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Posted by: Strength in the Loins ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 04:56AM

For a long time, I have believed that the church's finances were rock solid. I mean, hell, just in the past few years they have poured billions into land acquisitions and real estate development. I had figured that the cult's for-profit business ventures would keep it solvent forever - even if their tithing receipts plummeted.

But what if it was all a house of cards? What if the church was much more indebted than anyone realized?

My question is this...what would be the cracks that start to show in the dam?

1.) has already happened - the elimination of paid positions in favor of forced volunteering (i.e. every member a janitor). Many senior missionary jobs to "serve" in the church actually benefit their for-profit enterprises. For instance, my aunt recently completed a senior mission in Hawaii and spent a great deal of her time working at the Polynesian Cultural Center.

2.) also happening - the cult sells off welfare farms and recreational properties that it has owned for decades. Youth conferences, girl's camp, and scouting activities all happen within 20 miles of home.

3.) Ever more desperate attempts are made at shaking down the members for more money. Although they have to be careful here. Attempts at getting more donations could easily backfire and have the opposite effect.

4.) Sharp increases (>100%) in tuition rates at all church schools. Elimination of expensive programs (i.e. the Jerusalem center) and a forced downward trend in total enrollment.

5.) The cost of missions will go up while the cult greatly scales back operations in high-cost, low-yield areas of the world.

6.) Multi-purposing temples. This would be a much later sign of decay.


Other other thoughts on what to look out for?

My dream scenario would be that the cult is way overextended on its financial commitments and is not self-financed and self-sustaining like we've always been told. I would love to see the cult implode like Jim Baaker's empire did back in the 1980's.

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Posted by: unbelievable2 ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 06:46AM

Yes, you are correct. It it a house of cards and the cracks are showing. When Hinckley ordered all local funds to be sent to SLC is one sign. Another sign is that members still are asked to dig deeper into their pockets AFTER they donate funds which gets sent to SLC so that they can fund the needs of poor members in their wards and branches for rent, utilities, etc. Extortion attempts are up against the church at least in Brooklyn where some immigrants who only come to church for $, food and free handouts are told the church, the members don't have the money. Many bullying episodes have arisen to get revenge. The morg even closed down the East New York branch in Brooklyn and spilt the all black immigrant congregation who were extorting money at the level of an art form. We'll you can just imagine the chaos, bullying and revenge that erupted from that, the racist and bigot accusations against the white church. Stupid, frightened, local leaders, which are not exercising any leadership because they lack a back bone, integrity and decency sit on fences while those getting revenge ABUSE innocent members, who if they are smart have no choice but to flee the cult. It's like the evil coming out of ISIS. The morg cannot sustain taking care of welfare obligations for its own members. I served in the Bishop's Storehouse for a couple of years in Manhattan right after 2008, when the economy collapsed. Miraculously everyone in need from that point of view was taken care of. But there were huge limits on other forms of cash assistance for rent, etc. A lot of members had no choice but to move. So, yes the cracks are showing up.

Also remember that after 2008, the morg's own insurance company took a major hit financially and lost hundreds of millions of dollars. The church bailed it out. This is a huge sign the Q15 are not prophets, seers and revelatorsIke they boldly proclaim every time they open their mouths. If they were, they would have seen 2008 coming a mile in the distance and brace themselves.

Also, the SLC Olympics got a $2 billion dollar bailout from the morg due to a scandal. Mitt Romney took all the credit for that, but the funds came from the morg. That's a big pinch in their pocket.

Let's face reality here. The world is full of corruption, violence and wickedness. There is no real leadership in countries. Every family and organization will be affected. The morg is top heavy. They have a ton of expenses in running their real estate empire. It is not sustainable for the above reasons in addition to all the members leaving in droves. More cracks are in the morg's future.

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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 07:47AM

Once my mom said that people were only coming to the church to get financial help.
I said, "what's wrong with that?"
She said, "Why should the church help out people who aren't members?"
I replied, "Because that's what Jesus would do!"

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Posted by: Templar ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 11:00AM

When has the church ever shown the least concern for what Jesus would have done?

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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 08:18PM


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Posted by: ozpoof ( )
Date: November 27, 2015 03:08AM

They don't help members, at least not in Australia.

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Posted by: Justice ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 07:34AM

I assert, and also know by information & belief that Gordon Hinckley got the Morg mixed up in this, and the TSCC has to pay for financial sins in the past

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/credit-suisse-pleads-guilty-conspiracy-aid-and-assist-us-taxpayers-filing-false-returns

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Posted by: jiminycricket ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 11:50PM

Holy Crap!

From the article linked:

"As part of the plea agreement, Credit Suisse acknowledged that, for decades prior to and through 2009, it operated an illegal cross-border banking business that knowingly and willfully aided and assisted thousands of U.S. clients in opening and maintaining undeclared accounts and concealing their offshore assets and income from the IRS."

When I, Jiminycricket, read those two words, "Credit Suisse," I remembered something.

Guess who the Mission President was in San Jose, California who implemented Q12 member, Ballard's, pilot program to the Hastening?

That would be Lincoln Watkins, worth $250 million, retired director of "Credit Suisse."

(See his bio: http://www.ldschurchnewsarchive.com/articles/print/60356/New-mission-presidents.html )



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2015 12:45AM by jiminycricket.

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Posted by: Villager ( )
Date: November 25, 2015 02:44AM

I thought the names of those "non-taxpayers" with Swiss accounts were going to be made public.

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Posted by: unbelievable 2 ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 08:04AM

The other sign is how missionary work is being revamped to include more community service. After Superstorm Sandy the missions and members throughout NYC worked extensively to help the affected areas on the coastal communities for several months. Members got to leave church after the sacrament was passed to go help out. It was reported that a branch of the church opened up in Rockaway, Queens as a result of all the community service given to rebuild that area.

Also, missionaries are teaching English as a Second Language in church buildings in order to attract immigrants in. By befriending them under the guise of language teaching, they are planting seeds for baptism. 14 young Koreans got baptized out in Flushing, Queens a year ago as a result of ESL classes taught by the missionaries.

Missionaries also spend a lot of time using the internet to answer questions and engage people that way. They spent hours in the library in the computer center instead of tracting. While these changes may not have a direct impact on the morg's pocket, I do believe it is a sign of changes the morg is dealing with.

One thing I find truly disturbing and telling is the hateful rhetoric coming from Jeffrey Holland over the pulpit when ever he opens his mouth. While I no longer watch General Conference, but read about it on this site, he sounds furious that members are leaving the church and are spreading the word about the cult and its schemes and religious scams. He sounds desperate that loyal, committed, hard working members and their families are no longer holding up the house of cards the way they were conditioned to for decades. The cat is out of the bag. The language used by the Q15 at GC, etc., especially the rhetoric and bargaining coming from Dieter F. Uchtdorf are signs that desperation is a common fear in the Q15. The rallying cry of "Don't leave us now" is a sign that the Titanic hit the iceberg.

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Posted by: Phazer ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 09:24AM

Never liked the janitorial firings and having to be responsible for cleaning the building. I'm glad I don't do that anymore.

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Posted by: Villager ( )
Date: November 25, 2015 02:55AM

As I recall there were many long term loyal employees of ZCMI that were screwed over by the church when LDS, Inc. sold/closed ZCMI.

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Posted by: Trails end ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 09:28AM

My ex bish buddy of many years has told me a couple times how high overhead is for the tscc...he diligently collected tithes a nd dutifully deposited them like life itself depended on it...even being the generous guy he mostly is he guarded church money rather than extend it to those in need in the ward saying it made people weak to get help...a couple bad investments...huge overhead maintaining programs and buildings...the mighty can fall..even five to eight billion free money coming in might not be enough to keep the titanic afloat...my buddy maintains the fifteen are such smart guys...arrogance and pride go before the fall...those 24000 first class flights add up by golly..id imagine they dont stay at motel six or use coupons at mcds like mr. Buffet would...oh Id say the mighty could fall...watch for the big dust cloud

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Posted by: Mitch McDeere ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 09:31AM

The members of the Q15 will only be issued with one replacement ivory backscratcher per year instead of per quarter.

(They will be pissed as their idol ad model of behavior, Mr. Burns on "The Simpsons" gets as many as he wants...) :-)

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Posted by: Myron Donnerbalken ( )
Date: November 25, 2015 07:11AM

How many times per year do the Big 15 get their eyes re-balled and the brains flushed with vinegar? I think they all need to see Smithers for an appointment.

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Posted by: scaredhusband ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 09:47AM

I see most your points as cutting costs and waste. Making it leaner and improving the net income.

The real sign will be the shrinking budgets. More specifically the budgets of RS, EQ, Primary, YW & YM, which I believe has been happening.

Not really sure what you meant by multi-purposing temples. They make them too small now to be of any use for anything else. The provo tabernacle/temple would be a good example for this.

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Posted by: East Coast Exmo ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 10:39AM

The budgets got chopped to almost nothing in the 1980s. What would be left to cut back?

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Posted by: exldsdudeinslc ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 10:53AM

One could also say those are signs of greed, cost cutting, and general business practices. You know, to please the shareholders.

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Posted by: seekyr ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 10:54AM

Or could it be that they are just obsessive-compulsive about maintaining a high level of funds in their coffers - like there's NEVER QUITE ENOUGH to feel safe?

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Posted by: Templar ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 11:08AM

One place it has really shown up is the fact that TSCC no longer reports financial results as they once did.

Knowing how braggadocio the unholy fifteen are, I'm sure positive results would have been "shouted from the rooftops"!

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 08:33PM

There's one hell of a lot of wealth in the real estate arm. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the owners starved the church arm of the Morg to fatten the landholders. "Let them eat urinal cake."

When I was a boy I was destitute. My father wasn't poor, but I was. I know how these things work.

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Posted by: Gheco ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 09:00PM

How about we add in:

The shutdown/selling of Beneficial Life
The every member a janitor program extending to temples also
The drastic measure of changing missionary age
The stopping and privatization of LDS pensions

Some things we can assume:

It is expensive to run an empire. LDS meetinghouses and temples require utlities, maintenence, upkeep, and insurance. Incoming revenues have undoubtedly fallen, probably drastically.

On the business side, we know nothing other than utah is the mortgage, security, and insurance fraud capital.

We know nothing of any pertnership deals, nor how any business deals were or are financed. There is a rumor, which has never been officailly confirmed that LDS inc does not leverage or borrow to pay for anything. This is suspicious, as all large companies require credit. My guess is that the real estate empire is highly leveraged.

We do not know who is in charge, nor who the shareholders of the corporation are. We do know that there is a signature machine which would be the holy grail to any conman.

We do not know who awards contracts, nor any deals in contracts. This is probably where the big money is spent.

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Posted by: canadianfriend ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 10:03PM

They insist on financial secrecy for a reason. Cojcolds is all about the show. Look at our temples. Aren't you impressed? Aren't we wonderful?

The facade is expensive to maintain. Their greatest fear is crashing financially, because then the show will be over. The final curtain will be drawn.

Like any at-risk corporation they will be forced to downsize. Combining wards, selling property and buildings, laying off staff, cutting costs.

They had dreams of becoming a global empire, but now they are focused on survival.

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Posted by: Void K. Packer ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 10:15PM

There used to be a poster here named erictheex that thought the church was in big financial trouble. To quote:

"As a business consultant, I can spot a bleeder a mile away. This church is bleeding money* like a mofo."

Me? I dunno. They're still around and retrenching their nastier sides. You can read what this guy thought constituted clues to the cult's distress here:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1193598,1193949#msg-1193949

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Posted by: just doesn't ( )
Date: November 24, 2015 10:17PM

The church doesn't go into debt for church operations (though I don't know whether the policy stands for the business ventures too). This determined after the near failure of the 1970's (?).

D. Michael Quinn's lasted book on finances to 2010 is now on amazon for pre-order.

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Posted by: unbelievable2 ( )
Date: November 25, 2015 06:49AM

The church not only demands members to do janitorial services in their churches, but also the temples. Cleaning the temple by members happens weekly and has been going on for many years at least here in NYC. Each ward or branch gets assigned a different week. Since the temple district covers NYC, most of lower New York State, NJ and eastern parts of CT, the assignment to clean the temple comes once a year.

Another church policy is that traveling General Authorities stay in the homes of local leaders like the Stake Presidency. They never stay in hotels. This policy has been in place for decades. The lie holding this policy in place is that the GA wants to experience the Spirit in the home of the leader. In reality, the church is exploiting members right and left and have gotten away with it forever. These are more signs of financial strain and belt tightening.

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Posted by: Myron Donnerbalken ( )
Date: November 25, 2015 07:15AM

As for staying in the homes of members, it's just a procedure to avoid the embarrassment that comes when the leaders have hookers to their rooms.

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Posted by: Templar ( )
Date: November 25, 2015 02:40PM

If TSCC had to pay bishops and stake presidents salaries like almost every other "religion", they wouldn't have the money to piss away on opulent malls, oversized temple square conference centers and Hinckley's temple building binge.

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Posted by: zero ( )
Date: November 27, 2015 07:41AM

Where the heck did this thread come from? I thought the conventional wisdom was that the church is filthy rich?

I think dreams that the church is suffing financial difficulty are just ex-Mormon fantasies. (Good fantasies, but nevertheless just fantasies)

Having members clean the wards is just another way to get members to "sacrifice" for the church and isn't, in my opinion, a sign of financial difficulty.

The church has billions and except for providing buildings it doesn't really pay for the day-to-day worship services for the average member. They have a lot of financial cushion from the 10% that they suck out of TBM's.

I sometimes go to a Methodist church which has a professional minister and a nice building and they don't require anywhere near the donations that the Mormon church requires. After expenses I bet the church still has a lot of excess thithing revenue still coming in.

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Posted by: Strength in the Loins ( )
Date: November 27, 2015 08:40AM

Perhaps you are right. But very large, wealthy entities have a way keeping up appearances right up until the bottom falls out. Think of Enron.

The great unknown here is just how many people have their hands in the cookie jar here. How bad is the corruption in the COB? It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility that the cult is not nearly as financially sound as it makes itself out to be.

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Posted by: caedmon ( )
Date: November 27, 2015 10:44AM

Yes, on paper TSSC is incredibly wealthy. But there is a difference between hard assets like property and having the cash flow to pay daily expenses.

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Posted by: Trails end ( )
Date: November 27, 2015 10:10AM

Its only been seven years since our last wake up call...BANK BAILOUTS...think about that for a moment...banking if done properly can be one of the most conservative guaranteed money makers in existence...yet exposure to derivatives and fraudulent mortgages torpedoed several and nearly sunk the rest..couple bad investments...huge outlay for development that suddenly tanks and youve got some big ass whining going on...banks worth billions more than the church were insolvent almost over night...yeah the fossils are quite conservative but over head is real...they just had leaked one of the dumbest cockeyed policies possible yet we give them so much credit for brains...hmmm...i wonder...if theyll lie about membership numbers...lying about finances would be expected

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Posted by: Beanhead ( )
Date: November 27, 2015 08:52PM

The building I work in (which is rented by two private companies) is owned by "Property Reserve Inc., the LDS Church's real-estate arm".

I'm in North Carolina. There's very little mormon presence in my area, yet somehow LDS has a hold on some good properties.

McDonald's biggest $ asset is its property portfolio. Probably the same for LDS inc.

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