From the FAIR Wiki:

"It is important to realize that critics of the Book of Mormon base their arguments on DNA data that has never been shown to be even relevant to the issue of Book of Mormon genetics, let alone conclusive. Such critics have cobbled together DNA data gathered from unrelated studies to produce arguments with the appearance of scientific weight but having no real significance. No genetic studies have been designed and performed to test the hypothesis that Native Americans were of Lehite descent and that this inheritance is detectable today....

"Population genetics indicate that Lehi can likely be counted among the ancestors of all native Americans—a position that the Church has reinforced by changing the 1981 Book of Mormon introduction from 'principal ancestors' to 'among the ancestors'....

"Genetic attacks on the Book of Mormon focus on the fact that Amerindian DNA seems closest to Asian DNA, and not DNA from 'the Middle East' or 'Jewish' DNA. However, this attack ignores several key points, among which is the fact that the Book of Mormon states that Lehi and his family are clearly not Jews....

"Identifying DNA criteria for Manasseh and Ephraim may always be beyond our reach. But, even identifying markers for Jews—a group that has remained relatively cohesive and refrained from intermarriage with others more than most groups—is an extraordinarily difficult undertaking....

"It should be remembered too that many sectarian critics use DNA science in a sort of 'suicide bombing' attack on the Church...."
http://fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/DNA_evidence

This is kind of confusing. So they say there have been no studies that have tested the theory that modern day Indians are descended from Lehi. The Book of Mormon says that Lehi was descended from Manasseh who was the oldest son of Joseph. And we don't really know much about DNA of the tribe of Manasseh. But wouldn't studies that indicate modern day American Indians do not come from the Middle East have some relevance since Lehi supposedly came from the Middle East not East Asia?

How strong is it for the BOM?
Ball is in the LDS court to provide evidence of their claims.

The problem for the BoM goes way, WAY beyond DNA. But even so, DNA studies which have been done place amerindians clearly into the asian category.

Additionally, every single, solitary shred of archaeological and anthropological evidence which has been discovered in the Americas contradicts the BoM narrative.

There is nothing. Nada. Zilch.

Sometimes absence of evidence is, in fact, evidence of absence.

That native americans had siberian ancestry was established long before science knew about DNA. It was an educated guess based on lots of physiological comparisons between different ethnic groups. Then DNA came along and pretty much confirmed what was already known.

And when it comes to the BoM, there simply is no evidence of such a civilisation anywhere on either continent. Lot's of tribes and civilisations yes, but certainly no old world technology, no old world crops, no old world animals, no old world writing, no old world calendar, no old world religion and on and on it goes. In this context of a completely undetectable civilization, DNA is simply the last nail in the coffin.

in WWII, Navahos realized they could pass for Japanese in the fog of war.

nuff said.

There's NO DNA evidence for the BOM! Case closed!!

Overwhelming against.

Pre-Columbian Native Americans came from Siberia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas

FWIW, any argument that sounds like "we don't know what Jewish DNA looked like a few thousand years ago" would get you laughed out of any University that isn't BYU.

Claiming that 'Lehi and his family are clearly not Jews' is pathetic at best.

So what were they, Inuit?

No, of course not. The story puts them in the Middle-East. Claiming that they 'clearly not Jews' is childishly transparent attempt to dodge the fact that Pre-Columbian Native Americans are absolutely not Middle-Eastern.

have a leg to stand on.

Look for articles in reputable, peer reviewed genetics journals and you won't find a hint of the Mormon claim.

There are a lot of LDS geneticists and they publish a lot - but never about the BoM or Jewish Indians. They'd be laughed at. That doesn't stop those same LDS geneticists from feeding the flock little faith promoting stories however.

" But wouldn't studies that indicate modern day American Indians do not come from the Middle East have some relevance since Lehi supposedly came from the Middle East not East Asia? "

Only if you are interested in accepting the objective real truth, willing to be open and honest about it.

elohim changed the native americans' dna to look siberian, removed all the pre-columbian american horses' remains, and buried dinosaur bones and transitional fossils to test our faith...

it says so on the kinderhook plates...

(insert bitter sarcasm here)

Because the Nephites were so wicked God chose to curse them with siberian DNA. Afterall siberian DNA is morally inferior. They no longer deserved that morally superior jewish DNA!

So I read that several (I think it was four) BYU graduates and TBMs with degrees in archeology set out on a quest to prove that the Nephites were real and the BoM was true. After a long time and a lot of LDS tithing money was spent on these expeditions, all four of them left the church, citing the undeniable fact that the Nephites never existed as their reason for losing their faith.

Has anyone else ever heard this, and does anyone know if it's true?

Would love to hear more on these four.

The Apologists can claim all they want, but two things stand out:
First, the church changed to preface to the Book of Mormon by inseerting the word 'among' in the Doubleday editions.

Second, the church then made this change to the online official version at lds dot org. When the new edition is out in print it too will include this change.

Third, NOBODY outside of the mormons is saying anything about Isrealite DNA, except that it is not found in the natives. Rest assured, if Hebrew DNA was found to be as the folks at FAIR would have you believe, you'd be reading about it. A LOT. And it would be mentioned in scientific and religious and archeological magaziones.

"Losing a Lost Tribe" by Simon Southerton is by far the best summary of evidence to date, however, it gets dismissed by Mormons as being biased, anti-Mormon literature. So here are some unbiased books that corroborate "Lost Tribe".

"Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond (first rate assassination of the BoM)

"Mapping Human History" Steve Olson

"The Seven Daughters of Eve" Bryan Sykes

"1491" Charles Mann

"Jacob's Legacy: A Genetic View of Jewish History" David B. Goldstein

"DNA & Tradition: The Genetic Link to the Ancient Hebrews" Rabbi Yaakov Kleiman (totally demolishes BoM claims)

"The Journey of Man" and "Deep Ancestry" Spencer Wells

"Genes, Peoples, and Languages" Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza (must read!)

Good reading to you!

Let me make this as simple I as can. There are five major "haplogroups" involved in classifying "mitochondrial DNA" among pre-Columbian Native Americans.

That's the short segment of DNA, existing outside the nucleus and passed on from mother to child, and unchanged except for when mutations arise. There are 16,595 "letters" in the molecular chain. The only changes that arise--as opposed to what happens in autosomal or nuclear DNA--occur as a result of replication errors. We can track those changes and using probability science, predict with reasonable accuracy how many will occur in a given length of time (we're talking thousands of years here).

Scientist have separated those five haplogroups on the basis of common "changes in the sequence," and they've assigned these major groupings the letters A, B, C, D, and X. This is because the first studies of mtDNA were done with Native Americans (because there is substantially less variation in the New World because it was settled last). X was identified at a much later time...

Think of those five letters as five different colored marbles. Say orange, yellow, blue, red, and white. In Siberia, there are areas with large numbers of orange, yellow, blue, and red marbles, and even a little tiny area with white ones as well.

In the Middle East, there are areas with many more different colors of marbles, purple, green, turquoise, pink, brown, tan, etc. There are even a few white ones, but the white is a slightly different shade than the one found in the Americas.

All of the marbles found so far among Native Americans have been orange, red, yellow, blue, and white. There are no brown, purple, green, pink, etc. marbles in ancient Native Americans.

So, where did their ancestors come from?

To borrow a phrase from Matt, this one is utter codswallop...

>"Population genetics indicate that Lehi can likely be counted among the ancestors of all native Americans—a position that the Church has reinforced by changing the 1981 Book of Mormon introduction from 'principal ancestors' to 'among the ancestors'"

The DNA science is overwhelming; even nuclear DNA has reached the point where we can identify "imports" based on European/Native American intermarriages. Such genetic sequences do "swap places," but they do so in long lengthy sequences, and they are readily identifiable. Over the course of a millenium or two, they would've become much shorter, because of further recombination. They haven't, and there are none of the shorter sequences we would expect to find if Lehi's voyage was a reality and not a 19th century myth.

Joseph Smith taught that Lehi and Company were the ancestors of today's Native Americans, and Mormons set up missions among "the Lamanites" until very recently.

The church positions today amount to a wholesale retreat from past pronouncements, and they are nevertheless also a wholesale retreat from reality.

Cabbie, great DNA primer. Enjoyed it.

It is impossible to prove that there are NO descendents of middle easterners in the pre-columbian populations of North and South America. However, Joseph Smith taught as did the MO that ALL of the natives were descendents of those populations. I agree the whole B of M is a JOKE as is all of Modum.

"Genetic attacks on the Book of Mormon focus on the fact that Amerindian DNA seems closest to Asian DNA, and not DNA from 'the Middle East' or 'Jewish' DNA. However, this attack ignores several key points, among which is the fact that the Book of Mormon states that Lehi and his family are clearly not Jews...."

The apologists who say the above are ignoring D&C 57:4 "Wherefore, it is wisdom that the land should be purchased by the saints, and also every tract lying westward, even unto the line running directly between Jew and Gentile..."

Jesus said that the indigenous people in the United States were Jews. West of Missouri was Indian country. The Indian Removal Act was intended to relocate all eastern tribes to the west side of the Mississippi so Joseph Smith's "revelation" was meant for all U.S. tribes. The BofM says that the Mulekites were Jews. The apologist statement above denies the words of Christ.

"Identifying DNA criteria for Manasseh and Ephraim may always be beyond our reach. But, even identifying markers for Jews—a group that has remained relatively cohesive and refrained from intermarriage with others more than most groups—is an extraordinarily difficult undertaking...."

The apologist statement above is just not true. This link is a very good resource for the scientific work being done on Jewish DNA.

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-jews.html

No Viking DNA has been found in America even though they were on Newfoundland's L’Anse aux Meadows on and off for a period of about 10 years. But guess what? American Indian DNA has been found in Iceland, indicating that Vikings took women from Newfoundland:

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2010/11/first_americans_1.php

If any population group from the Near East during biblical times arrived in America and left descendants, they would show up in the DNA studies but they do not.

Here is a condensed list of DNA studies. None of these support the theory of the BofM migrations:

Native American Mitochondrial DNA Analysis Indicates That the Amerind and the Nadene Populations Were Founded by Two Independent Migrations
Genetics, January 1992

asian affinities and continental radiation of the four founding native american mtdnas
american journal of human genetics, 1993

mtDNA Variation in the Yanomami: Evidence for Additional New World Founding Lineages
The American Journal of Human Genetics, 1996

mtDNA Haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?
The American Journal of Human Genetics, 1998

Testing migration patterns and estimating founding population size in Polynesia by using human mtDNA sequences
PNAS 1998

mtDNA Variation among Greenland Eskimos: The Edge of the Beringian Expansion
American Journal of Human Genetics, 2000

Do the Four Clades of the mtDNA Haplogroup L2 Evolve at Different Rates?
american journal of human genetics, october 2001

The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia
The American Journal of Human Genetics, 2001

The Archaeology of Ushki Lake, Kamchatka, and the Pleistocene Peopling of the Americas
Science, 25 July 2003

Identificiation of Native American Founder mtDNAs Through the Analysis of Complete mtDNA Sequences: Some Caveats
Annals of Human Genetics, October 2003

Features of Evolution and Expansion of Modern Humans, Inferred from Genomewide Microsatellite Markers
The American Journal of Human Genetics, May, 2003

Y Chromosome Evidence for Differing Ancient Demographic Histories in the Americas
The American Journal of Human Genetics, 2003

Origin and Diffusion of mtDNA Haplogroup X
The American Journal of Human Genetics, 2003

Identification of Native American founder mtDNAs through the analysis of complete mtDNA sequences: Some caveats
Annals of Human Genetics, 2003

Polarity and Temporality of High Resolution Y Chromosome Distributions in India Identify Both Indigenous and Exogenous Expansions and Reveal Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Patoralists
The American Journal of Human Genetics, February 2006

A novel subgroup Q5 of human Y chromosomal haplogroup Q in India
BMC Evolutionary Biology 2007

Beringian Standstill and Spread of Native American Founders
PLos One, September 5, 2007

Genetic Variation and Population Structure in Native Americans
PLoS, November 2007

The Phylogeny of the Four Pan-American MtDNA Haplogroups: Implications for Evolutionary Disease Studies (Perego)
Plos One, March 2008

Mitochondrial Population Genomics Supports a Single Pre-Clovis Origin with a Coastal Route for the Peopling of the Americas
The American Journal of Human Genetics, March 2008

The Late Pleistocene Dispersal of Modern Humans in the Americas
Science, March 2008

New binary polymorphisms reshape and increase resolution of the human y chromosomal haplogroup tree
Genome Researh, April 2, 2008

Updated Comprehensive Phylogenetic Tree of Global Human Mitochondrial DNA Variation
Mutation in Brief #1039, 2008

DNA from Pre-Clovis Human Coprolites in Oregon, North America
Science Magazine, 9 May 2008

Paleo Eskimo mtDNA Genome Reveals Matrilineal Discontinuity in Greenland
Science Magazine, 27 June 2008

The Druze: A population genetic refugium of the near east
Plos One May 2008

Distinctive Paleo-Indian Migration Routes from Beringia Marked by Two Rare mtDNA Haplogroups (Perego)
Current Biology, January 13, 2009

Haplotypic Background of a Private Allele at High Frequency in the Americas
Molecular Biology Evolution, February 12, 2009

Discrepancy Between Cranial and DNA Data of Early Americans: Implications for American Peopling
Plos One, May, 2009

Linguistic and maternal genetic diversity are not correlated in Native Mexicans
Hum Genet, 4 June 2009

Correcting for Purifying Selection: An Improved Human Mitochondrial Molecular Clock
The American Journal of Human Genetics, June 12, 2009

Explaining the Imperfection of the Molecular Clock of Hominid Mitochondria
Plos One, December, 2009

Human Migrations: The Two Roads Taken
Current Biology, Vol 19 No 5, 2009

Ancient human genome sequence of an extinct Palaeo Eskimo
Nature February 2010

The initial peopling of the Americas: A growing number of founding mitochondrial genomes from Beringia (Perego)
Genome Research, June 29, 2010

Hoggle, that is a great bibliography. Thanks for sharing it.

"No genetic studies have been designed and performed to test the hypothesis that Native Americans were of Lehite descent and that this inheritance is detectable today...."

How could they? Lehites never existed. There is no such thing as Lehite DNA. So what they're requiring before we critics prove that there's no Lehite DNA in native americans, is that we FIRST identify Lehite DNA!
Yup, got us there.
That's like asking us to prove that there's no Martian DNA in native americans. Ah Ha! you weasly anti-Mormons don't even know what Martian DNA is! How can you say there's none of it in native americans if you don't know what your looking for?

Simple answer- because ALL native american DNA is accounted for as Asian DNA! There's NONE leftover to attribute to anywhere or anyone else. ALL of it points back to Asia, EXCEPT for readily identifiable post-1492 late introductions. Prior to old-world contact there simply is no trace of anything BUT Asian DNA.

So...that means we don't NEED to know what Lehite DNA looks like. It doesn't matter if it was Jewish, Greek, Egyptian, Persian,...Martian, Jupiterian, Neptunian...WHATEVER it was, IT ISN'T THERE!

And conversely, NO native american DNA types occur anywhere BUT East Asia. The DNA is all-present-and-accounted-for on both sides of the Bering Straight.

"Lehi and his family are clearly not Jews"..."Identifying DNA criteria for Manasseh and Ephraim may always be beyond our reach"
They're Eskimo then? Was there any Eskimo-like DNA anywhere near Jerusalem in 600BC? THAT'S what it would take.

But apologists revel in our inability to isolate Lehite DNA, a logical fallacy.

The "Book of Zelph" answers this and many other presumably unanswerable questions about the BOM.

When "Laban the Younger" chased after Nephi who had murdered his father Laban, he took a number of "Asian Whores" with him on his journey to the Americas. This is obviously where the Asian DNA of the American Indians came from.

Satan has somehow temporarily thwarted widespread dispersal of this "second witness to the BOM"! The Book of Zelph website is down, but you can find it by searching the web archives. (For some reason rules don't allow me to include it here)

If Manassehs real father came from far east, and then Manasse married a woman from far east, and all their descendants chose far east descended partners until the day of 'Lehi', and something similar with the ancestors of mulekites. Then it could explain it all!

Normally, this would be a bit unlikely of course, but you got to remember, we all really actually know the BoM to be really true, so that explanation becomes very likely!

That's solid! Imaginary people don't have DNA!

In the name of self-confidence. Amen!

SLCabbie, Hoggle and nebularry all give great info. With nebularry's list you'll find that anthropology, archeology, and even zoology all converge to the same answer: there is no measurable influence from the middle east or any region except NE Asia in the Americas (though some diffusionists claim Pacific islander influence).
Populations as large as claimed by the BoM would have left ample evidence. Small migrations 1000 years of Norwegian sailors left labs-full of data in remote Canada. Not a single shred of evidence of the millions of nephites/lamanites in dozens of cities have ever been found.

As for the mormon apologists claims that we don't have manasseh/ephraim DNA to compare with, that is unfounded. They are, according to the bible, from Egyptian descent through maternal mtDNA (Egyptian wives of Joseph), which is very distinct from NE Asia, and classified if not identified specifically.The paternal YDNA of Lehi & Ishmael is clearly, according to the bible & BoM, hebraic/abrahamic, and extrmely similar to known Jewish lineages that have been studied thoroughly.

Furthermore, as Hoggle pointed out, Mulek was of royal jewish descent and brought jews with him, according to the BoM, and founded the largest city listed in early BoM history (Zarahemla). The royal Jewish lineages are well known, both in mtDNA and YDNA.

Mulek would have discernible, royalty Davidic descent (as his father Zedekiah is a direct descendant of Josiah and hence David). And we're told that dilution is the problem there. (The lost African Jewish Lemba DNA, we're told, is not a good example because it is based on the Cohen modality, and Levites are persnickety about preserving family lines. Like Mulek's royal family wasn't?)

In fact, in the book, Genetic Diversity Among Jews by Batsheva Bonn-Temir and Avinoam Adam, Oxford University Press, 1992, chapter 4 is titled Types of Mitochondrial DNA among Jews.

Studies found that mtDNA variability from Jewish women was smaller than among other population (including Caucasian, Asian, Australian,African). Interestingly, they found that Native Amerindians have lower mtDNA heterogeneity values / variability. A lot of work in Jewish mtDNA focuses on Ashkenazic Jews, which have 14 different mtDNA types.

(See also,

The Matrilineal Ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry: Portrait of a Recent Founder Event
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_Doron.pdf

MtDNA evidence for a genetic bottleneck in the early history of the Ashkenazi Jewish population
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Behar%202004%20mtDNA.pdf )

For paternal matching (think of recent advances in admixture studies) see:
http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?group=Davidic
where they've identified Y-DNA12, Y-DNA37, or Y-DNA67 markers as royalty, going all the way back to David. How fortunate for the Mulek searchers!


Furthermore, in his halpotypic study, Ugo Perego (Mormon Scientist Extraordinaire) says that there is a
"novel X2 branch...named X2g, and its presence in Native Americans most probably indicates an additional and very rare Native American founder..."

( See http://www.genetree.com/documents/achilli_perego_distinctive_perego_et_al_paleo_indian_migrations_2009_current_biology.pdf )

The halpogroup X2g, as I understand, is theorized to have entered the lineage through this rare individual founder much more than 10,000 years ago. I'm not in full agreement with Ugo myself, but let's humor him.

If 10+kya X2g can be found today, I'm sure there's a detectable haplotype from the Davidic line that can be seen from entry into a population 2,600 ya.

If there's not enough here to go on for finding traces of Mulek's lineage among Amerindians, when they can find a single introduction of X2g by a rare founder 10+kya, then the FAIRies better just keep their excuses to themselves.

Finding Mulek should be easier than anything. But he's no where to be found!



The other FAIR claim is that a small family (Lehi's) entering into a large population would become diluted (the DNA anyway) in around 300 years.

No study is referenced by apologists, except a mere mention that it happened in Iceland.

But in the actual journals, this is not the case.

For example, a 2006 study reports DNA-based research linking DNA retrieved from a single 10,000-year-old fossilized tooth from an Alaskan island, with existing, specific coastal tribes in Tierra del Fuego, Ecuador, Mexico, and California. Unique DNA markers found in the fossilized tooth were found only in these limited and specific coastal tribes, and were not comparable to markers found in any other indigenous peoples in the Americas. (Ref: “Genetic analysis of early Holocene skeletal remains from Alaska and its implications for the settlement of the Americas”, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 132(4), 605-621 (2007).)

Here, the DNA testing done in this 2006 study is so sensitive that it linked a singe person (DNA from a fossilized tooth) to specific, living people across two contintents, 10,000 years later.

It's argued that this tooth was a specific DNA to match against, and that Lehi's DNA is unkown, and 2500 years old.

Yet, an actual migrating group from Jerusalem about 600 BC went to S. Africa, assimilated, diluted and now speak another local language. And their DNA has been matched back to specific polymorphisms of the Cohen modal haplotype (Jewish) markers. The Lemba are the actual group that left Jerusalem and intermingled in a continent. changing their appearance (black), language and other elements of life. And they are still found today to be Semetic, based on DNA.
( See "Y Chromosomes Traveling South: The Cohen Modal Haplotype and the Origins of the Lemba—the “Black Jews of Southern Africa”", American Journal of Human Genetics 66 (2): 674, February 1, 2000.)

One argument against this is that the Cohen modal haplotype is preserved by levites who are careful to not intermarry and to preserve bloodlines, and that Lehi had none of this.

Still, A 2003 study of the Y-chromosome found that Haplogroup R1a, uncommon in the Middle East or among Sephardic Jews, originating in Central Asia and dominant in Eastern Europe, is present in over 50% of Ashkenazi Jews. While the rest of Ashkenazi paternal lineage is of Middle Eastern origin. The researchers suggest a founding event 2000+ years ago, probably involving one or very few European men, occurring at a time close to the initial formation and settlement of the Ashkenazi community as a possible explanation. Ashkenazi, Sephardics and Israelites, on the other hand, were found to share the same genetic signature, originating in the Middle East 2000 years earlier. ( See "The Matrilineal Ancestry of Ashkenazi Jewry: Portrait of a Recent Founder Event" (PDF). The American Journal of Human Genetics 78 (3): 487–97. March 2006. )

In other words, real scientists are publishing real data, that shows DNA can indeed match very tedious mixing that probably happened in a single DNA introduction 2,000 years prior.

And the mopologists have the stones to claim Lehites' DNA is diluted in 300 years (or even 2500 years) when it is found specifically in other groups 10,000 or 2,000 years ago?

There is another way to think about the BofM "history" that I found very interesting. I looked at real people and real history, with DNA studies backing them up.

The Etruscans are a good case study example. Their beginnings are roughly the same time period as the mythical Lehi. But the archaeology supports the Etruscan civilization. Their origin has been debated for at least two thousand years, but DNA seems to be shedding some light on this. The report is titled "Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans". Here is a link:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852723/pdf/AJHGv80p759.pdf

When apologists claim that Lehi's DNA was diluted too much to detect, consider what was found in the above report on the Etruscans:

"Such a genetic contribution has been extensively diluted by admixture, but it appears that there are still locations in Tuscany, such as Murlo, where traces of its arrival are easily detectable."

Real history and science are fascinating. Apologists are forced to promote pseudohistory and pseudoarchaeology. DNA is damning to Mormonism.

as well as so much more valuable info!

Also, just wanted to note, the idea that DNA anthropologists are ignoring the possibility that middle east DNA influences native american culture is ridiculous. They map specific mtDNA and YDNA regions to find a match to whatever regions come out. If a single researcher had ever found a match of native American (modern or ancient from remains) DNA to middle eastern DNA, it would have been heralded loudly in the peer reviewed journals. And it would have made that researcher's career for years to come.

They're not ignoring it, they'd love nothing else than to find a surprise in the data. They're eager for it. And it isn't coming forth because the BoM is fiction.

DNA is not anti-anything. It just is.

The first court case involving DNA evidence was in the 1980s.

How much longer are Mormons going to bend themselves into pretzels to explain away DNA evidence?

The Book of Mormon is fiction, plain and simple.

"Population genetics indicate that Lehi can likely be counted among the ancestors of all native Americans—a position that the Church has reinforced by changing the 1981 Book of Mormon introduction from 'principal ancestors' to 'among the ancestors'.."


What does this statement tell us? It is the apologists admitting that the prophets and apostles can be wrong about something. If they are wrong about this very central notion of Mormonism, then why might they not be wrong about earrings, petting, mastrubation, homosexuality, the nature of atonement, eternal marriage, pickles, or anything else. If they can be wrong, what differentiates their advice from that of anybody else? Why do I need the guidance of these inspired leaders?

The science on this issue is pretty clear cut. The apologists don't have any evidence to affirm their position that a community of Israelites inhabited the Americas well before Eurpoean discovery of the Americas, so they are resorting to Rumsfeldian logic. "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence." Yes, but that's not enough to argue for something that doesn't make sense--especially if we consider the lingustic, technological, and cultural anachronsims and errors in the Book of Mormon. If you are talking about the kind of sacrifices expected from the Mormon church, this is pretty thin. The apologists are speaking to people who are looking for any reason to hang on to their faltering testimony. I don't think this argument is winning too many people to their cause.

I think theories of trans-oceanic contact, whether on purpose or not, between both Pacific AND Atlantic populations has fascinated scientists for years, so DNA studies would naturally be of interest to non-LDS scholars. Sorry, LDS scholars.

P.S. Before they label Simon Southerton as an anti-, LDS apologists should remember that he used to be far from it...

great book -Mapping Human History...and for linguists, study the history of the Athabascan language. My Navajo friend understood Mongolian very well when he travelled there, and they understood his Navajo equally well. It traces back to the Northern most island of Japan. Bering strait.....

My Navajo friend travelled to Mongolia. He understood them easily. When he spoke Navajo, they understood him as well.

The roots of the language are Athabascan. Descendants of the Athebascan-speaking people have been traced to the Northern-most island of Japan.

Also, a rare genetic disease is prevalent in the Athebascan-decendend people. It is called SCIDS (Severe Combined Immunologic Deficiency Syndrome. These populations have a prevalence of one in 2000 of being born without a functional immune system. The syndrome is extremely rare outside of these populations, almost absent entirely.

People crossed the Bering strait. The language and genetic-disease links are well documented. As the science progresses, the greater likelihood that our biology will disprove the BoM.

Joe Smith lived in the 19th Century. He did not know about DNA nor could he have. As more genetic links are discovered, the more the BoM looks like a long, deranged comic book. It's going to be so hard for the apologists (who have no scientific background) to explain any of this. Those who are actually scientists would quickly bow out of the discussion or be rejected as legitimate scientists.

I hear Morg Grandma now.."Our lovely grandson looks JUST like Uncle Portly." Wondrous genetics. They don't like genetics working the other way.

Read "Mapping Human History." A great book in which geneologists from different countries even surprised themselves.

I'd like to know more about Navajo the way you tell it. If this is correct, it would be sensational. To my knowledge the only claim about Navajo and Siberian languages was a distant relationship to some of the Paleo-siberian languages, which are not Mongolian.

The northernmost island of Japan - that would probably be the Ainu, who live there. But to my knowledge the ancestry has not been traced there, it is a hypothesis because the Ainu are an aboriginal people in Japan.

If you have better information I'd be thankful for references.

use guys R breaking my heart with all these Factoids...

shall we go outside & smoke some BC bud?

All these things DO PROVE ONE THING:

Morbots can twist Anything Anyway they please.

that, my friends, IS A FACT.

Guy...4/20 was yesterday . We missed it. Anyway, I did.
Cowabunga, man

If the Mormon church had kept to their original claim - that all Native Americans were descendants of Laman - the DNA evidence would be devastating. But in face of that evidence the official Mormon church changed their claim to be that the Book of Mormon peoples were only "among" the ancestors of the Native Americans, and a tiny little group "among" them at that. In this way the Mormon church has tried to skirt off the devastating evidence.