didn't want to highjack that thread, so here's a new one.

summer wrote

Mormonism has the one thing the mainstream churches don't have -- a heavy-handed enforcement mechanism in the form of a temple recommend. If you don't toe the line, the bishop can pull your recommend, thus denying to the member certain critical church ordinances. Mormons are periodically subjected to detailed interviews with the bishop in which any "wrong" answer could be used to justify a pulled recommend. A lesser penalty might be public shaming, such as forbidding the taking of the sacrament (communion,) or for young priesthood holders, passing the sacrament.



Sometime last week an exmo asked what's the first thing a nevermo needs to understand about moism?

my response was that it's all about the TR.

after reading summer's quote above, I am reminded of Dune (the David Lynch movie - not the book) where the slaves had heart plugs. little tabs sticking out of their chests and with one false move or answer, someone could just pull out the plug and cause instant death.

so yeah, having a TR is like having a heart plug. One false move and it's yanked.

It got me to thinking. What you see above is the result.

To extend it a bit more -- the church holds your family hostage through the enforcement mechanism of the TR. Want to have a "forever family"? You'd better all have that TR. Want to see your child married? Once again, you are held hostage to the TR.

None of the mainstream churches can come even close to this degree of control. And because of that, mainstream Christians feel much more free to diverge in their beliefs and practices.

My thinking is that Mormonism was really rather brilliantly conceived. Diabolically conceived, if you will. It was conceived with the object of keeping people in, keeping them on the straight and narrow, and in giving them a vested interest in keeping their family members in as well. And the temple recommend is the lynchpin for accomplishing those objectives.

And so the knowledge about the Temple Recommend should be what nevermos get taught in some manner by someone ASAP. It is paramount that they learn this control mechanism so they won't fall for this cult. So how would this happen?

I know all the milk before meat stuff. BUT seriously, nevermos would never think a religion would have such a hold on them. NONE of the mainstream Protestant churches I know do. I am sure that my daughter didn't know all this Temple Recommend stuff early on as she was being love bombed. She had to know later as she was a bridesmaid for a wedding and had to wait outside the Temple as she hadn't joined up yet.

I think this is why so many converts don't stay in. They see the whole practice as very unChristlike and mean. They also get a fill of losing 10 percent of their income to an organization that doesn't tell anyone where the money goes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2011 11:29AM by honestone.

Practically all religions have higher rituals to initiate the believer into higher echelons of the religion. There are rituals at the Vatican, for example that are meant to determine which people have which roles in the hierarchy of the religion. More "secrets" or "keys" are revealed to the initiate, and usually they are given more responsibility in the organization. This adds to his commitment and buy-in vesting.

Mormons are not doing anything new. They are more of a layman amateur run organization. They include more of the lower initiates to vest them. I wouldn't say it is diabolically conceived any more than the concept of a monastery or convent or Catholic organization itself.

Consider:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

from Modern Catholic Dictionary by John A. Hardon, S.J. Doubleday & Co., Inc. Garden City, NY 1980:

Hierarchy. The successors of the Apostles under the Pope as successor of St. Peter. Three powers are included under the Catholic hierarchy: teaching, pastoral, and sacerdotal. They correspond to the threefold office laid on Christ as man for the redemption of the world; the office of prophet or teacher, the pastoral or royal office of ruler, and the priestly office of sanctifying the faithful. Christ transferred this threefold office, with the corresponding powers, to the Apostles and their successors. A man enters the hierarchy by episcopal ordination when he receives the fullness of the priesthood. But he depends on collegial union with the Bishop of Rome and the rest of the Catholic hierarch for actually being able to exercise the two other powers of teaching divine truth and of legitimately ruling the believers under his jurisdiction. (Etym. Latin hiearchia, holy authority, from Greek hierarchia, power of a hierarches, a steward or president of sacred rites.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just any Catholic can't wear a pretty gown at the Vatican and have a role of power. He must undergo the ritual to fill that role. The Mormon temple is the main ritual to advance the believer in the organization. Then he is included in the fellowship that only the ones exposed to the higher rituals enjoy. Catholics are more exclusive and don't extend the higher rituals to as many of the believers. Mormons include more of their members. The end result is more social pressure and vesting at lower levels among Mormons.

Then again, the Catholics had a lot of inventive money making schemes too, back in the day. Selling indulugences, anyone? ;)

Mormons are amateurs, I tell you. They have 2000 years of Catholic flimflam to use as a template.

For sure those evil priests...

stormy

It would be pretty foolish to believe otherwise given the size of the Catholic Church and its age. And for a long time many priests became priests, not because they felt a calling or vocation, but because they were the second or third son and that was their role in life.

I'm not trashing the Catholic church here, just being honest about a long and sometimes nasty history. Mormonism hasn't had time (and probably hasn't had the right political environment) to get anywhere near the atrocities the Catholics have managed in the past. That's not to say that Mormonism couldn't or wouldn't, given the right set of circumstances. :)

I'm thinking this through myself, so bear with me.

I would say that the average Catholic is pretty much disinterested in the power structure of the church. Catholics make a decision, ususally at a young age, as to whether or not they wish to pursue a religious vocation. Most don't. I'm sure that among those who do pursue vocations, there are some who are deeply interested in climbing the "corporate ladder." But for most Catholics, it's a non-issue.

The thing is, you can be a really lousy Catholic and still be assured that you will be together with your family in heaven. You can be a lousy, sinful, inactive, non-paying Catholic and still attend your child's wedding. You probably would even still be on very good terms with your parish priest! There is no real pressure to make a confession, and even if you do, you can go to another parish where the priest doesn't know you. Communion is rarely denied to a church member (although you are supposed to make the confession first.) A typical repentance process might be to say 10 of prayer "A" and then ten of prayer "B". Or to pray the rosary so many times. After 20 minutes or so, you are out of there, with your sins forgiven. Excommunication is rare in the Catholic church. There is much more tolerance for public dissent than there is in Mormonism.

Again -- the Catholic church has very little with which to enforce their policies.

I'll give you a practical example. One of my cousins was married in the Catholic church. She eventually divorced and sought a Catholic annulment (essentially, a church cancellation of your previous marriage that allows you to remarry in the Catholic church.) Back in those days, it was a torturous process to get the annulment. It's still not easy, but my understanding is that it's eased up a bit. My cousin was unwilling to wait, so she remarried in a Lutheran church. My Catholic family members were suprised, but they understood why she did what she did. Everyone attended her second wedding, and no one disowned her nor expressed disapproval. It was considered to be only a small blip on the family radar. Basically, everyone gave it the big shrug.

And what was the Catholic church going to do about it? They did not excommunicate her, they couldn't. They couldn't tell her that she would no longer be eligible to see her family in heaven. Maybe the most they could do would be to deny her communion, and I'm not even certain they did that much. Basically, they had very few "cards" to play with. She was free to do as she pleased and still be a practicing Catholic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2011 12:11PM by summer.

Same thing happened when my brother married a Catholic girl who was trying to get an annulment of her first marriage. She and my brother married in a Lutheran church. But soon enough all was right with her and the Catholic church and they brought their kids up Catholic.

I agree that having a vocation in a church and being just a member of the congregation are two different things. I do not jump through hoops to attend my Protestant church and neither do any other members who are not pastors, etc. Mormonism makes you jump through many hoops- tithing settlement, interviews, callings, etc. to be worthy. You can not compare the two at all. I don't think Dagny really meant ordinary members all had to follow strict adherence to a set of behaviors to be in full compliance with their church. But it came out that way. I'd never be in a church with a structure like that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2011 02:50PM by honestone.

Well..while that is so true, the average catholic doesn't have to jump thru the mormon bishops hoop for a tr..go to confession and you are good to go...and depending on where you live..no one rats you out to other members...you can go to which church you want, only records that follow you are baptism and marriage, confirmation etc.

The lower catholics have an easier time than the average mormon.

stormy

the point wasn't to compare and contrast Catholics and the morg,

it was to compare them to slaves subjected to instant death the minute they screwed up.

I thought the analogy to slaves with heart plugs, that could be yanked on a whim, apropo.

Catholics do not live that way. At least not in America where they are all more or less cafeteria.

Mo's however, live in fear of screwing up and getting yanked.

love where these thread sometimes end.

Anagrammy, if you do come to NYC for the BoM, how 'bout we meet up and do you?

I'd love to get together with you, Scooter! I'll post if my plans solidify. That would be awesome!!!

Anagrammy

Mormons do live on a path of egg shells. They must constantly worry about everything they do or say beacause the tab/recommend/ward-standing can be pulled at a moment's notice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2011 09:27PM by Cheryl.

garden hose lady.