern_Lights ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 11:17AM

Society has changed and these denominations are dying regardless if the are accepting of LGBTQ+ people or not. Go to some of your mainline denominations and see a lot of silver hair and empty pews.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 11:21AM

There have always been schisms, but I agree with Northern Lights that the bigger issue is the decline of the mainstream Christian churches.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 01:40PM

One nice thing about True Believers™ is that they tend to devolve into excommunicating other True Believers™ that believe in the wrong truth.

See for example the number of polygamous groups in Utah, and even the split into two groups in Bountiful, BC, Canada. True Believerhood is a self-limiting affliction.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 01:51PM

Also, I agree with NLs use of LGBTQ+. I've had it with increasingly large doses of alphabet soup. Unless I am writing about one specific subgroup beyond the first 5, everyone else gets subsumed under the "+".

Enough already. Y'all can do whatever floats your boat. Elvis and I have left the building.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 02:07PM

I feel the same way. I'm done. Honestly, I think a new name that would serve as an umbrella needs to be developed.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 02:16PM

I'm in agreement with both of you. A few weeks ago I gave up on trying to keep track of the ever-evolving names and began using the term L+.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 03:17PM


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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 04:00PM

I have no obligation to address anyone by the terms they insist upon. I may want to do so, but it's hard to hit a constantly moving target.

And frankly, it's a peripheral matter. I will call anyone by the personal name they choose and I will vote and do whatever else in my power to push towards their being treated equally. But a collective term that keeps changing? Not so much.

On this board I have used the word "gay," which is not quite correct; and I have used "non-cis," which doesn't please everyone. I long for the day when there is a term that all the relevant people find acceptable and that the rest of us can adopt.

But the game of "pin the tail on the acronym" is not, in my mind, as important as laws and supreme court cases.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 04:15PM

It might be a while, It's all new. "Sexual minorities" might be a acceptable term, but that probably won't work either.

Fundies are already trying the old "Divide And Conquer" method to get the LGB to fight against the T and other combinations thereof.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2023 04:17PM by anybody.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 04:47PM

"Sexual minorities" may work if and when the relevant people decide upon it. As with pronouns, I'll wait for clear norms to emerge. The decisions are not mine to make but I can express frustration in the interim.

And no, Fundamentalists' sensitivities do not and never will detain me. They don't care about us and I don't care about them.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 05:27PM

IMO we are in desperate need of a gender-neutral singular pronoun to substitute for he or she. As a teacher of the English language, I simply can't go with "they" to consistently substitute for he or she, i.e. "Taylor went down the hallway. There they are!" Can't do that. I'll call you Taylor all day long, but no "they," please.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 05:36PM

Agreed.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 08:30PM

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IMO we are in desperate need of a gender-neutral
> singular pronoun to substitute for he or she. As a
> teacher of the English language, I simply can't go
> with "they" to consistently substitute for he or
> she, i.e. "Taylor went down the hallway. There
> they are!" Can't do that. I'll call you Taylor all
> day long, but no "they," please.

Yeah, I can't get used to it either. Every. Single. Time. I hear or see 'they' I'm looking for plurals.

All the years of getting Correct Grammar drilled into us - it's hard to switch horses, ya know?

Maybe one day it will all be sorted out and everybody will be content.

That would be pleasant.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2023 08:31PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 04:17PM

  
  

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 04:51PM

"I'd lend you my glasses, Jesus, but they fell off my nose and I can't find them."

--Dolly Parton, who is always out in front of her skis

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 02:26PM

masquerading as religion,

Maybe we should just split up the country and let the fundies die off. Put everything back together after they're gone and move on.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: July 25, 2023 03:38PM

There's only one problem.

No one wants to live there except a handful of people.

Several states in the USA want to do this very same thing under the disguise of "religious liberty." It won't work.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orania

The town and its mono-ethnic and monoculturalist ideals have been the subject of much press coverage. The town was founded with the goal of creating a stronghold for the Afrikaner minority group, the Afrikaans language and the Afrikaner culture through the creation of an all-White Afrikaner state known as a Volkstaat.[5][6][7] The town is generally described as "Whites-only".[8][9][10][11]

By 2022, the population was 2,500. The town was experiencing rapid growth and the population had climbed by 55% from 2018.[12][13] In 2023, the population was 2,800.[14]

Living in the town requires application, and is based around being Afrikaner and fluent in Afrikaans. The town's economy is focused around self-sufficiency and based on agriculture, notably of pecan nuts. Afrikaner Calvinism is an important aspect of local culture. While the South African government has stated that it is opposed to the idea of a Whites-only community, it has generally ignored the town.[15][16] Orania prints its own money and maintains the last transitional representative council in South Africa, but receives no national funding.

Coverage generally describes Orania as culturally backward, racially intolerant, and separatist.[30][62][63] Descriptions of Orania frequently call it "whites-only", since the town only accepts white Afrikaner residents.[8][9][10][11]

In 1991, the New York Times said that Orania was a "ghost town where White supremacists dream of carving out an idyllic homeland".[64] In 1994 the Los Angeles Times described it as a "Zealots' Dream" and "a bastion of intolerance".[65] A year later the Chicago Tribune saw it as "the last pathetic holdout of the former ruling class of South Africa", continuing that "the Afrikaners who once forced blacks to live apart from the rest of society are now living in their own prison".[66] Bill Keller dubbed Orania "the racist Camelot".[67] A Mail & Guardian article describes it as a "widely ridiculed town" and a "media byword for racism and irredentism".[62] An article in The Independent similarly writes that residents of Orania "have a reputation for being racists, and that the town attracts plenty of negative press".[63] Benjamin Pogrund described Orania as a "curious hangover from the vanished terrible past".[68]

Vadim Nikitin, writing for The National in 2011, described the conventional narrative about Orania as the last bastion of apartheid, and a "pathetic outpost of embittered racists" who refuse to live in equality with black South Africans. From this perspective, it is a 1950s-style fantasy shielding locals from declining White privilege. Nikitin notes that Orania lacks some of the conventional indications of privilege found in other post-apartheid White South African suburbs, such as black servants and some material luxuries.[69] Eve Fairbanks, writing for Witness, describes Orania's heavy emphasis on self-reliance as a paradox: "While Orania is the place Whites can go to undergo the regimen most explicitly designed to cleanse themselves of the sins of apartheid, it is also the place they can go to live most visibly like they did before it ended."[70]

Regarding the near-total segregation of the town and lack of any black residents, James Kirchick and Sebastian Rich of the Virginia Quarterly Review describe an uneasy relationship between the town's residents and the county's apartheid history. Orania's strict ethnonationalism and anti-globalization are incompatible with both apartheid and the rainbow nation of modern South Africa. Despite this, Orania maintains several monuments of the apartheid which had been discarded from other places. The Orania Cultural History Museum includes busts of every apartheid president of South Africa except for F. W. de Klerk, whom the museum's director considers a "traitor" for his part in the country's transition to democracy.[71] Leon Louw, the executive director of the South African Free Market Foundation, questioned the perception that the town is a refuge for racial bigots.[72]

Gavin Haynes from Vice News said that, "If you're a certain way inclined, Orania is probably a nice place to live. It's very neighbourly. It's also one of the dullest, most achingly pointless places in Christendom".[73]

Professor Kwandiwe Kondlo, a professor in political economy at the University of Johannesburg, said that Orania served as an important safety valve for Afrikaners in transition, and that "The Afrikaners are very forward-thinking people. Orania was established as a tactical strategic exit for the Afrikaner, should the new South Africa run into serious crisis. They will then have a place to preserve themselves".[74]

Andrew Kenny, a regular contributor to The Citizen newspaper, wrote that: "Orania was a revelation to me. I was enormously impressed by its success, decency, safety, modesty, friendliness, cleanliness, by its spirit of goodwill, by its egalitarian attitudes and, above all, by its prevailing philosophy of freedom".[75]

Rebecca Davis of the Daily Maverick feels that, "What makes Orania different is that it makes no secret of its discrimination. Because of this, the town has come to occupy a place in the public imagination vastly out of proportion to its size".[76]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2023 03:39PM by anybody.

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