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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 16, 2014 04:39PM

The excavated rubble from the mountain of Mormon skinback is amazing to behold:

*Dr. Ray T. Matheny, BYU professor of Anthropology:

"[It appears that the Book of Mormon] had no place in the New World whatsoever. . . . [It] just doesn't seem to fit anything . . . in anthropology [or] history. . . . It seems misplaced."

". . . [After the opening seven chapters of the Book of Mormon relating to Lehi], it doesn't seem like a translation to me. . . . And the terminologies and the language used and the methods of explaining and putting things down are 19th century literary concepts and cultural experiences one would expect Joseph Smith and his colleagues would experience. And for that reason I call it transliteration, and I’d rather not call it a translation after the 7th chapter. And I have real difficulty in trying to relate these cultural concepts as I've briefly discussed here with archeological findings that I'm aware of. . . . If I were doing this cold . . . , I would have to look for the place of the Book of Mormon events to have taken place in the Old World. It just doesn't seem to fit anything that . . . has been taught . . . . in my discipline in anthropology, And the terminologies and the language used and the methods of explaining and putting things down are 19th century literary concepts and cultural experiences one would expect Joseph Smith and his colleagues would experience. And for that reason I call it transliteration, and I’d rather not call it a translation after the 7th chapter. And I have real difficulty in trying to relate these cultural concepts as I've briefly discussed here with archeological findings that I'm aware of." (Matheny, response at "Book of Mormon Archeology" Sunstone Symposium, 25 August 1984, typed copy transcribed from tape recording, pp. 30-31)

--"The Book of Mormon talks about ferrous and non‑ferrous metallurgical industries. A ferrous industry is a whole system of doing something. It's just not an esoteric process that a few people are involved in, but ferrous industry.., means mining iron ores and then processing these ores and casting [them] into irons. . . . This is a process that's very complicated. . . . [I]t also calls for cultural backup to allow such an activity to take place. . . . In my recent reading of the Book of Mormon, I find that iron and steel are mentioned in sufficient context to suggest that there was a ferrous industry here. . . . You can't refine ore without leaving a bloom of some kind or impurities that blossom out and float to the top of the ore. . . . [A]nd also the flux of limestone or whatever is used to flux the material.. . . . [This] blooms off into silicas and indestructible new rock forms. In other words, when you have a ferroused metallurgical industry, you have these evidences of the detritus that is left over. You also have the fuels, you have the furnaces, you have whatever technologies that were there performing these tasks; they leave solid evidences. And they are indestructible things.. . . . No evidence has been found in the new world for a ferrous metallurgical industry dating to pre‑Columbian times. And so this is a king‑size kind of problem, it seems to me, for the so‑called Book of Mormon archaeology. This evidence is absent." (Matheny, speech at same Sunstone symposium, 25 August 1984)

--"While some people chose to make claims for the Book of Mormon through archaeological evidences, to me they are made prematurely, and without sufficient knowledge. I do not support the [Mormon-authored] books written on this subject including The Messiah in Ancient America, or any other. I believe that the authors are making cases out of too little evidences and do not adequately address the problems that archaeology and the Book of Mormon present. I would feel terribly embarrassed if anyone sent a copy of any book written on the subject to the National Museum of Natural History--Smithsonian Institution, or other authority, making claims that cannot as yet be substantiated. . . . [T]here are very severe problems in this field in trying to make correlations with the scriptures. Speculation, such as practiced so far by Mormon authors has not given church members credibility." (Matheny letter dated 17 December 1987)
_____


*Dr. Dee F. Green, former editor of BYU's "University Archaeological Society Newsletter":

--"The first myth we need to eliminate is that Book of Mormon archaeology exists.. . . If one is to study Book of Mormon archaeology, then one must have a corpus of data with which to deal. We do not. The Book of Mormon is really there so one can have Book of Mormon studies, and archaeology is really there so one can study archaeology, but the two are not wed. At least they are not wed in reality since no Book of Mormon location is known with reference to modern topography. Biblical archaeology can be studied because we do know where Jerusalem and Jericho were and are, but we do not know where Zarahemla and Bountiful (nor any other location for that matter) were or are. It would seem then that a concentration on geography should be the first order of business, but we have already seen that twenty years of such an approach has left us empty‑handed." (Green, "Book of Mormon Archaeology: The Myths and the Alternatives," in "Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, 4, No. 2 (Summer 1969), pp. 77-78)
_____


*Dr. David Johnson, BYU professor of Anthropology:

--"What I would say to you is there is no archeological proof of the Book of Mormon. You can look all you want. And there's been a lot of speculation about it. There've been books written by Mormon scholars saying that 'this event took place here' or 'this event took place here.' But that's entirely speculative. There is absolutely no archeological evidence that you can tie directly to events that took place." (Johnson, personal telephone conversation with Mike London, 23 July 1997)
_____


*Dr. John Clark, BYU professor of Anthropology:

--"Now, I'm an archeologist, and I work in Mexico where some people think that the events occurred. So a lot of Mormons ask me every week if I find any evidence. And I tell them, 'No.' ... [T]he question of how to translate what the Book says in terms of real evidence that we can grab in our hands, archeologically, is still a huge problem" (John Clark, personal telephone conversation with Mike London, 25 July 1997)
_____


*Mormon Archaeologist and Founder of BYU's Mormon CHurch‑sponsored UNew World Archaeological Foundation, Thomas S. Ferguson:

--"One cannot fake over 3000 years . . . of history and have the fake hold water under the scrutiny given the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is either fake or fact. If fake, the cities described in it are non‑existent. If fact — as we know it to be — the cities will be there. If the cities exist, and they do, they constitute tangible, physical, enduring, unimpeachable evidence that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God and that Jesus Christ lives." (Ferguson, letter to Mormon Church First Presidency, 15 March 1958, in Ferguson Collection, Brigham Young University)

--"The real implication . . . is that you can't set the Book of Mormon geography down anywhere‑‑because it is fictional and will never meet the requirements of the dirt‑archeology. I should say‑‑what is in the ground will never conform to what is in the book." (Ferguson quoted in Stan Larson, "The Odyssey of Thomas Stuart Ferguson," in "Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought" 23 (1), Spring 1990, p. 79)

--"10 years have passed.. . . I had sincerely hoped that Book‑of‑Mormon cities would be positively identified within 10 years--and time has proved me wrong in my anticipation." (Ferguson, quoted in Michael D. Coe, "Mormons and Archaeology: An Outside View," in "Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 8 (2), Summer 1973, pp. 40–48)

--"I'm afraid that up to this point, I must agree with Dee Green, who has told us that to date there is no Book‑of‑Mormon geography." (Ferguson, quoted in "Written Symposium on Book-of-Mormon Geography: Response of Thomas S. Ferguson to the Norman & Sorenson Papers," p. 29)

--"After many years of careful study, the real importance of Book of Mormon archaeology has dawned on me. It will take but a moment to explain. The Book of Mormon is the only revelation from God in the history of the world that can possibly be tested by scientific physical evidence. . . . To find the city of Jericho is merely to confirm a point in history. To find the city of Zarahemla is to confirm a point in history but it is also to confirm, through tangible physical evidence, divine revelation to the modern world through Joseph Smith, Moroni, and the Urim and Thummim. Thus, Book of Mormon history is revelation that can be tested by archaeology." (Ferguson, letter to the First Presidency, 10 April 1953, Ferguson Collection, Brigham Young University)

--“Right now I am inclined to think that all of those who claim to be ‘prophets,’ including Moses, were without a means of communicating with deity. I’m inclined to think that when Moses was on top of the mount, he was talking to himself and decided that the only way he could get the motley crowd at the bottom of the slope to come to order and to listen to him and to heed him was to tell them that he had talked to God on the mount. If this view is correct, then prophets are nothing more than mortal men like the rest of us, except they saw a great need for change and had the courage to say they had communicated with God and had received a message for man, and were believed (though false in the basic claim that the message came from God and not from man). . . . Right now I think Hoffer [author of 'The True Believer'] comes very close to the truth about prophets and organized religions. Right now I am inclined to think that all who believe in ‘prophets’ as true agents of God are being spoofed--but perhaps for their own good and welfare. When Joseph Smith crash-landed, a lot came down with him, as I see it.” (Ferguson to Wesley P. Walters, 6 July 1971, Ferguson Collection, University of Utah)

--“All elements of religion that are supernatural (including endless string of miracles in the New Testament) are fabrications of men like Joseph Smith. . . . Further, I presently believe that Mormonism is as good a brand of supernatural religion (which sells well) as any other – including Protestantism. At the present time I am inclined to believe that supernatural religion, selling as it does, does more good than it does harm (although this is highly debatable). . . . In my opinion, the average Protestant and the average Catholic is as blind to basic truths as is the average Mormon. If I were going to attack Joseph Smith, I would want to attack your beliefs, involving the supernatural, as well as the Mormon beliefs.” (Ferguson to Hougey, 26 June 1975, Ferguson Collection, University of Utah)

--“Why not say the right things and keep your membership in the great fraternity, enjoying the good things you like and discarding the ones you can’t swallow (and keeping your mouths shut)? Hypocritical? Maybe. But perhaps a realistic way of dealing with a very difficult problem. There is lots left in the Church to enjoy--and thousands of members have done, and are doing, what I suggest you consider doing.”

“Belonging, with my eyes wide open, is actually fun, less expensive than formerly, and no strain at all. I am now very selective in the meetings I attend, the functions I attend, the amounts I contribute etc. etc. and I have a perfectly happy time. I never get up and bear testimony – but I don’t mind listening to others who do. I am much more tolerant of other religions and other thinking and feel fine about things in general. You might give my suggestions a trial run – and if you find you have to burn all the bridges between yourselves and the Church, then go ahead and ask for excommunication. The day will probably come--but it is far off--when the leadership of the Church will change the excommunication rules and delete as ground non-belief in the 2 books mentioned [the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon] and in Joseph Smith as a prophet etc.. . . . but if you wait for that day, you probably will have died. It is a long way off – tithing would drop too much for one thing.” (Ferguson to Mr. and Mrs. Harold W. Lawrence, 9 February 1976, Ferguson Collection, University of Utah)

--“I wonder what really goes on in the minds of Church leadership who know of the data concerning the Book of Abraham, the new data on the First Vision, etc. . . . It would tend to devastate the Church if a top leader were to announce the facts.” (Ferguson to John W. Fitzgerald, 6 March 1976, John Fitzgerald Collection, Special Collections, Milton R. Merrill Library, Utah State University)

--“I believe that Judaism was an improvement on polytheism; Christianity was an improvement on Judaism (to some degree and in some departments only); that Protestantism is an improvement on Catholicism; that Mormonism is an improvement on Protestantism. So I give Joseph Smith credit as an innovator and as a smart fellow.” (Ferguson to James Still, 3 December 1979)

--“Since Oliver Cowdery was born in 1806 and was in Poultney from 1809 to 1825, he was resident in Poultney from 3 years of age until he was 19 years of age--16 years in all. And these years encompassed the publication of View of the Hebrews, in 1822 [1823] and 1825. His three little half sisters, born in Poultney, were all baptized in Ethan Smith’s church. Thus, the family had a close tie with Ethan Smith.” (Ferguson to Ronald Barney, January 10, 1983, Ferguson Collection, University of Utah)

*****


In response to all the above, from non-scientist and premier Mormon apologist, Hugh W. Nibley:

--“We should not be surprised at the lack of ruins in America in general. Actually the scarcity of identifiable remains in the Old World is even more impressive. In view of the nature of their civilization one should not be puzzled if the Nephites had left us no ruins at all. People underestimate the capacity of things to disappear, and do not realize that the ancients almost never built of stone. Many a great civilization which has left a notable mark in history and literature has left behind not a single recognizable trace of itself. We must stop looking for the wrong things.” (Nibley, "An Approach to the Book of Mormon," Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book, 1988, p. 431)

Yeah, that's the ticket: When all else fails, the Mormon Church's fallback position is that the lack of evidence IS evidence.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2014 06:43PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: Third Vision ( )
Date: December 16, 2014 05:41PM

I think the fallback position for true believers would be that the non-LDS scientists are ignorant of the BOM itself, and that the LDS scientists are apostate. Certainly Ferguson could be dismissed by many as apostate, using nothing but the quotes above.

Why apostates can or should be considered discredited is another whole question, with roots deep in LDS church history. I would never make that claim myself.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 16, 2014 06:11PM

To the contrary, Matheny, former chair of the BYU Anthropology Department's Promotion and Tenure Committee , was (years after his critical public remarks about BoM apologetics offered up by faithful Mormons that were based on insufficient evidence) listed as a nominee in "BTU Magzine's" "Professer of This Century" category. This category is described by the magazine as follows:

"The thoughts, memories, and praise shared for professors both well- and little-known convinced us further that each reader has his or her own professor to fill that position. The following article encompass the letters we have received nominating professors who have made a difference in their lives."

Matheny's nomination letter, as it appeared in "BYU Today":

"PROFESSORS OF THE CENTURY, PART II

"Ray T. Matheny, Professor of Anthropology

"Dr. Matheny is an excellent professional and academician. He sacrificed much to balance his time between research and students. His work in establishing the BYU Field School in southern Utah is well documented.

"Dr. Matheny was an effective mentor for students needing guidance in understanding the blend of science and theology required to study archaeology at BYU. He freely shared his wisdom when appropriate and pointed us in the direction of bishops and counselors as required.

"Many of his students have grown to be business and academic leaders. We remain indebted to Dr. Matheny's caring efforts in the sciences and in the art of being human."

(see: "Ray T. Matheny," nominated by Grace L. Duffy, class of 1971, Summerville, South Carolina, in "Professors of The Century, Part II," published in "BYU Magazine," Spring 2000, on BYU's official website, at: http://magazine.byu.edu/?act=view&a=1138 ; also, "Professors of the Century," at: http://magazine.byu.edu/?act=view&a=1143)


I don't think Matheny would have been showcased in such glowing terms in BYU's official magazine if he was considered by BYU's master--the Mormon Church--to have been an "apostate."
_____



P.S.: As far back as 1974, Matheny was debunking, as a modern-day forgery, the so-called "Padilla Gold Plates," apparently concocted to support mythical Book of Mormon archaeology. Matheny's concluding assessment:

"Since Dr. Padilla has provided testimony concerning when, how, and where the plates were found, and has maintained over the past 13 years that this story is true, the plates were investigated from the point of view that they were genuine. Each question that was generated about the technology of the plates during the investigation was treated in such a way as to discover the nature of the tools and techniques of their manufacture.

"Layout and cutting of the plates were remarkably accurate, to say the least. A flat surface, perpendicular reference, and precision measuring devices were required. In addition, the plates were cut by a fine-toothed saw, a type commonly employed by jewelers today.

These instruments were not available to ancient American metallurgists and were available to Old World craftsmen only in relatively recent times. The production of gold alloy sheet with the close tolerances of thickness of the Padilla Plates is most certainly a modern achievement. The production of gold alloy sheet with the close tolerances of thickness of the Padilla Plates is most certainly a modern achievement. The method of engraving is also a modern one, requiring finely-made, hardened steel tools. The making of cylindrical hinges in such perfect symmetry is also astonishing as is the fact that they were soldered by technique known only in recent times.

"The copied art motifs from the wooden lintel located at Chichen Itza and from the gold disk taken from the sacred well of the same archaeological site are clumsy attempts to portray authenticity. It is highly unlikely that these motifs, being individual works of art, should be duplicated in another medium by another culture at another location at another time.

"Further, the copying of the Aztec symbol from the Codex Borbonicus was an act of little ingenuity. It is difficult to imagine a written medium shoeing writing symbols used from the Book of Mormon period, which closed at A.D. 421, according to Pratt's chronology, mixed with symbols used over 1,000 years later by the Aztecs, and yet another of the Classic Maya period.

"The script used for the plates clearly was in part copied from the Mexican missionary tract which supplied a large percentage of the total number of symbols used. Not only was the artist apparently unaware that the bottom three lines of the Anthon transcript were not printed on the Mexican tract, but he also failed to understand the clustering of symbols that occurs in any language in his indiscriminate distribution of the Anthon figures. Additionally we must consider that the Anthon transcript was written with a quill pen or equivalent. This is evident in the fact that the symbols begin with a thin line, then widen on the curvilinear strokes. Thus, when we see the Anthon transcript duplicated on metal or other media with the same curvilinear strokes, we suspect that it is a copy from the pen and ink rendition, without a change in artistic style. Such a rendition in itself constitutes grounds for rejection.

"It is my opinion that the Padilla Plates are not authentic because of any one of the major technological anachronisms given above. But given all of the factors considered, the case against the authenticity of the Padilla Plates should be closed once and for all."

("An Analysis of the Padilla Gold Plates," by Ray T. Matheny, aper presented at 24th Annual Symposium on the Archaeology of the Scriptures," Brigham Young University, October 1974. at: http://www2.bmaf.org/node/279)


Matheny is certainly no Bull Pooper for the BYU Lord. He deserves to be Professor of the Year for that alone.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2014 06:34PM by steve benson.

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Posted by: androidandy ( )
Date: December 16, 2014 06:04PM

BoM musical is more entertaining than imaginary Nephites living in Zarahemla every time:)

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Posted by: Robert Hall the Utah Photo GOD ( )
Date: December 16, 2014 06:09PM

To deny the Book of Mormon and its true historical account of the Nephites and Lamanites and those before them in the book is to limit the power of God in hiding all the tangible evidences of these great civilizations. He did it because if you have to have proof you don't have faith, true faith in things not seen.

Faithless and godless is the same thing and we know this is true as we see the results daily in our great nation - electing a negro as President with his negress wife as first lady when we could have had a faithful, believing Elder of The Church in the White House.

Satan works against the truth and those without faith are his armies yet the true Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints stands tall for The Lord.

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Posted by: Facsimile 3 ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 12:13PM

Nice one RHUPG. Your post sounded so McConkie TBM that I thought you were serious. Great parody!

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: February 04, 2018 11:00AM

HAHA. All praise to the mighty God who is so omnipotent He can destroy all evidence in the blink of an eye of a highly advanced civilization that numbered into the millions. If He hadn't, how could he justify torturing us for eternity for failing to believe the unbelievable?

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Posted by: William (Better than Bill) ( )
Date: December 19, 2023 10:49PM

How unfair, bigoted, and prejudiced a statement about President Obama and wife. I was a convert to Mormonism(OK. LDS Church) while serving in the military, served a mission, graduated from BYU. I left Utah in 2008 and don’t plan to ever go back.I had enough of small minds and small, “impossible” miraculous religion. Dan Vogel get’s it spot on right. Joseph Smith was a “pious deceiver.” Some of Smith’s followers are even worse, pious bigots.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: December 19, 2023 10:52PM

The post you are referring to was written as a parody.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 19, 2023 11:28PM

D'oh!

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Posted by: Eric3 ( )
Date: December 16, 2014 08:04PM

Thomas Murphy put it best: the BoM is a 19th century document.
"There were no Lamanites prior to c. 1828".

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Posted by: Templar ( )
Date: December 18, 2014 10:35AM

Good one!!

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Posted by: CRUD ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 02:57PM

From a cousin of mine:

"All I know is that the Book of Mormon is REAL in my heart!"

When assaulted with that argument, all you can do is walk out the door.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 17, 2014 03:18PM


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Posted by: jefecito ( )
Date: December 18, 2014 09:41AM

Thanks for posting this, Steve. I had remembered reading the David Johnson quote at one time, but couldn't recall who had said it or where I had found it.

While still TBM, my FIL was trying to convince my kids that the Izapa Stela 5 stone depicted Lehi's vision. I wanted to debunk that idea so my kids wouldn't grow up believing stupid mormon folklore. To my great surprise, I found the Johnson quote along the way. Not only was the Izapa Stela 5 idea garbage, but there was ZERO evidence in the archaeology of anything, after all of those years of looking.

I interpreted it as a type of miracle that no trace was left of Nephite/Lamanite civilization and it happened because god wanted us to accept the BoM on faith only. Hahahahahahahahahahaha!

Anyway, that quote was important to my path out, so I'm glad to have the source.

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Posted by: 3X (nli) ( )
Date: December 18, 2014 09:56AM

"When all else fails, the Mormon Church's fallback position is that the lack of evidence IS evidence."


Otherwise known as double-think and double-talk: the last refuge of the desperate MoPologist.

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Posted by: Sheep not a wolf ( )
Date: February 03, 2018 03:35PM

It’s hard to see the truth when so much time and energy has been invested in something. The Book of Mormon is obviously a fraud. The good news is Jesus Christ did die for your sins. He rose again on the 3rd day in fulfillment of the scriptures. He will return again to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end. Throw away the Book of Mormon. Open the New Testament and see that Jesus warned of wolves in sheeps clothing. The core of Jesus is no different. You’re simply leaving behind the nonsense.

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Posted by: Wolf not a sheep ( )
Date: February 03, 2018 04:03PM

Your evidence, please? This thread is all about evidence.

"Because the bible" doesn't count as evidence.

Oh, and preaching isn't allowed here. Thanks for not reading the guidelines.

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Posted by: allegro ( )
Date: February 03, 2018 03:59PM

There is a theory that Lehi landed in the Gulf of Mexico in what is now Crystal River Fla. I guess the premise is the South American theory is not viable anymore because of the mineral issue. There have been mounds discovered in Missouri among other places and Lehi, and all the other people before and after were positioned throughout North America. My TBM friend went to a video symposium about all of this. Is this the new trend in continuing to prove the BOM is real?

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Posted by: alsd ( )
Date: February 04, 2018 02:22AM

allegro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is a theory that Lehi landed in the Gulf of
> Mexico in what is now Crystal River Fla. I guess
> the premise is the South American theory is not
> viable anymore because of the mineral issue. There
> have been mounds discovered in Missouri among
> other places and Lehi, and all the other people
> before and after were positioned throughout North
> America. My TBM friend went to a video symposium
> about all of this. Is this the new trend in
> continuing to prove the BOM is real?

Really?! I lived in the Crystal River, FL area (I lived in the neighboring town of Homosassa Springs, worked in Crystal River, and attended the Lecanto, FL Ward), and never heard that theory once in the five years I was there. I wish I had known about it then.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2018 02:23AM by alsd.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 04, 2018 02:59AM

. . . there are a lot of Florida retirees named Nephi, Sam, Laman, Lemuel, Lehi, Sariah, Alma, Isabel, Abish, Korihor, Shiz, Moroni . . .



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2018 03:05AM by steve benson.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: February 03, 2018 10:58PM

I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be set in the Great Lakes area. I went to the pageant when I was thirteen, and they told me that I was looking at the original Hill Cummorah. It was no more a weak ridge of earth in western New York.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: February 04, 2018 01:20AM


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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: December 20, 2023 09:53AM


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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: February 04, 2018 03:05AM

Thank god that a religion that seems straight from hell is also a fraud without any evidence as well (haha didn't try to rhyme there). But it always put me in a weird spot hating the religion but not being sure if it was actually legit.

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Posted by: Trails end ( )
Date: February 04, 2018 05:27PM

Yup had a few try to inveigle me with tales of other lands...the desperation was palpable ...I said nope...the book seems quite specific ...it was right where those dam disappearing plates were buried...no one lugged two hundred pounds several hundred miles so joe could dig them up...what a silly absurd bunch of crap...yet here we are 200 years later straining at camels...how do you spell a$&@@$$le?? In reformed Egyptian

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