The church has always been an adapt and invent it as you go organization. There never was a grand plan. What Joseph organized in New York was very different than what broke apart in Nauvoo. What Brigham organized was far different than what Joseph organized. What exists now is a modern leftover of what Brigham organized and it’s not doing well in the 21st century internet era.

You have a combination of needing to change, established church culture and lot’s of money to make lots of stupid mistakes. Part of the church runs on tradition. Building temples and going on missions is the tradition. Creating an organization Generation Z wants to stay in is the challenge.

What we are seeing is more temples with watered down ceremonies and obligations. They are trying to make the temple less 19th century and more 21st century but the whole concept is dated.

What people want is some decent social ethics like being nice and helping each other. Modern people don’t want temples. They want decent people. They want enjoyable socialization. They want to be helpful in meaningful ways.

Russ is continuing the invent it as you go tradition of the church but it’s in the framework of a big established dated bureaucracy. Prophets come and go. Like presidents they can’t change too much. The bureaucracy continues and it’s more interested in just existing and keeping everyone doing their jobs.

The church has become a big tit to suck on. It exists to feed itself. Like fungus it just grows and exists.

>> Modern people don’t want temples.

From what I recall reading, TBMs were surveyed by the church, and they very much want temples. That was their main area of interest. Hence the temple building boom. Exactly how this plays out, I don't know.

It's everyone else who would appreciate decent human beings. But that's never been very high on the agenda of the Q15 -- just tithing and obedience.

I used to be very involved in marketing and what you learn dealing with market research is people will tell you they want what the don’t want because it’s the best choice on a list of things they really don’t want.

New temples are like a new house or car. It’s exciting to get a new thing but that excitement soon wears off. Most members don’t like garments, the endowment, washing and anointing and the crazy clothes.

If this stuff was popular the church wouldn’t be changing it. They are polishing a turd.

Even if it were true about the temples, I can all but guarantee that's not what potential converts want. People who are looking for churches want a sense of community (meaning among other things, lots of activities,) and if they have young children, they want strong youth programs. The Mormon leadership has bled so much money from the wards that neither one is possible. And it also may not match up with what the generational TBMs want.

Walking in circles is eternal progression.

Great way to put it!

I agree with summer. There is a certain class of TBM Mormon that goes completely ape***t over temples. They organize their vacations around visiting temples and doing sessions.

Success in Mormonism is largely defined as creating more Mormons, either by converting people (that's how you get to be AP on a mission - that and having a penis, that is), or birthing more Mormons, or dead-dunking more Mormons.

Of those three, only the last - temple ordinances to "create" new Mormons, doesn't get substantial pushback from the larger society. Temple work is far and away the easiest way to prove that you really really really pretty please with a cherry on it deserve the Celestial Kingdom™.

I don't know how many younger Mormons still buy into that, but plenty of older ones do.

Out of all my nieces and nephews only 2 out of the 7 are active in the church. Out of the two active ones only one loves the temple. The other one thinks it’s weird.

>>They organize their vacations around visiting temples and doing sessions.

That's true for some. It's kind of a status humble brag thing. A while back, I heard two women (both wives of doctors) trying to top each other with their righteousness.

Wife #1: I left my coat in the London temple!
Wife #2: That's a shame. We were traveling from visiting the Switzerland temple to the temple in Germany and saw GA Elder So-n-so. It was such a special experience!

Leave it to the church to figure out a way to dominate people's vacations.

I agree with you Rubicon the church has changed much over all the years.

Nice to see you, Adam. I hope you are well.

Good to see you as well. Thought I would say hi and check in.

I'm sure many people will want to say hello.

Is old dog still around.

   
 

Hahahaha is the rivalry with Schroedercat STILL going on?

Adam Warrior Wrote:
-------------------------
> Hahahaha is the rivalry
> with Schroedercat STILL
> going on?


Well, I could offer you some weasel wordage, verbiage, regarding how nuanced the situation has become, but then Gladys Lot would pop in and make fun of both The Cat and Me ... and YOU!

She's a mean girl, through and through!!

Well, I can handle being made fun of a little better than I used to. Did I just set myself up to get made fun of? I believe I did old dog.

The Cat and the Dog rivalry kind of makes me want to sing a little song. The never ending stoooooory nah nah nah, nah nah nah, the never ending stoooooory hahaha.

Nope.

He made fun of Gladys, whoever that may be; and perhaps of himself and even Sir The Cat. The only joke on you, if one was intended, would be over your asking whether the extremes of good and evil, of light and darkness, of rival carnivores, can ever be reconciled.

"Remember, dear reader, that sometimes Jesus uses ornate prose to conceal not deep thought but rather the lack thereof. The trick is trying to figure out which is which."

--Anonymous deacon, stuck in the mud at Burning Man and afraid his parents will figure out that he's not really sleeping over at the bishop's home



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2023 12:59AM by Lot's Wife.

I think I understand what you are saying. Sometimes it's over my head admittedly.

EOD likes to keep everyone guessing. Sometimes he sprinkles nuggets of wisdom in his posts but other times he just pretends to do so and laughs when readers pull their hair out looking for a coherent message.

If you don't understand some of what he writes, in other words, your batting average is close to perfect.

You wouldn't believe, Adam, what cats and dogs do with each other nowadays.

It's enough to make a woman blush!

Jebus, sounds serious.

The first thing their bishop asks is "Was it doggie style?".

Hello cl2. Doing the best I can I feel at this point in my life.

Hi, Adam. How's your summer going? We are burning up here in Maryland.

When you say burning up what do you mean? Like forest fires or it's hot in the sun? I don't watch the news so I really don't know too much of what is going on out there haha.

It's extremely hot -- 100 degrees in Central Maryland over the next few days. Although we did get smoke from the Canadian wildfires some time ago.

At least there's a chance
you can fish off a bridge.  

It just ain't gonna happen
in a temple.

Looking at strategies for businesses that have stagnated--not that the Mormon Church has stagnated--oh, no, not at all, the Lord Omnistagnant? Perish the thought.

I did find this:


1. Stop Before Doing More Damage



Unfortunately, many business owners recognize that they’re stagnating, internally panic, and instead of stopping what they’re doing, they keep doing what they’re doing but do it even harder thinking that it’ll improve their situation.

The truth is that, if you’re in trouble, sticking with the status quo will only get you into more trouble…

For example, if you’re trying to penetrate into a new market but new customers aren’t responding to your sales and marketing strategy, the answer isn’t to go even harder on that sales and marketing strategy... Rather, the answer is to take a step back, assess what about the strategy could be causing problems, and then make appropriate changes.



So temples. Always been the way to go and always will. Because no need for the G.A.s to pause and find a new course. That may work for businesses, but let's face it, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is DEFINITELY NOT A BUSINESS. Like for sure. Really. I swear.

Insanity is doing the same failed things over and over. The church is insane.

Also organizations with lots of working capital can make stupid mistakes because it’s easier to just spend more money than to do a meaningful strategic analysis.

The temple insanity is going to be a multiple monument to failure.

They could just make church enjoyable enough that people don't care if it's true but like going. Of course the current G.A.s would have to look up the word "enjoyment" in the dictionary and even take some classes in it.

Sadly, a case can be made that General Authorities believe that making someone feel bad is part of their job description.

If they can make you feel bad about yourself, it's been a good day because they can hope that they've maybe helped to push you another millimeter down the road to perfection.

But none of us can attain perfection, which the church and its pompous geriatric core of NDA'd self-promoted General Authorities are fine with, because it's only through the hoped-for intervention of Jesus H. Christ, via his infinite bank of forgiveness, that we can be boosted up into the top bunk of the Celestial Kingdom...if you catch him on a good day.

But suppose you catch Jesus when he's having a bad hair day, so rather than excusing the imperfection of your humanity and boosting you up, he moodily sends you to Outer Darkness, N. Dakota, where it's February for all Eternity, and you have no heating, no inside plumbing.

If Mortal Existence is a mere flicker in our eternal lives, and forgiveness is a fact of eternal life (like it's okay to kill Laban, or any of the other atrocities committed by religion), then why isn't EVERYONE saved?

The notion that "no man will be tempted above his ability to resist that temptation" is utter bullcrap.  Ask the Uruguayan soccer players who crashed in the Peruvian Andes about temptation overcoming "moral" rules of life.

If there is a ghawd, mormons are totally on the wrong track in terms of trying to ID him/her/it/them and what he/she/it/them might want from us...which is probably nothing more than maybe a birthday card or the occasional shout-out and ball or card games, for extra run-good...


...not that I ever think about any of this silly stuff...

The idea that we should aim for perfection (i.e. a spotless soul) was one of my major problems with Catholicism. I came to feel that perfection was an unrealistic and unhealthy goal. No one expects it of their kids, so why would God expect it of us? Didn't he make us this way?

And when I went to college, and learned about Taoism, I came to accept the idea that imperfection should not only be embraced, but celebrated. Nature is not perfect, and neither are we. Sometimes broken things that are repaired are stronger, more interesting, and wiser, in a sense.

I would no longer make a confession to anyone. What would I confess? That I'm human?

Perhaps advocating for kindness, whenever possible, is the better goal.

> Sometimes broken things that
> are repaired are stronger,
> more interesting, and wiser,
> in a sense.

Kintsugi is the Japanese art of putting broken pottery pieces back together with gold — built on the idea that by embracing flaws and imperfections, you can create an even stronger, more beautiful piece of art.  (and more interesting human beings)


https://www.google.com/search?q=japanese+broken+pottery+repaired+with+gold&rlz=1C1CHZN_enUS941US941&oq=japanese+broken&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgDEAAYgAQyBwgAEAAYgAQyBggBEEUYOTIHCAIQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQABiABDIHCAUQABiABDIHCAYQABiABDIHCAcQABiABDIHCAgQABiABDIHCAkQABiABNIBCDc3MDBqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&bshm=rimc/1

I think they break that stuff just so they can put it back together. I really need to live more dangerously.

Yes EOD, that's exactly what I was thinking of.

I put that to practice this week. Some school items were vandalized, and instead of starting from scratch, I repaired them instead. I was very pleased with the results, which I felt improved the items in question.

> So, both functional and beautiful, if only on a
> plane that religiosity can't/won't comprehend.

. . . that WESTERN religiosity can't/won't comprehend. Wabi-sabi, the art of the unique, of the broken, of the imperfection of life, is very much a Japanese religious sensibility. The same ethos may be seen in Shinto, where shrines were built to celebrate unique natural formulations of rock, trees, rivers, etc.

More immediate than the Western comparison, however, is the Chinese one. Chinese gardens are balanced: a tree on the right of a scene must be balanced by a tree on the left, a rock by a rock, etc. This emphasizes harmony and balance between opposing forces, the order that is supposed to inform both nature and society. You'll see it if you ever visit a traditional Chinese temple.

Japan borrowed Buddhism and other philosophical ideas from China but the earlier aesthetic never gave way. Wabi-sabi survived China's influence, the later Western influence, and the turn of Japan from religious thinking to the agnosticism of today. It is a uniquely Japanese idea although there is something similar in Finnish/Estonian art as well.