A year or two ago I was talking to a 'foreign national' as he was about to leave for his country.

He said:

"It seems like when a church becomes big, it becomes all about the money."

I wonder where he could get a opinion like that?

It seems Russell M. Nelson cherry picks Mormon scriptures while leaving out inconvenient parts. To be fair, the current "Come Follow Me" manual does quote this correctly:

"For the time speedily shall come that ALL CHURCHES WHICH ARE BUILT UP TO GET GAIN, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become POPULAR IN THE EYES OF THE WORLD, and those who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity; yea, in fine, all those who belong to the kingdom of the devil are they who need fear, and tremble, and quake; they are those who must be brought low in the dust; they are those who must be consumed as stubble; and this is according to the words of the prophet." (1 Nephi 22:23)

The Mormon church started to "get gain" during Joseph Smith's presidency, but that "gain-getting" is painfully apparent now with the Ensign Peak scandal.

The following is from Nelson’s famous “Hear Him” talk:

“"The Book of Mormon chronicles the classic rise and fall of two major civilizations. Their history demonstrates how easy it is for a majority of the people to forget God, reject warnings of the Lord’s prophets, and seek power, popularity, and pleasures of the flesh.(4) Repeatedly, past prophets have declared “great and marvelous things unto the people, which they did not believe.”"

The "get gain" part is mysteriously missing from talk.

Footnote number “4” refers to 1 Nephi 22:23 (quoted above in full).

Nelson is very selective in which things he deems important to call out. He hits on power, popularity and pleasure, but somehow omits getting gain. I wonder why? He even goes so far as to equate this condemnation to the “majority of the people”, and not the actual verse that specially calls out the corruption of “all churches” that follow such behavior. This, IMO, is intellectual dishonestly.

Note also how Nelson says:
"how easy it is for a majority of the people to forget God, reject warnings of the Lord’s prophets, and seek power, popularity, and pleasures of the flesh."

This phrasing makes no mention of church leadership doing these things and instead blames problems on the general members.

Right. There are plenty of religious people and religious leaders who pursue power, popularity, and the pleasures of the flesh. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are two notable examples.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Right. There are plenty of religious people and
> religious leaders who pursue power, popularity,
> and the pleasures of the flesh. Joseph Smith and
> Brigham Young are two notable examples.

Anton LaVey and David Miscavige are two more recent examples.

Nice catch. What an inconvenient phrase is " gain getting."


Nelson is basically saying if you don't do as he says-- him being the prophet and all-- then you aren't going to the CK. Maybe not even the next kingdom down but even further.

In LDS Mormondom thinking for yourself is the gravest sin of all.

Nelson has a very sick ego. If he and Oaks and Bednar aren't narcissists, I don't know what is. Being that makes it possible to ignore the fact that the great stone is not rolling forth, but instead, the Mormon church is slip sliding down the mountain during his command. Must be hard having to face the church's decline when what you want, what you really really want, to do, is shout from the temple tops that you are the CEO of one of the most successful private businesses EVER!

In this country first you gotta make the money. Then when you get the money you get the power. Then when you get the power you get the woman.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o7NyNnwrm70

1 Nephi 22:23
this is exactly what a narcissist would say..talk against exactly what he is doing. Joseph Smith was mentally sick, and so were all the so called fraud prophets after him.

I can't really think of a more obvious mission of religion in general. It's how they spread, compete and survive.

Thinking about them in almost biological terms. . .

Yeah, like viruses.

That was the image that came to mind: viruses in a Petri dish.

Slightly OT, but IMO "For the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up...." belies yet again the 19th Century origin of the BoM: Nephi had only ever known Jewish tradition (there may have been varied schools of thought among scholars in Jerusalem, but not different denominations), so a prophecy about "all churches" doesn't make sense, even with the disclaimer "...time shall speedily come..." that apologists would cite, but....you know....Methodists, Catholics, Adventists, Presbyterians, how in the hell is a 600 B.C. Jewish prophet going to be so specific about 19th Century Christian denominations?

C'mon, man.

Mormons are people who don't "follow the money." I was taught that the bishop gives the money to the Lord. When I grew up, I saw all the great and spacious buildings, and I knew. Now I know about the hundred billion in stocks, and the two percent of Florida real estate. Nelson knows. The leaders know. Followers don't follow the money.

The Book of Mormon is your first test when you join the church. The aim isn't to gain a testimony but to see how much you can spot the contradictions between it and the teachings of the modern LDS church.

Waiwai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Book of Mormon is your first test when you
> join the church. The aim isn't to gain a testimony
> but to see how much you can spot the
> contradictions between it and the teachings of the
> modern LDS church.

The Book of Mormon supports the idea of the Trinity, and mentions Hell a number of times. In fact Alma even claims to visit Hell.

Waiwai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Book of Mormon is your first test when you
> join the church. The aim isn't to gain a testimony
> but to see how much you can spot the
> contradictions between it and the teachings of the
> modern LDS church.

See my summary of those differences:

http://packham.n4m.org/bomvslds.htm

TSCC will go the same way as the RLDS and abandon the BoM. It is also trying to make itself Protestant but without any success. (Not very Protestant to kiss the Pope's ring.)

Did someone kiss the Pope's ring? Only Catholics would be expected to do that in a private audience.

Someone was saying above that the BoM has been turned into an idol. Maybe. It's one that people barely look at now. It condemns modern Mormonism on many scores.