More specifically anyone who "served" a mission but also did real service within the military.

I'm curious as to what basic training was like - and also what, if any, similarities between basic training and the MTC were.

And please don't misunderstand my curiosity. I don't want this to sound like missions are somehow a replacement for military service because that's just stupid for all kinds of reasons.

I just want to know what the similarities are (if any) and where the differences are.

Thanks for your input.

AFROTC has a 4 or 6 week field training that is a rough equivalent to the basic training program.

Field training was emotionally and physically brutal. But everything was for a purpose. You are being constantly evaluated to see how you play with others, and how you will act under stress. In retrospect, there was a lot of things I thought were dumb and futile, that after having spent time on active duty, I think were very valuable. The whole people politics dynamic, is very much a part of life, and knowing how you behave is very important. I don't like playing the political game, and the evaluation officers picked that up and that lowered my "rating" and in retrospect they were right and completely justified in doing so.

The MTC was very restrictive, and we were being conditioned to do a job. I do find it interesting that rather than it being based on "reach inside yourself and find your best" it is based on "believe in your magic feather Dumbo, it will make you fly." It is really a pretty good achievement for all the men and women in the MTC to learn to restructure their mindset that will dictate their daily actions, and to memorize all the discussions (like we did in those days), and to learn how to work with people. But because of the framework, they are never able to take advantage of the self confidence boost that comes from the achievement. The failures experienced also seem to bring about shame and despair, rather than being a motivation to do better so as not to let yourself, or your team down. It is always god's success and your failure.

On a side note, people will be people. In the MTC, many of the guys used to turn on all of the hot water in the group shower so it would get nice and steamy. They would soap up the floor, and using towels, would propel naked bodies across the floor. And there were people like me who were too boring to participate.

After field training graduation, the cadet training officers brought alcohol on post, and someone found a bunch of long tables, that they lined up, with a mattress at the far end. Nude co-ed "carrier landings" was the game. And there were people like me who were too boring to participate.

"It's always god's success and your failure."

That's the most succinct description I've ever heard about it.

I do have a question for you though. Was "partying" allowed in the AFROTC? If not, did people still do it?

Also, for us in the MTC we would take the the toilet paper rolls and flush the end to watching it un-spool. 19 year old boys.

raptorjesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And please don't misunderstand my curiosity. I
> don't want this to sound like missions are somehow
> a replacement for military service because that's
> just stupid for all kinds of reasons.

But Romney thinks a mission is a good replacement for military service.

Romney claims he served a Mormon Mission instead of going to Vietnam.

Mitt's son Josh said " military service is just something none of us have done.”


What Mitt Romney said about never serving in the military......

"I was at college. Then I went off and served my church for two and a half years in a mission," Romney replies.

My DH never served a mission (he was a convert) but he did serve 22 years in the USAF

I think the funniest thing was how he seemed shocked that that statement was incredibly offensive to the rest of America.

TBM arrogance.

So far as I can tell, _no_ member of Mitt's Romney family has ever put on a uniform and served his country.


Makes me loathe Sir Plastic all the more.


3X (Vietnam vet)

you can't help but wonder if or if not Mr. Romney got preferential treatment or if his son(s) did while serving on missions. I've since wondered if the rich people's offspring going off into a mission received better or not.

Not that I'll be voting for Romney, but one tidbit from wikipedia on his bio does impress me that during his mission a car accident he was in killed the mission president's wife (not Romney's fault) and with the ensuing chaos effectively made him acting mission president at the age of 21.

Of course it doesn't compare to military service, but that is definitely a crucible experience that he rose too.

I was an enlisted sailor from '88-'94. Basic training for us was on the sucky side, but it's nothing like what the Marines and Army enlistees go through.

I think the worst part was sleep deprivation. When you're sleep deprived, everything else kind of goes to shit. I think it's easier to change people when they can't think clearly. They call it "breaking you down so we can build you up." Some branches do more breaking than others. Basically, they need people to follow orders without question. There's a bit of brainwashing going on in the Navy, they use fear to get you to conform, and they haze they hell out of you.

If you're lucky, that crap ends after bootcamp. Usually it doesn't. Speaking your mind, even in a respectful way, can get you written up in a heartbeat. The only reasons I received an honorable discharge were because I was good at my job and they needed me. People wanted to write me up all the time, but someone always stepped in and saved my ass. The one time I *was* written up, the forms were kept in a file cabinet in the office and hung over my head. *That* was comfortable.

Sorry -- I don't have 1st-hand knowledge of Mormon missions, but the Navy -- it's not just a job: It's an indenture.

ETA: Another thing to keep in mind is that if you're enlisted, you cannot quit. They *own* you. There are ways to get out, but they're not pleasant. If someone in your chain of command takes a strong dislike to you, suck it up. There's nothing you can do outright. But you can shred their shot record...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2011 06:33PM by Beth.

Beth - you rock! Just saying, have to give a shout out to a fellow sailor!!!

I was in US Navy 90 - 94. Three years on USS Schenectady and one year on Coronado Island Amphib Base.

What I remember of boot camp, was drilling team work and attention to detail in our head. Everything we did was to get us to focus on those two ideals. I can't say I was miserable or anything during my time in the Navy - bootcamp through the end of my four years. I enjoyed my rate - Boatswains Mate.

All of that flows into my career now - Merchant Mariner and you have to have attention to detail onboard a vessel for safety.

As for MTC - I didn't serve a mission. But, I know a few guys who did after their four years and they said the time in the military helped them during their mission, making it an easy two years. I wold think it was because they had life experience.

I was a corpsman in SD, Oak Knoll, and Pendleton. Did A school at Great Mistakes and B school in SD.

They made me a damned EPO in bootcamp. I hated that shit.

I *really* wanted to be an independent duty corpsman, but women weren't allowed to go to that school. I also couldn't go to Goat School (don't ask -- it's kind of gross, but I wanted to do it). Never got on the Mercy or the Comfort. Blargh. But in all honesty, after my son was born, and my ex was on a carrier all the damned time, I was happy to have shore duty. I would have probably gone out with the Marines at some point had I stayed in. That would have been cool; they like their docs.

My favorite chill out spot was the Point Loma sub base. They have a sea wall near the BOQ. Lovely.

Buds can kiss my ass.

Coronado was nice - nicest place in SanDog area.

I was on ship for 3 yrs. Did two WestPacs, first Bush debacle, and spent last year on shore doing a little bit od this and that.

Enjoyed my four years happy when I got out. I never would have gotten to be a captain had I stayed in...

... then turned us into lean, mean, fighting machines that have no fear.

And I was Air Force (1977-1983).

Don't know what they do at the MTC. We had to do shit like fold our underwear in a perfect 6" square. Might sound silly at face value, but do you want someone defending your country who can't fold his or her underwear in a perfect 6" square?

I know I don't!

Timothy

And, Timmy, Timmy, Timmy. The AF has the BEST bases and NO duty. When I learned about duty, I thought I was going to be paid overtime. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Paid Overtime - hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!! Funny stuff right there........

I'm pretty sure E-4 pay is consistent across the boards.

In the Army, Navy and Marines, the high-paid peeps stay behind the lines while the low-paid peeps do all the fightin' and dyin' and bleedin' and s**t.

In the AF, its the other way around.

Guess why I joined the AF!

Timothy

and we were in at the same time. Boo!

BUT I was able to get civilian certs for my Navy training. When I was in, the Navy was the only branch that had civilian certification for my B school. Otherwise, I would *still be in*. Or maybe not. They always lose 2-3 people at sea.

Oh, I saw some sailors in blue fatigues. That's the dumbest shit EVER! If you fall in the drink, how are they going to find you?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2011 07:00PM by Beth.

I have to jump in on this one:

I went to Army basic training in 2000 and had a great time. It depends on your mindset, really - mine was "I can't believe I'm getting paid to do this!" Obstacle courses, marksmanship training, rappelling, throwing grenades, I loved it all. As a BYU student from a strict Mormon family, I didn't find the Army at all restrictive, but surprisingly liberating. The reality of military service is different, of course, but going through the training, I took it all as a game, and I loved playing soldier.
I went through the MTC in 2001, and amazingly, I was assigned a companion who had also served in the Army. We were the "Army sisters", and we had a lot of fun doing things like push-up contests with the Elders (I won). But even so, the MTC was boring and restrictive. It was all about obedience, down to the tiniest stupid detail. The Army doesn't even come close on the mind-control factor, they only care about accomplishing the mission. In the MTC, they want you to feel guilty if you don't use your time wisely by studying your scriptures while waiting in the ridiculously long lines to attend yet another boring meeting.

Enlisted reservist, went to basic training at Ft Jackson.

I was enlisted US Army from 64 thru 69. I was @ Ft Ord for basic in Nov 64. It was an experience I am glad I had. It was, as the other poster have said, brutal. I remember the live fire training the most. The soldier next to me got very confused with the xplosions and noises everywhere. They were using tracer machine gun fire over our heads, and he got up on his knees. He got knocked flat. He wasn't hurt, but his helmet had a small crease right across the top afterward. It was 18 hrs a day, six days a week, and one of the toughest things I have ever gone through. I am glad I did, but it was brutal. I never served a mission, but I don't think they had grenade training or live fire.

They still did the live fire training in 2000, but I think they set the machine gun higher, so it wouldn't actually hit you if you stood up. It does make a difference when you went to basic, as I've heard it was much harder back when you went through.

The biggest difference to me is the guilt. In Army basic training, if you make a mistake, you do some push-ups and you move on. In the MTC, you spend hours agonizing over whether you are worthy enough and whether your "sins" from years ago have been sufficiently repented of. The military only controls you physically, but the Mormon religion wants to control your mind and soul.

that's sad. it reminds me of once while still investigating the LDS faith, one of the missionaries stated that someone canceling after committing that the mp blames them and states they aren't doing their job. a "job" you do not even get compensated for. Volunteerism is awesome and I've done a little pro-bono work in past (not much though) but @ least it was appreciated, not expected. Still volunteer some @local pet shelter. Don't get chewed if I'm not perfect, though.

..never served in the military, but my 19 year old son is in the Marine corp. (10 months now). I've heard all about his experience from him. There is absolutely no comparison between the cult MTC (or serving in the field) and the Marines.

For instance, my son just completed a rigorous 3 week stay in the mountains for his "cold weather training." I don't want to described their intense physical, emotional, and mental training, but their nights were all single digits and it was extremely rigorous. The whole experience is nothing like the MTC.

There's just no comparison. I doubt a mormon could function normally in a Marine unit. He'd be looked upon as strange for sure.

I've also heard that they can only "speak" to their moms 2 times a year. Even though, I can say they do e-mail quite frequently. In the military(which I know is of no comparison) They do get to speak w/loved ones as well as take furloughs and go home. The missionaries don't see a loved one for two years.

To compare a mission to military service is ridiculous. I did not serve a mission. I am, however, serving overseas right now. I am a husband and father. It is one thing not to see "mommy", "daddy", "little brother", or "little sister" for 2-years. Instead we are putting our county before our own children.

Missionaries that cry about not being able to see their families for 2-years are pathetic. I am on a year long combat deployment. I'm not writing this to solicit sympathy only to set the record straight. Mormons are damn liars and cry babies. I will never forgive my parents for what they did to our family in the name of their religion. Please don't cheapen the real SACRIFICES that servicemen and servicewomen make by comparing them to a sniveling 19-year-old or 21-year-old's religious field trip.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2011 01:52AM by angryaaron.

I know you/y'all are sacrificing so very much for us. and hoping it's no offense, but, personally I feel as if y'all should come home. I would never compare it, i had an uncle who served in the Korean war yrs. ago. I've heard some of the happenings in which they endured while there.

+1 And may you be truly blessed by the god of your choice. Air Force, me and my dad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2011 04:27AM by roflmao.