1834-35 — Oliver Cowdery, with Joseph Smith’s help, published the first history of Mormonism in the LDS periodical Messenger and Advocate, Kirtland, Ohio, Dec. 1834, vol.1, no.3.

...Oliver Cowdery continues the narrative in the next issue, on page 78-79: “You will recollect that I mentioned the time of a religious excitement, in Palmyra and vicinity to have been in the 15th year of our brother J. Smith Jr.’s age — that was an error in the type — it should have been in the 17th. — You will please remember this correction, as it will be necessary for the full understanding of what will follow in time. This would bring the date down to the year 1823. “I do not deem it necessary to write further on the subject of this excitement. … “And it is only necessary for me to say, that while this excitement continued, he continued to call upon the Lord in secret for a full manifestation of divine approbation, and for, to him, the all important information, IF A SUPREME BEING DID EXIST, to have an assurance that he was accepted of him.

“… On the evening of the 21st of September, 1823, previous to retiring to rest, our brother’s mind was unusually wrought up on the subject which had so long agitated his mind … all he desired was to be prepared in heart to commune with some kind of messenger who could communicate to him the desired information of his acceptance with God. “…

http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/m&a-v1-p78.html
bottom of left column


For the full text click here:
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ma/v1n05.htm

Scroll to bottom of 77:
LETTER IV.

To W. W. Phelps, Esq.

DEAR BROTHER:

In my last, published in the 3d No. of the Advocate I apologized for the brief manner in which I should be obliged to give, in many instances, the history of this church. Since then yours of Cristmas [Christmas] has been received. It was not my

(page 77)


Our question should be this- IF Joseph had seen God and Jesus in 1820, why would he forget it by 1823?

Apologist answer: Oliver Cowdrey got his dates wrong...

I don't read it the way you do. To me it says that Joseph prayed to have an assurance that he was accepted by the supreme being, provided that this being existed. That is a bit different. The point seems to be the assurance.

And "assurance" is a Methodist term, if I'm not mistaken.

http://www.centerplace.org/history/ma/v1n03.htm

The account of page 77 is a continuation from page 42:

You will recollect that I informed you, in my letter published in the first No. of the Messenger and Advocate, that this history would necessarily embrace the life and character of our esteemed friend and brother, J. Smith JR. one of the presidents of this church, and for information on that part of the subject, I refer you to his communication of the same, published in this paper. I shall, therefore, pass over that, till I come to the 15th year of his life.

It is necessary to premise this account by relating the situation of the public mind relative to religion, at this time: One Mr. Lane, a presiding Elder of the Methodist church, visited Palmyra, and vicinity.

...In this general strife for followers, his mother, one sister, and two of his natural brothers, were persuaded to unite with the Presbyterians. This gave opportunity for further reflection; and as will be seen in the sequel, laid a foundation, or was one means of laying a foundation for the attestation of the truths, or professions of truth, contained in that record called the word of God.

After strong solicitations to unite with one of those different societies, and seeing the apparent proselyting [proselytizing] disposition manifested with equal warmth from each, his mind was led to more seriously contemplate the importance of a move of this kind. To profess godliness without its benign influence upon the heart, was thing so foreign from his feelings, that his spirit was not at rest day nor night.

In this situation where could he go? If he went to one he was told they were right, and all others were wrong-If to another, the same was heard from those: All professed to be the true church;

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One would think that IF Heavenly Father had said just two or three years prior not to join any,"for they are all wrong" and that "he forbade me to join any of them", that perhaps he would have had sufficient knowledge concerning the issue...

Curously, the official account shows that in 1820 he told his mother that he was well enough and that he had learned that Presbyterianism is not true, yet she had not joined with them until about three years later.

I have just read Marquardt and Walters book Inventing Mormonism, SLC 1994, with the interesting discussion in chapters 1 and 2, where they suggest that the official datings must be wrong and the first vision was actually about 1824.

Yep- the Revival was in 1824 according to Rev. Lane.
If the vision was really in 1824 then it leaves no room for all of the events recorded in the Official version, or even others.

About the only thing that is consistent is that Moroni visits in 1823. It is interesting to note also, that even by 1831 everyone knew about Moroni (sometimes Nephi) and the Plates, but nobody including friend, foe, family or church leader knew about a vision of God and/or Jesus Christ and not only that, but Joseph was welcomed into the Methodist church at the same time that the official account claims that he was being persecuted and hated by all the ministers for telling the story.

There is no recorded account in any newspaper or family letter from 1820 onward of Joseph being persecuted for telling about the vision in the Grove.

You have to have a great memory to be able to lie consistently and not get found out.

It would appear Joseph had a brilliant imagination and massive charisma, but little itty bitty memory...

So... Joseph sees God the father and his son Jesus Christ in the flesh, they forgive him there and then of his sins ... and 3 years later he needs some form of "full manifestation of divine approbation" to 1. determine if a supreme BEING(not beings) exists and 2. learn if he was accepted of that supreme being.
Both of his reasons in 1823 would have been resolved in the 1820 account. Sometimes... this shit is way to obvious that someone is lying. Thanks for the new info JoD, I have never seen this before. Is anyone aware of an apologetic response? The best I can see given was ipseego's response, but even that is left wanting because he apparently had not determined that a supreme being existed by 1823, a purported 3 years after seeing the father and the son in flesh and bone.

I think I know why he forgot about the very special visit. Evidently the mormon dynastic duo in white are incredibly boring, and even as a glorified beings they are really no one of consequence.

As further evidence I point to the current "especial witnesses" we are so blessed to gather counsel from. What do they have as a witness, or special message? Nothing, just widow stories to distract us.

Mormon's are boring because they are trying to be like the most boring being in the universe. Even His prophets, ... completely forgot He was there.

Professor Quinn feels that Joseph Smith may have been involved in "spirit conjurations" when he received the visitation concerning the gold plates which he used to translate the Book of Mormon:

Smith began praying late Sunday night on 21 September 1823. According to astrological guides, Sunday night was the only night of the week ruled by Jupiter... Jupiter, Smith's ruling planet, was the most prominent astrological symbol on the Smith family's golden lamen for summoning a good spirit....

Oliver Cowdery wrote that Smith began praying earnestly that Sunday night about "eleven or twelve" in order "to commune with some kind of messenger" (1835, 1:79). Scot's frequently cited 1665 instructions for conjuration (the edition upon which the Smith family's "Jehovah, Jehovah, Jehovah" parchment was based) specified that spirit conjurations should begin "at 11 a clock at night," and in describing a particular conjuration "at 11 a clock at night; not joyning to himself any companion, because this particular action will admit of none... providing beforehand the two Seals of the Earth, drawn exactly upon parchment... but if he desires it, they will engage to bring him the most pretious [sic] of their Jewels and Riches in twenty four hours; discovering unto him the way of finding hidden treasures and the richest mines"... The Smith's "Holiness to the Lord" parchment has those two seals...

Smith's prayer "to commune with some kind of messenger" on 21 September 1823 occurred once the moon had reached its maximum fullness the previous day and just before the autumnal equinox. The 1665 edition of Scot's works... specified, "And in the composition of any Circle for Magical feats, the fittest time is the brightest Moon-light"... the hour and day in which Smith prayed "to commune with some kind of messenger" was pinpointed in magic books as being ideal for the invocation of spirits. Also, the angel of that hour, Raphael, figured prominently at the center of the Smith family's most significant lamen... which was constructed to aid in a treasure quest... Young Joseph walked alone to that hill on 22 September 1823, when the moon was in its second day in Aries, which astrology specified was a day "good to find treasures hid"...

Significantly, Oliver Cowdery's account, the first published history of early Mormonism, sketched a folk magic context for the events of 22 September 1823 on the hill: "he had heard of the power of enchantment, and a thousand like stories, which held the hidden treasures of the earth"... Cowdery's report that Smith was prevented from obtaining the gold treasure by a thrice-repeated "shock [that] was produced upon his system" echoed treasure folklore of the 1820s that treasure-seekers could be "instant[an]eously struck, without attaining their object, as with an electric shock"...

All official and unofficial,... sources agree that Smith was not able to obtain the gold plates on 22 September 1823. Instead, he returned to the hill on exactly the same day each year until 1827. None of these accounts explains why the visits had to occur each year on exactly the same day. Magic provides a possible explanation: "Should nothing result [from the attempt at necromancy], the same experiment must be renewed in the following year, and if necessary a third time, when it is certain that the desired apparition will be obtained, and the longer it has been delayed the more realistic and striking it will be"... (Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, pages 120-122, 125, 133-134) [2nd Ed. pages 143-145, 147-148, 158]

As it was explained to me:

As Joseph Smith met God , he then wanted to know if God had a father and would that qualify God's father to become a higher level of God, than the God he had just met. Thus Joseph Smith wanted to know.

If a SUPREME BEING did exist. ??

You know --""As man is God once was --as God is man may become, thus unfolds our deatiny"".

JB