This morning, I was hanging out on Facebook and one of my friends, a girl I first met when we were in fifth grade, posted a cheery reminder that today is Children's Day in Turkey. Before this morning, I didn't actually realize that the Turks celebrate Children's Day on April 23, but now that I know, the timing of that holiday seems quite ironic.

Having spent two years living in the Republic of Armenia as a Peace Corps Volunteer, I learned a lot about the Armenian Genocide perpetrated at the hands of the Turks. From 1995 to 1997, I taught English at a school dedicated to the memory of an Armenian poet who was killed in the Genocide in 1915. I met his daughter, an elderly woman who had emigrated to France and visited the school while I was teaching there. I saw firsthand how the Genocide still affects Armenians today.

When my friend wrote that today is Turkish Children's Day, it suddenly dawned on me that tomorrow is Genocide Remembrance Day. Suddenly, I remembered Yerevan on April 24th during the two years I was a Peace Corps Volunteer. The first year, a friend and I went to the Genocide Memorial and joined the thousands of Armenians climbing the hill to pay their respects to the people who were lost.

The Genocide Memorial in Yerevan is an eternal flame, surrounded by twelve massive slabs that represent the twelve provinces Armenia lost to the Ottoman Turks. Back in the 1990s, Armenia was dealing with a fuel shortage, so they only ran the flame on Remembrance Day. I will never forget standing in line with Armenians bearing flowers. I watched a few people collapse because the crowds were so huge and the grief was so intense.

My second year in Yerevan, I lived in an apartment directly across the street from the Memorial. On April 24, 1997, I watched from my apartment window the same enormous crowd of people climbing the hill to pay their respects. I have a very moving picture of the eternal flame that was taken that day. The sorrow on the faces of the people who were there that day is plainly evident.

While I was in Armenia, I also visited Turkey. When I told people in Turkey that I lived in Armenia, they commented on how they knew the Armenians didn't like them and they didn't understand why. The Turkish government still refuses to acknowledge the hundreds of thousands of Armenians that were killed from 1915-1923, as they were forcibly marched out of the country. Today, the Turks put political pressure on other countries to discourage them from acknowledging the Genocide. And to top it all off, they celebrate Children's Day the day before Genocide Remembrance Day. It's more than a little ironic to me that the Turks celebrate their own children and children around the world, yet they don't recognize the thousands of children who died in the Genocide.

Anyway, when my friend posted this cheery message about Turkey's Children's Day, I was suddenly reminded of what tomorrow is. I commented on that and she got very pissy. I guess I can't blame her... she probably doesn't know much about Armenia. A lot of people have never heard of the Genocide and can't even find Armenia on a map.

Don't get me wrong. I love Turkey. I think it's an interesting country and the culture is fascinating... but the timing of the Children's Day--set in 1927, just a few years after the Genocide ended-- seems a little suspect to me.

/rant



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2011 12:56PM by knotheadusc.

As you already know, I served my mission in Armenia. Remembrance day is a very big day in Armenia. I wish I could be there to remember with those people. My mission president let us go to the memorial (provided we were in street clothes and wore no tags...fine with me). It was a truly humbling experience to see the grieving people building a mountain of flowers around the eternal flame. Հայաստան: Ցավդ տանեմ և Ես քեզ շատ եմ սիրում.

Yeah... I think I remember you telling me about your mission in Armenia. I had mixed feelings about my time there toward the end. I think I was burned out and just wanted to go home. I imagine your life as a missionary was a lot more stressful than my life as a Peace Corps Volunteer. Nevertheless, the reality of the Genocide was definitely driven home to me... especially on Remembrance Day. The school I taught in actually had its own museum dedicated to the Genocide and Ruben Sevak, the writer my school was named after.

I'm sure this year is even more poignant, given that it's also Easter and Armenia is very proud of its Christian tradition.

ETA: I can actually make this rant on topic. It seems the Turks like to rewrite history the same way the Mormons do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2011 08:26PM by knotheadusc.

It isn't that I believe what Azeris say about Armenians. I really don't. They hate the Armenians with some weird, over the top passion.

However, they did get me to study a few books about the history of the Armenian genocide and what was going on at the time.

I don't think anybody who has studied this issue could recognize it as a genocide. I certainly don't. Armenians attacked and mercilessly killed Turkish and Azeri people. The Turks also mercilessly killed Armenians. They both systematically killed each other.

At worst, I think we could classify this as a mutual genocide. I think most people would look at it and call it war.

If you guys would be interested, I'll post the books I've read about the issue. They are unbiased and easily available.

On a related note, Turkey is amazingly beautiful. I enjoyed it quite a bit there. I would have traveled down to Armenia, but sadly the Azeri government is so ridiculously anti-Armenian, they would never let me back into their country with an Armenian stamp in my passport. One day I'll go back to that part of the world and see it :)

Snb, you are repeating Turkish propaganda when you write Armenians committed genocide against the Turks during the first World War (if that is, in fact, the time you were referring to in your above statement).

I believe there were Armenians who 1) defended themselves against Turkish attacks and 2) did murder Turks as revenge for the centuries of murders and pogroms the Turks committed against them and other non-Muslim minorities living within the Ottoman Empire, and then under the Young Turks.

But to write that Armenians systematically killed Turks is incorrect. I wouldn't trust any book you could present on the subject. Armenians at the time of WWI (that is, 1915 and after) were not in a position to "systematically kill" Turks - or anyone else for that matter. Armenians, in fact, were too busy being murdered and deported from Turkey into the Syrian Desert because of their Christian faith.

"According to some newly discovered documents that belonged to the interior minister of the Ottoman Empire, over 970,000 Ottoman Armenians disappeared from official population records from 1915 through 1916. These documents have been published in a recent book titled The Remaining Documents of Talat Pasha (aka "Talat Pasha's Black Book") written by the Turkish journalist Murat Bardakçı. The book is a collection of documents and records that once belonged to Mehmed Talat, known as Talat Pasha, the primary architect of the Armenian deportations. The documents were given to Mr. Bardakçı by Mr. Talat’s widow, Hayriye Talat Bafralı, in 1983. According to the documents, the number of Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire before 1915 stood at 1,256,000. The number plunged to 284,157 two years later in 1917" This quote is from Wiki on the Armenian Genocide.

I'm not sure what population records say about the Turkish population from 1915 to 1916, but I don't think there was a decrease anywhere near the decrease of Armenians and other Christians in Turkey in those years. How can you justify writing that there was systematic killing, or genocide, of the Turkish people by Armenians in 1915?

And by the way, the country that you are calling beautiful is probably what historically is Armenia - also known as Anatolia.

I'm not repeating propaganda. I actually did some good research on the subject.

I've found that anybody who denies this "genocide" is immediately labeled and stereotyped. It is easier for you to dismiss my arguments by doing that.

I'd love to actually have a conversation about it, but since you've already dismissed me as susceptible to propaganda and my sources as obviously wrong, there is no point.

Dude you have no clue, absolutely none...
Mutual genocide, what a crock of shit. is this why my grandmother
poisoned her youngest son and took poison herself and all the young women around her, so they they wouldn't be raped and given to Turks? People like you who deny the stuff make me ill. The worst part of the Genocide is people like you denying & trivializing shit. No wonder I do not have an ounce of forgiveness in me.

You are obviously too emotional about it. Not going to have a conversation with you.

If rational thought doesn't have a place in a conversation, I refuse to be a part of it. Read a book sometime.

Edit: This might be a bit too political for the board anyways.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2011 12:55PM by snb.

You make an outrageous statement and then when someone calls you on it, you run home like a little pu$$y.

It is a subject I find very interesting because I've lived in this part of the world and I stand by my statement. I'm not saying I know everything about this subject, and if I am wrong I'll change my mind because of reason not because of emotional hyperbole.

I reject that kind of crap and so should you.

But, sadly EGC, I see that this is all you yourself have contributed. Pandering to this kind of rhetoric never has suited you.

which is obviously possible, but one I don't remember, because I left the board for approx. 2 years until coming back here for the first time a few weeks ago.

Having said what you did about my previously flaming of you, along with this post, I think I know who you are.

A few years ago, did you formerly post under a different moniker on this site, while defending many LDS POVs, then you went in the Peace Corps? I could be wrong, but you sound like the same guy.

Not really a different moniker, snb is the acronym. I'm not hiding it. For some reason my old name couldn't be registered, and I couldn't figure out why, so I shortened it and made a registered account about two years ago when I got internet access again.

I've definitely changed a few of my opinions from a couple of years ago. I don't feel immune from being wrong about this issue or any others.

your claim of me flaming you.

The only people who I've come close to flaming on this board (in years) are:
* MJ (a bright, yet highly defensive if someone has a different POV and an individual who is forever the perpetual victim)
* guynoirprivateeye (one time...today)
* bona dea (once in the last few days)

and I can't remember it. What was it? If you don't want to share it, then I understand.

lol, yeah, that one is it :)

I thought that sometimes we flamed each other. I pretty sure I flamed you occasionally. Perhaps I was being too sensitive.

In actuality, you gave me some of the best advice I've ever had in my life. The point of the post where I accused you of flaming me was more to make us all smile about the situation and be friends.

I'm glad you are back and I hope you had an incredible experience in Europe. I remember sending you information on a woman I used to work with who was from the country you were going to. She is still single...and as hot as ever. :)

Azeris can be ridiculously hot. I dated an Azeri girl for a while. During that time I became very well versed in the dirty bedroom aspects of the language...

The whole experience was pretty awesome. I already miss it and have serious wanderlust again.

We weren't allowed to go to Azerbaijan for the same reason you couldn't go to Armenia. A few of my friends with a second passport were able to visit. A couple of them visited Nagorno-Karabagh. I think that issue is one of the main reasons why the Azeris hate the Armenians... but the feeling is definitely mutual. When I was a PCV, it wasn't uncommon for young Armenian men to be rounded up and shipped off to fight the Azeris for Karabagh. I saw a lot of men, young and old, who were permanently maimed by the fighting.

I can understand why the Azeris don't like the Armenians... but I can also understand why the Armenians hate the Azeris and the Turks. I can also agree that Turkey is a beautiful country. I was lucky enough to go there-- had to travel by bus through Georgia to get there, though. I think the northeastern corner, which is historically Armenia, is among one of the most areas I have ever seen. It looks like a fairyland.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2011 10:46PM by knotheadusc.

Oh yeah, I absolutely and completely reject the hatred that Azeris have towards Armenians. It is over the top ridiculous propaganda.

I understand both sides, and as far as Azeris go, they have used this situation as a political propaganda tool to keep people from questioning the government by hating a common enemy. Of course, I used to live with a family who were refugees from Nagorno-Karabagh and who had friends and relatives who were killed by Armenians.

The situation is convoluted as all hell.

So, what do the Armenians you knew think about Azeris? Do they consider NK as a situation where they are occupying another country, or something else?

Also, how is NK? I've ALWAYS wanted to go up in there and see what was going on. Is it pretty?

So many questions :)

I didn't go to NK. I did have a couple of friends who went after we COS'd. This was in the mid 1990s, though. They said it was pretty much a war zone!

To be honest, most of the Armenians I knew had a lot more negative things to say about the Turks than the Azeris. I did have some students who openly talked about Azeris in a negative way, but despite the war that was going on, they seemed to have a lot more to say about Turkey and the fact that there was little fuel, electricity, and running water. Of course, the hatred of Turkey didn't stop Armenians from going to Turkey to buy goods to sell in Armenia! My friend and I took an Armenian bus from Yerevan to Istanbul-- it took three days and was very rustic. But no one seemed to have a problem doing business in Turkey.

I did meet some Armenian refugees as well-- whole families living in rooms the size of college dorms. They had been living in Azerbaijan and were driven out. People were constantly worried about their sons going to war and being on the front lines. I know at least one of my colleagues gave a family some money to bribe a military official so their son wouldn't be in as much danger. I think a lot of Armenians felt occupying NK was justified, given the fact that Armenia is just a fraction of the size it once was. That area is interesting geographically anyway, though. If you look at a map, you see that there are many exclaves between Armenia and Azerbaijan-- tiny places that are surrounded by either country but are technically belonging to the other (if that makes any sense).

It was weird to be in Armenia in the 1990s. At that time, it was the only Peace Corps country in the region and we were pretty much hemmed in because of our neighbors. We could go south to Iran or west to Turkey or east to Azerbaijan. Flying in and out of Armenia was very expensive and kind of scary (Armenian Airlines is now mercifully defunct). Parts of Armenia are absolutely breathtakingly beautiful. Parts of it are a terrible reminder of the serious lack of taste that existed during the Soviet era.

One friend of mine went to Azerbaijan to visit a former Armenia volunteer who got a job in Baku. She said that being there was a lot like being in Armenia, except the Armenian word for money is supposedly the Azeri word for shit!

The Armenian Genocide is just one of many genocides and massacres that have gone unnoticed or have been suppressed at various levels. Hitler is said to have referred to the Armenian genocide by saying something akin to "look at that, no one cares about that today". That observation might have helped in his own Final Solution.

There are many other nasty massacres that go unnoticed. In the 1980's, for example, the Americans backed an Evangelical fascistoid general, Efraín Rios Montt in his suppression of Indian peasants. Tens of thousands were butchered and yet it was unreported in the corporate media. Indeed, people in the States were more concerned with El Salvador or South Africa. The goings on in Haiti (kidnapping presidents, supporting coups, obliterating local agriculture, etc.) are another example of evil powers willfully bringing misery to a people. The Military Regime in Burma is a particularly nasty one and we can only imagine what is going on in North Korea.
In short, the only thing left to those of us without power is knowledge of what is going on in the world and inform people befuddled and baffled by the corporate media which feeds an ignorant public with Royal Wedding news, Paris Hilton news, etc. instead of exposing heinous acts of atrocities happening around the world at this very much, some of which are supported by our tax dollars (or Chinese money in the case of Burma, or Saudi millionaires' money in the case of Al Qa'ida, etc.).

Tapirbackrider: Armenians are particularly interested in 20th and 21st century genocides. One priest in California is active in the education of people as to the events in Darfur. He is instrumental in organizing Armenians and others in exposing these events of present-day genocide.

Armenians everywhere feel the same about this: Not On Our Watch!

Thanks for posting about this. Tomorrow is Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day. Thank God my grandmother survived genocide and deportation. I remember those of her family who didn't survive, that is, everyone else. She was the sole survivor.

Here's an interesting clip from 60 Minutes about the Genocide debate...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M4gg0bExKg

Frankly the pictures and films I've seen, along with the people I've met personally who were affected, are pretty convincing to me.

knotheadusc: the Genocide still affects us today because we are still close enough in generations to have known our genocide-surviving parents and grandparents. also, the final act of genocide is for the perpetrator to deny to the victim that genocide actual took place. while it is not necessary for me, personally, that Turkey admit it's history, it is important to many, many Armenians. It will never happen, but to me, that is so unimportant.

What is important is we survived, we thrive, and we remember. Yes Hye em!

K'nerek, shat morat'selem hyeren!

It's really true that if you don't use the language, you forget it! Nevertheless, not a day goes by that I don't think about my time in Armenia with Armenians. My two years there were very challenging and frustrating, but rewarding. Armenia is a fascinating place.

I would like to visit Armenia again. When I got there in 1995, it was truly a hard place to be. By the time I left in 1997, things were definitely improving, at least in Yerevan. My husband is in the Army and recently served in Germany. Some of his colleagues traveled to Armenia for their work. It sounds like Armenia has gotten downright cushy, at least compared to how it was when I lived there. Of course, at that time, there were very few westerners. I was posted in Yerevan and was shocked to find out that a lot of people knew who I was, just because there were so few foreigners there back then!

I'm kind of curious about Azerbaijan and Georgia, too... I did go through Georgia, but didn't spend much time there.

The countryside in Azerbaijan is a bit tough to live in. They don't trust foreigners and live in very impoverished conditions. With that being said, once they trust you (which may never happen), they are incredibly nice people with incredibly backwards customs.

However, there are some amazingly beautiful parts of their countryside. I LOVED the mountains in Azerbaijan. Went hiking all of the time.

The capitol, Baku, is obviously very different. They have oil running through there, and obviously there are a lot of companies like BP who have people working there. I lived in Baku for about a year after my PC service and was amazed at how many westerners actually live there. It was a fun time.

Georgia is largely the same. Tbilisi is modern, beautiful, western friendly city. I've travelled a lot and it is easily on my top 5 most favorite cities in the world. The countryside though is almost exactly the same as Azerbaijan. It is beautiful, rugged, and full of people who act just like Azeris (and a significant amount of Azeri people as well, since Georgia took a lot of Azeri land a long time ago).

Georgia is Christian, Azerbaijan is Islamic, but they act the same. I'm guessing that their respective cultures are more influenced by the former Soviet Union and by their common Caucasian heritage than by any serious religious background.

Sorry for the long post, as you know, it is easy to get excited about this region :)

Oh yeah, I totally agree with the influence of the Soviets vs. the influence of religion. I think most of the people in that region identify with religions strictly in a cultural way. Armenia was the first country to embrace Christianity and they're very proud of that heritage, but it's not like most people go to church. Of course, if you do go, you have to be careful how you dress and behave, lest some old granny come over and chastise you!

Armenian people are very warm and friendly and extremely talented, particularly in the arts. I'm a singer, so I found my musical leanings very well regarded there. I used to go to jazz clubs in Yerevan and sing a lot. And it was easy to find beautiful art in Yerevan, dirt cheap. Unfortunately, I was very broke during the time I lived there. I'd love to go back and hit the vernisage for some carpets and jewelry.

It's a pity the people in that region have such a long history of fighting with each other.

On another note about Georgia, I spent a lot of time with an Azeri Imam in Tbilisi talking about his take on the war. He introduced me to Azeris and Armenians who lived side by side and were basically family. That was one of my favorite memories from there.

I guess once you cross the borders, the propaganda, from either side, doesn't exist.

Armenian/Azeri art is quite beautiful. When I was teaching in Baku, I found out that my cleaning lady was an Armenian from NK. She described how she had a very successful rug business there, and that both Azeris and Armenians worked with her. Both sides have claim to it because both cultures used to live side by side in relative harmony. Sadly, when the war started, she had to go to Azerbaijan instead of back to Yerevan with her family. It was sad to see how someone could go from being a very rich exporter of carpets and rugs to being an impoverished lady cut off from her homeland.

Both sides are having to live with the terrible consequences. It is a horrible situation from both sides that for some reason is still going on.

I never knew about this in history. It's tragic how we ignore the suffering of others because of politics and money.