I just got a newsletter from my son's school that reminded me what a strange corner of the world we live in (Utah County). In it was an announcement for the upcoming prom. Right after the phrase "dress is formal", and in italicized letters to offset it from the rest of the notice, came these sentences:

"Please make sure your Prom attire is modest – no sleeveless dresses, etc. If you have questions about appropriate Prom attire, please see Mr. XXX or Ms. YYY."

In whose mind, other than those conditioned by the cult, would wearing a dress that allowed your arms to be seen be considered immodest? In the entire rest of the world, ALL prom dresses are sleeveless. In fact, I googled "prom dress" and could not find ANY with sleeves. And that includes those from Dillards, etc. So, basically they're telling the female students in that school that they can't do anything approaching normal, and that they're bad if they even want to try to be fashionable. What kind of a message is that? You might expect that sort of skewed sense of modesty coming from a church that is run by grumpy old men like Monson and Packard, but you don't expect to see it in more public places, like schools. I know I should expect this where I live, but I was still surprised to read it.

I don't think my son is even going to prom, and I my daughter is in college now and hopefully beyond this stuff, so this isn't really my battle to fight. Just thought I'd come here and blow off a little steam.

Why is this such a big deal now? It wasn't when I was in high school. I think strapless was forbiden but I don't know anyone who wore sleeves and that included the children of high church officials.

the word 'modest' is such a crock

a nudist can be 'modest' wearing nothing but a smile

a person can be 'immodest' dressed in a burqa

<not that I'm suggesting either would be welcomed at a US high school prom..... though I suspect the burqa would be more welcomed than someone wearing their birthday suit>

"a nudist can be 'modest' wearing nothing but a smile"

I remember my roommate at Ricks college getting out of the shower and drying herself off. I couldn't leave the bathroom (there were six of us and one bathroom talk about sharing!!)
I can't remember why I couldn't leave, but I just concentrated on what I was doing and my back to her. She apologized for being undressed, but I turned to her and told her she was so modest you wouldn't really notice that she was naked because her spirit was so kindly. As I spoke the words I realized there were people in the world who were modest no matter what... .It was not how much skin was showing.... it was inside the person...

Just like someone might "commit adultery" but have not the soul of adultery..... like the good soul who said " my first spouse and I never divorced after college we just moved out and away from each other.... then when I met my next spouse fourteen years later we fell in love and then into bed.... then they had to find the former spouse to make the divorce official so they could get married and the church was punishing them for 'adultery' which really was more like swept off your feet fornication."

Too much black and white thinking in the TSCC. we've all seen kids who were dressed in beautiful clothes that were really being slutty in side. The lovely girls of PI from Revenge of the Nerds come to mind..... beautiful long formals with butterfly sleeves in sky blue inviting the new Nerd frat house to socialize with them and being completely insincere. They could have stepped off the Laurence Welk show, but they were busy boinking their boyfriends.....

Where in Utah we must not wear sleeveless dresses!!!!!!

There are drawbacks to strapless dresses however::::::

My daughter about four years ago, she and her friends drove to a friends house where they all donned their formals, did each others hair, checked each others makeup and then got into the car to go meet up with their dates. On the way when they pulled up to a stop light, my daughter talked her pretty slim blonde friend to 'jump out of the cake' as it were by coming up through the sun roof of the car with her arms up in a cheer leader "ta da" type gesture. Her friend stood up through the sunroof raised her arms and felt a draft. Her dress had stayed behind her!!! She didn't mean to 'flash' the people waiting at the stop light!! Her strapless dress just stayed behind when she stood up!

I don't agree.

I think in the quest away from black and white thinking, I feel some of us ex mos lose our common sense. I don't think a nudist is modest because their "spirit" is modest (?).

Or that one poster who thought it was totally normal to skinny dip with her dad. Um no. My parents were very open about discussing sex and sensitive topics like that but they would never cross that boundary. I'm also a parent and would never skinny dip with my children.

The church blows the whole modesty thing way out of proportion. It is a means to control the YW. There is nothing wrong with sleeveless clothing. It is about self-respect, wearing clothes that fit and are right for your body type.

There are plenty of ladies at church who I would consider immodest. Sure they have a cap sleeve and the skirt falls barely below the knee. But what about the huge fake boobs in the skin tight top, tons of make-up, tons of botox, plastic surgery (usually financed because they can't afford it). Is that a modest image? In my opinion, no.

The church totally misses the point on modesty. It's about self-respect and has nothing to do with sleeves.

And by the way, I was a teen in the 90s in a predominantly LDS area and none of the Mormon girls wore prom dresses with sleeves. I don't understand what the big deal is now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2011 12:40PM by goldenrule.

We live in a very conservative farming community. Not one girl wore a dress that would have met that requirement...not one!!!!

How in the h@ll can they get away with imposing their religious standards on all of the students? I grew up in Utah county in the late 80's and many of the girls wore sleeveless dresses to prom. This tells me that the mormons are becoming more radical...a bad thing imo. This is beyond ridiculous.

I think your son could look quite stunning in a sleeveless prom dress, I don't know what they are worried about ;)

He and his friends should look into some nice formal kilts, commando, of course.

EssexExMo:

I know/agree; been naturist/nudist since about age 14...!

take care, Stay Bare!

Of course it's hard to find "modest" dresses at Dillards or Macys. Sleeves went out of style in the 80's. That is...the 1880's. Mo mom's home make their daughter's modest dresses so I hear.

WHEN DID THE UPPER ARM BECOME AN EROGENOUS ZONE?

As soon as they figured out you could forcibly cover one up. Like Victorians and piano legs. The prohibition itself eroticizes it. Grrrrr....

Wow, how is this permissable in a public high school? The majority of high schools allow not only sleeveless but strapless dresses. Hell, at my proms in high school, many of the girls had their dresses fashioned after lil kim (lots of arm, belly, and leg showing).

Besides, most dresses nowadays just do not fit the mormon definition of "modest." Nearly all are sleeveless, if not strapless, so finding one to fit this narrow definition would be tough, and especially aggravating if one was not mormon.

I went to prom with my husband (we were high school sweethearts). His mom actually did want him to talk to me about their church's definition of modesty. He took offense to this as we didn't live anywhere near Utah (Georgia actually) and refused. I wore a dress with spaghetti straps and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that it was one of the more conservative dresses there. And we were still all over each other so I know it doesn't make a difference :)

'Modesty' is a Red Herring in Morland;
but, if has LOTS of Company...

Even recent articles in the Friend encourage clothing for small children and babies to cover the garment areas.

It seems to me that when it becomes that extreme, you are fetishizing the modesty.

That would explain those Babycenter threads about babies not being allowed to wear sleeveless dresses.

I work at a middle school (Grade 6-8). Recently, all 8th graders were shown video of last year's 8th grade dance so they would know what "semi-formal" meant for the upcoming 8th grade graduation dance.

There were pictures of most of the attendees, about three girls had strapless dresses with dumb looking short sleeve t-shirts under them. They were all Mormon of course. A few other girls, who I know to be Mormons from my mo days had cute shrug type sweaters over their dresses, some others had cute dressy cardigan sweaters. So, there are ways to modify a strapless/sleveless dress to make it "modest". Some methods just look way better than others.

Also, I recently attended a formal wedding. The bride was an inactive mo with a stunning sleeveles gown. Several of her TBM relatives had strappy formal dresses with t-shirts under them, it looked so silly - one was 40 years old. By the way, I wore a snazzy sleveless dress with "modestly" wide straps (big enough to fully cover my bra). I got lots of compliments!

and ran across this person's sister and wondered if she's still Mormon ... yep yeppity yep! In one of her family photos, her daughter who looks about 13 is wearing a spaghetti strap dress that appears to be covered with sequins and would look ridiculous even without the little T-shirt she had under it.

Ugh, poor kid.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2011 01:18AM by munchybotaz.

I had to abide by Mormon standards of modesty in high school, but I somehow managed to make it work. In fact, nevermo friends sometimes told me that my formal wear was the most classy-looking out of everyone's.

That said, it is really ridiculous to enforce those kinds of rules at a public high school prom.

I'm reminded of a story I heard in YW one time that irritated me. Our YW leader talked about how she was asked out to a dance during her college days. The guy was a RM she'd admired from afar, and she was thrilled he'd actually asked her out. She didn't have much in the way of formal wear, though, and couldn't afford to buy a nice dress. A nevermo friend of hers let her borrow a dress. It wasn't sleeveless, but it exposed a lot of her back, apparently. Anyway, she wore this dress, and, according to her, when the RM put his hand on her back as a friendly gesture, he pulled away as though he'd been burned the second he touched her skin. He acted awkward the rest of the night, and, with tears in her eyes, she told us how the RM never bothered talking to her again.

It was supposed to be a lesson about staying worthy for out future husbands, but I just sat there and wondered why I'd want to be married to someone so shallow.

Can someone give me a link to a photo with one of these t-shirts under a dress? I've never seen one but I can't fathom they'd look as hideous as I'm imagining. Can they?

munchybotaz@yahoo.com

and tank tops, as long as the tank top covered their bra straps. I never had a problem with the length of their skirts.

However, at YW Camp, my oldest daughter got in trouble for wearing a sleeveless, cotton, woven shirt. I said, "Are you kidding me? You guys said 'No Tank Tops!'" "No," they said (arms folded) we mean no sleaves at all."

So, my standards of modesty didn't match with the oh so pious Camping Molly Mormons.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2011 11:18PM by wine country girl.

This reminds me of when I went to prom with a group of my LDS friends back in 2007. None of us wore strapless dresses, but Kalie's was sleeveless. She wore a little black cardigan over it, which made a beautiful white dress, beaded with black, look incredibly frumpy. The most awkward thing, however? Kalie squatting down in front of us to check that we could not see down the front of her dress because her date, Jordan, was a foot tallr than her. When she found out that we could, she got us get SAFETY PINS and safety pin the bodice of the dress back on the sides so that it fully covered her little bit of bosom better. I felt like screaming-it was so ridiculous.

Just saying ...



I agree with above, measuring modesty by the inch is a crock.

Like I posted months ago, a friends daughter who attends BYUI posted pictures of a Halloween party where the girls wore Disney Princess costumes with tee shirts under. They looked hideous. There's modest and then there's just silly/dumb.

but hey! God knows better so we're born modest, innocent and naked.

Silly little cult.

Briggy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2011 09:58AM by brigantia.

modest (ˈmɒdɪst)

— adj
1. having or expressing a humble opinion of oneself or one's accomplishments or abilities
2. reserved or shy: modest behaviour
3. not ostentatious or pretentious
4. not extreme or excessive; moderate
5. decorous or decent

I see nothing about sleeves. I also think that number 3 pretty much excludes Mormons from modesty in general, while 1 and 4 will take out tbm's and 2 is not a good trait for mishies.

It makes me wonder if the Mormon church heirarchy is mentally reverting to the 50's and the conservative side of the 60's and 70's because that time felt safe to them. Isn't it referred to as "the golden age of Mormonism"? Isn't that when the family oriented PR image first started to get legs? When the squeaky-clean Osmonds were the face of Mormonism to the outside world?

One thing for certain, it was long before the rise of the internet and along with that, the spread of the uncomfortable truths that are now omnipresent for both investigators and members alike.

Maybe the crackdown on modesty in clothing is a way for church authorities to retreat to that "safe place."

It's also a way to keep the women in line- "Don't show too much shoulder! Then you might become a *gasp* licked cupcake or even worse- a chewed up piece of gum!"

Women, even inside the church are getting less controllable to them. More women are working outside the home. Some are getting married later and choosing to have smaller families.

This reminds me of going to the ONLY dance I attended at BYU.
I purchased a long sleeved, very modest dress, but my mormonylicious roomies were worried my date would see down my dress when we danced. Oh noes!!!!! I giggled and said, "If it's that much of a problem, I have plenty of safety pins."

Might as well wear a damn burqa!

My daughter was not active mormon. Her dresses (different dances) were always more "modest" than her mormon friends' dresses and we bought them at Dillards--but we didn't buy them for their modesty factor?!?! But because they looked good on her. My son's girlfriend--whose parents were REALLY TBM--she showed so much cleavage, I couldn't believe it coming from THAT FAMILY.

My good friend--she and her daughter would shop for prom dresses and buy TWO of the same dress so that she could modify the dress to make it modest.

My daughter is now TBM and she wears the little T-shirts under everything. She doesn't want her bra lines to show. This is the girl who wore bikinis in high school and likes to skinny dip. She has become quite frumpy if I do say so myself and she is a beautiful blue-eyed blonde. She covers up her beauty well.

A public high school should not be allowed to impose idiotic Mormon "standards" on others.

Moreover, recent newspaper articles tell us that Mormons will be a minority soon, even in UTah.

Mormons have been losing ground steadily in every county in Utah, soon they will make up less than 50% of the population.

...non-Mormons are required to dress like Mormons so the Mormons don't feel bad.

This is what is going to happen. The nonMo girls are going to wear a litte shawl or shrug that will pass muster at the door. Once they are inside, the shawl or shrug will come straight off. The kids know how to play the game, lol.

I remember reading in the paper the shawl or shrug had to be sewn to the garment. This was about 5 years ago.

(long loose stitches meant to hold things together only temporarily.)

One or two snips and it's off!

and I think that is really the gist of it. A girl who wears a typical 2011 prom dress is going to look SO much better than a girl who has to uglify the dress. I'll bet it was the mormon GIRLS--the high school girls, who complained enough to get that rule made, not the boys, not the parents. It's the ones whose parents made them dress ugly who don't want to be shown up.

Pretty soon the Mormons will be like the Amish - a throwback to centuries gone by.

Among other things, modesty means, to me:

Not letting your underwear show--and not peering at other people's underwear. Not talking about or asking questions about underwear in mixed company.

Not talking about sex in a closed room alone with an older married man.

Not wearing your clothes so tight that you can see your nipples.

Not openly flaunting yourself in a sexual manner, and not using aggressive, predatory sexual behavior.

Men and women wearing swim suits with adequate coverage and support.

No petting and dry-humping in public.

Go to the BYU campus sometime--the most immodest place on earth.