On this recent thread by ‘anybody’…:

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2509587,2509587#msg-2509587

… cl2 replied: “If a man told me I should talk with a soft voice, be sweet, I'd do the opposite.”


The phrase ‘be sweet’ or especially ‘keep sweet’ never fails to remind me of Debbie Palmer, who since the age of 2 knew all too well what those two simple words mean for females trapped in a fundamentalist polygamist sect because she lived it when her parents joined Bountiful, a polygamous Mormon commune in British Columbia, Canada.


‘Bountiful’, the film based on Debbie’s story, is described at ‘bountiful.ca’. Excerpt:

“Leaving Bountiful is the story of a powerful woman’s flight from a society which rewards conformity and punishes individualism. Leaving Bountiful is the story of a woman, raised from a tiny child inside a perverted value system, who still somehow finds the courage - and the clarity - to break free. It is the story of systemic sexual abuse and the subjugation of basic human rights, tolerated by Canadian and American authorities because it is cloaked in the guise of religious freedom.


“Bountiful is the name of a community of approximately 1000 people just outside Creston, British Columbia, established in the late 50’s by the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints. It is a breakaway Mormon sect, founded on the belief that in polygamy lies everlasting life: the more wives a man has in this life, the higher up the celestial ladder he climbs in the next. Bountiful is a kind of branch plant of Colorado City, the major Fundamentalist Mormon community that straddles the Utah-Arizona border.


“Debbie’s parents moved to Bountiful when she was two years old. At age 15, she is given in marriage to 57-year-old Ray Blackmore. Debbie’s proud to marry Ray, even though she will
be his sixth wife. As a young girl raised in polygamy, there can be no greater honour than marrying a leader. But after only two years of marriage, Ray Blackmore dies of leukemia.”

…


“The sect leaders “give” Debbie in marriage three times. When Debbie believes her third husband is sexually interested in her 13-year-old daughter, Memory Dawn, she snaps. She takes an action almost unheard of in Bountiful. She files an official complaint with the RCMP.”

-------

Debbie goes on to leave Bountiful and become an advocate for women and children still trapped in their terrible situations within the commune, which I’ve posted about here in the past.


Too, Debbie Palmer and Dave Perrin co-wrote “Keep Sweet: Children of Polygamy”. It is described by ‘goodreads’ here:

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/3267297

Excerpt:

“Keep Sweet: Children of Polygamy, journals Deb Palmer's experiences growing up as a child in a community where plural marriages and religious dogma were the norm.

“Debbie was married to three different men - the first time at the age of fifteen - during her thirty-three years with the group of Mormon Fundamentalists in the community of Bountiful near Creston, BC. She was subjected to emotional, physical and sexual abuse. It was when she saw this cycle repeating itself in her children's lives that she fled Bountiful.”

-----

I was terribly sad when I read about Debbie’s passing a few years ago at a relatively young age. She had so much more to give and deserved many more years of peace and contentment. I’m so glad that she was able to extricate herself from the world of those horrible brutes who claim their warped theology is the way to worship God, a disgusting excuse they give themselves in order to indulge in an excess of evil at the expense of girls and women and their rights of bodily autonomy and self-determination.


At least Debbie was able to experience life on the outside for some time. She continued to fight for the females of Bountiful at considerable personal cost. She was a kind person who cared so much about others. Amazing when you think of the hellishness of her early years in that dreadful place. I didn’t know her well and regret we didn’t get to spend more time with each other. I miss her. She *was* sweet but not in the same sense as those despicable men demand it. She was short and spoke in soft tones so they must have been surprised when this quiet woman turned out to have a spine of steel in her determination to fight for the rights of the females of Bountiful. Sadly, to date, the law continues to fail them. But one can always hope for change. And better yet, fight for it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2024 04:02PM by Nightingale.

I always wondered why the COJCOLDS did not take greater responsibility for modern Mormon polygamy. The church authorities thought that disavowing and forbidding it was sufficient. It has never been sufficient. The fallout from polygamy, started by church founder Joseph Smith, Jr., and promulgated by Brigham Young and all of his cohort, persists today.

Exactly, summer.

Here's an article - old - from 2008 but it gives a decent snapshot of what all the competing issues are. (Lots of ads but just keep scrolling down and eventually all will be revealed).

There don't seem to be any more reasonable solutions coming about all these years later, most unfortunately. The poor kids. And women. And everybody. All caught up in a twisted world, a maze that all too many can't find their way out of.

I note the article often includes the word 'Mormon' in the write-up. That's good as it keeps some of the focus where it should be. But also discouraging, as not much has changed in all the years to improve the situation for anyone. You'd think that at least mainstream Mormon leaders would want to more clearly differentiate from the archaic polygamous sects. You'd also think that the Canadian/B.C. govts would care more about ensuring the children are protected.

https://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/b-c-mormon-sect-keeps-the-world-at-bay

I was thinking just today (in another context,) that I was raised with the notion that if you make the mess, you clean it up. The COJCOLDS made the mess, they should work to clean it up.

A most excellent point, summer.

I think they follow the fart rule:

If you don't act like you smell it, you weren't the one who farted.

Corollary:

He who smelt it dealt it.

Or, in the words of Steve Urkel, "Did I do that?"

...is that many people who find themselves in this situation actually support those who torment them. It's very much like some of the things I've read about where hostages learn to identify with the behaviors and goals of their kidnappers (anybody remember Patty Hearst?) I guess some people prefer the devil they know than the devil they don't...

blindguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...is that many people who find themselves in this
> situation actually support those who torment them.
> It's very much like some of the things I've read
> about where hostages learn to identify with the
> behaviors and goals of their kidnappers (anybody
> remember Patty Hearst?) I guess some people prefer
> the devil they know than the devil they don't...

There is plenty about it that is tragic, blindguy, isn't there. I know what you mean about people going along with it when outsiders would think they'd rebel. But so much is so deeply ingrained from birth and difficult to overcome in many cases so I think that explains at least one reason why so many seem to just accept their lot and never try to leave for a different, more independent life.

My father who was old-school English instilled in at least the first two of his five kids (I was the second) the highly-prized in some quarters principle of unquestioning obedience (or he definitely tried hard to do so). Certainly as young kids my sister and I were exceptionally obedient. I think that is part of the reason why as a mid teen when I met the JWs I readily fell in with one of their top 10 main principles of unquestioning obedience. (Another of their top 10 is secrecy but that's another story). The above analysis about obedience doesn't always hold because my older sister has always been a complete rebel, in my opinion. Of course, she completely disagrees. Strangely, as sibs do, we argue over which one of us was more or less this or that. She thinks she was docile and I was a rebel. You have to laugh because I think it was definitely the other way around.

I think though that that expectation of obedience was so familiar to me that it didn't seem off when the JWs preached it as a favourite principle and that helped them entice me in. Fortunately for me, mostly due to having had experience outside their cloistered group I believe, I did at least have something to compare and contrast them to. Even though I didn't question it soon enough but instead formally joined too precipitously, because hey, Armageddon was right around the corner so no time to lose - the same story they push today, years later, and yet the world still turns. Fortunately though I did get out and never regretted that backtrack for a single second.

My point is that I had a point of reference outside the closed group, both from my upbringing in a (relatively) normal family (!) and JWs born into the group don't have that.

With the fundamentalist Mormons, most unfortunately, they are literally physically isolated altogether on a property separate from the rest of the population of their province, state, country and they go to the cult's school as well. No chance for them to hear or read or see much, if anything, about the outside world.

I am still amazed every time a member gets out of the fundamentalist group. It demonstrates a great deal of courage and resolve and grit and trust. Trust, I imagine, that the outside world may not be as bad as their dishonest self-serving leaders portray it to be.

I think they support the leaders because it's demanded of them and perhaps because at least in part and/or for a good period of time as they grow and hopefully learn, they believe it. Also, because as long as they are in isolation and under observation they have little to no choice.

I think about the government authorities here in British Columbia who know, at least in part, what is going on in Bountiful and other polygamous Mormon communes. Not only do they not "rescue" the kids, they actually support the community and seem to turn a blind eye to a lot of questionable practices. They also give money (lots of it) to the community for their school. I have no clue if they check to see what the curriculum is or whether the standard Canadian curriculum is being followed (I'm going to guess it is not). Still, they get millions of dollars every year to run their schools.

Also, even though at least the government took Winston Blackmore and some of the other leaders to court for various alleged offences, he was acquitted. The smug smile on their faces as they walked away from justice would make your stomach turn.

When I think of the courage and guts and resolve and initiative I've seen, heard, read about some of the women there, including Debbie, who are trying to change things for the better for the other women and the children in the community it's inspiring and heartbreaking all at once. It's most unfortunate that there doesn't seem to be a mechanism for a wholesale "rescue" of anyone who may want to leave (they're in an isolated spot and the women, obviously, have no funds of their own). Somehow the government continues to allow the status quo to continue. If there wasn't the complicating factor of a religion being involved I wonder if they could act more swiftly and decisively.

It seemed like such an amazing turn of events when Blackmore and Oler, another leader, were charged with some criminal offences but, although convicted, they were allowed to return home (details below).

It's so too bad that so many of the girls and women never get to see the outside of their commune or have much of a chance to choose their own life's path for themselves.


Here's an article about the court case brought against Blackmore and Oler, two of the leaders. (Blackmore was Debbie's stepson, in the commune's convoluted relationship pattern due to polygamy and arranged marriage).


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/polygamy-bc-blackmore-oler-bountiful-sentencing-1.4722332

Excerpts:

“A B.C. Supreme Court judge has sentenced Winston Blackmore to six months of house arrest and James Oler to three months of house arrest for practising polygamy.

“Justice Sherry Anne Donegan handed down the sentence in Cranbrook Tuesday morning.

“Blackmore will be under house arrest in his Bountiful area home, with allowances to go to work and attend to medical emergencies, while Oler will be able to serve his time where he works and lives in Alberta.

“Both sentences will be followed by 12 months probation.

“Blackmore has also been ordered to perform 150 hours of community work service, while Oler must do 75 hours.

“As she handed down her decision, the judge noted both men were hard working, respected members of their communities with no prior convictions.

“These convictions are a first for polygamy in Canada in more than a century.

“Special prosecutor Peter Wilson recommended three to six months in jail for Blackmore, 60, and one to three months for James Oler, 53.

“The two former religious leaders were convicted last July of practising plural or "celestial" marriage in the community of Bountiful, B.C.

“Oler did not have legal representation in court, but a lawyer who acted as a so-called friend of the court to ensure a fair trial said Oler is hard working and imprisonment may not be necessary to deter and denounce polygamy.

“There are only two other convictions for polygamy in Canadian history, but because those cases took place in 1899 and 1906, Wilson told the judge they didn't set a precedent in determining sentences for the men.”

-----

Being taken to court for "practicing polygamy" and getting a slap on the wrist is highly discouraging. For one, it ignores the real and harmful effects of their way of life and what is essentially bondage of the females.

Re the "friend of the court" lawyer who said that Oler is hardworking, what a joke. A person can be a total criminal and be hardworking but does that absolve them of their guilt for breaking the law?

It certainly seems that the court didn't consider polygamy to be much of a transgression. Obviously, the judge had no clue about the reality of the lives of the females there or the non-leader males even.

It also seems that in spite of all the harms of polygamy, including at least statutory rape (Debbie was only 15 when she was "married" to a much older man) the court didn't seem to grasp that aspect of it.

Only two convictions for polygamy in Canadian history and the last one being in 1906? Oh well, that's all right then. NOT!!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2024 10:05PM by Nightingale.

(I thought this was another thread about cannibalism. )

I sometimes worry about what impact our lives have had on our kids and then I read something like this. All the family members married to each other.

How many more Debbies are there out there? This is a horror story.

Thanks for sharing her story. I've read quite a few books about polygamist women. It is one of those things that you can't look once and not go back and look some more.