We had a big blowup on Easter that forced me to finally make a statement (in writing) to my in-laws about where I stand when it comes to the church. That part, I don't mind so much...it was bound to happen sooner or later.

The part that is seriously disturbing me is that my little daughter was at the epicenter of this fuss. Her cousins have been being taught all about the WoW, and so her one cousin (slightly younger) has started making these statements at family gatherings about how bad alcohol is. My daughter asked me about it, and I told her what her grandparents believe, but also what I believe...and I've been open with her when she helps me in the kitchen about the cooking wine I use sometimes. My spouse and I drink sometimes, but not around our kids, so that didn't really come up. Also, I've been clear that it's something for adults, not kids.

So on Easter Sunday we're all eating at the in-law's house(same location as the cousin's declarations the week before...which is what I think brought it to mind), and in a lull in the conversation, my daughter pipes up with, "A little bit of alcohol is ok."

Massive drama ensues...FIL raises his voice to insist that NO! It is never ok...which leads to my daughter hiding under the table in tears.

Trying to calm her down, MIL takes her into the other room, and I follow. At this point, MIL tells her that she can drink alcohol when she's a grownup if she wants to, but she can't get married in the temple (something MIL is always saying is the only way to get married), and that she won't be with her family when she dies.

5 year old is now hysterical. Blame going everywhere. I'm in the doghouse, because the first words out of her mouth were "but mama said...", not to mention being furious at my in-laws for terrifying her like that. All sorts of accusations being lodged at us, the parents. Took 30 minutes to mostly calm everyone down, and still dealing with the aftermath.

I am dealing with the grownups in this...what I don't know how to do is explain to a child this young that her grandparents don't believe the same things her parents do (especially when our beliefs are also different from each other). We lived in their home for two years, and so my daughter is very close to my MIL, and I don't want to damage that if I can, even though she and I disagree. I just don't know how to field this one.

I think a five year old is plenty old enough to understand that Mommy believes something different than Grandma and Grandpa. It is okay to have different opinions, that does not mean one is wrong in this case as far as wine goes.

When I first had my son, I was very uncomfortable with Mr. Piper having a beer in front of the kids, but I have since realized that there is no harm in being an example of responsible drinking to the kids. We explain that it is only for adults and that kids will get sick if they drink wine.

It is absolutely inappropriate for Grandma and Grandpa to talk to your child like that in my opinion. It is not fair to your child to be caught in the middle, and I think it is worth having an adult conversation with Grandma and Grandpa about it. They are entitled to their beliefs, as are you, but your kid will NOT be in the middle of it. You are the parents and what you say goes in the raising of your child.

MoLeaders INSIST on uniformity of Actions and Thoughts.

Uniformity is THE ONLY way they can Govern / CONTROL the saints (Hadn't you heard?)

It's a sorry, sorry lot.

Wow, what a tough spot.

First, you need to establish some boundaries with your ILs about how they can't raise their voices to their grandchild, and how they are scaring her with the yelling and threats of not being with family after she dies. Say you respect their opinions and feelings, but ask the same in return, and say that you won't tolerate them lecturing your kids on the WoW or temple marriage. If they start to do it, warn them to stop, and if they don't, get up and leave. Hopefully after one or two times, they realize you are serious and let it drop.

We still have most of our family active in the church, but the kids see my husband drink a bit. We've explained to our children that some people (like the LDS church) believe that alcohol isn't healthy. We've told them that WE believe that it's ok in small to moderate amounts. We've talked about some of the heart benefits to a glass of wine a day, etc. We explained that not everyone agrees with this though, and sometimes it's better to agree to disagree.

With our small children, we started out by asking what their favorite colors were. Of course, being a boy and a girl, they had different favorites. We asked if the fact that they had different opinions made the other person's choice WRONG. I asked them to imagine if they got a box of crayons, and it was just 10 crayons of that same favorite color. How fun and easy would it be to color a picture with just one color?

They thought it was ok to have different favorite colors, and all colors added value to the whole picture. They realized that it's ok to have different opinions, and that having different opinions can make things more interesting. We also discussed how some people are so convinced that they're right, they don't realize other people can be right too, and that getting in a big fight with them is just not worth it.

Read her the passage in the new testament where Jesus turned water into wine so they could all drink it at the wedding. You can also tell her Joseph smith drank alcohol all the way up to the day he died...

It would be a good idea to explain that different people believe different things, and find the main important things you and inlaws believe together...and explain that the differences are in things that are less important.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2011 10:02PM by lostmystic.

Explain to your daughter that she no longer has to go visit those mean people.

Explain to the mean people that a 5 year old doesn't understand when grown ups disagree...so they no longer have access.

This is exactly why my kids spent 11 of their 15 years not knowing my wife's family. My wife is awesome, and made a huge decision not to let her parents have this type of influence on our kids. She rocks!

I think she is old enough to get it.I grew up in a house where my dad was a nominal Catholic, my grandma was a believing Catholic and my mother a believing Mormon. I knew from as far back as I remember that they had different beliefs. I would tell your daughter that you don't believe the same things as grandma and why.Find out what upset her and reassure her. If you believe in an afterlife, tell her that she will be with her family and that temple marriage isn't all that it is cracked up to be. Maybe you could show her a little of the royal wedding and how pretty it was and then point out that she would miss all that if she did go to the temple. Most little girls lofve playing bride. Then tell her that she needs to repect their beliefs and not talk about alcohol, the temple and other things that will upset them. Then tell the adults the same thing.Let them know that your daughter was very upset and that you will not tolerate it. Let both of them understand that good people can disagree.If they continue to behave this way, I would limit contact. Getting up and leaving when this kind of behavior occurs might work.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2011 10:10PM by bona dea.

Holy crap- so nice of your MIL to tell a 5 yr old that if you drink alcohol you won't be w/ your family when you die. really nice mind****...

I've read your story but I can't recall all the details- where does DH stand on the church? is he active, jack-mo, exmo? How does he feel about how his parents acted at Easter dinner?


if DD is worried about not being w/ family after death, you could tell her that a loving God wouldn't keep loved ones apart. I think that's something she can understand at this age.

I think DH & you need to set boundaries with your in-laws as to what is acceptable to discuss w/ DD. That will probably be a difficult conversation to have but you are her parents and if they are resistant respecting your wishes, make clear that will result in them seeing granddaughter less. Also make clear that is not an outcome you and DH desire.

If she is close to her grandparents & spends a lot of time with them, they will likely try to influence her about the church because they are active members.

You don't want them telling DD that what Mommy & Daddy do is evil or will get them sent to Hell/Outer Darkness/whatever that crap is.

Good luck.

We moved out of my in-law's last fall, and got our own little place in the same town. We promptly went inactive.

DH is torn right now. He no longer believes in the church, but he hates making waves. MIL old, and has massive health problems...I honestly doubt she'll be around for more then two more years, the way things are going. Until this happened, DH had been hoping to "lay low" until after she passed, especially since he would be the third of their four children to leave the church.

In the letter I had DH take them after this, I outlined in detail how my beliefs differ from the church, including information about how arbitrary and politically-oriented the modern use of the WoW is. I also told them that they can talk about their beliefs so long as they recognize that I am educating my kids about a great number of belief systems, and won't tolerate the "one true church" thing...they can express their personal opinion, only. I also asked them to please allow me to worship according to "the dictates of my own conscience".

MIL told me she was hurt that I though that she wouldn't respect my beliefs. Since then, she's tried to pretend nothing happened.

My parents are very abusive, and out of the picture entirely. They have had no contact with my kids for the better part of two years, and minimal contact before that.

I'd hate to see my children loose their extended family entirely. That happened for both me and my husband due to family drama...and it's hard, especially if the parents are driving a wedge or demonizing the grandparents. I'd much rather handle this as gracefully as possible, and focus on building up my daughter, rather then badmouthing the in-laws.

I wouldn't worry about it accept to give your daughter lots of love and let her know how important she is to you. Since I have discovered the lies of this church, I have started to drink again. I won't do it around my kids though. Eventually, children grow older and their minds develop and you can then introduce them to what you know and feel about these things.

You see, the morgbots think anything unholy is like a pleague and that ppl have no intelligence but that they are weak to temptations. I used to think this way. The reality is that we all have a brain and can decide intelligently what is true and what is false. You in laws are all caught up in the voodoo that doesn't exist.

Thank you very much.

I've been trying toward a lot of what you've suggested about reassuring my daughter that she's ok. I suppose I'm just not very confident about it.

It's a rough spot we're in, better then when we were living with them, but I am very hopeful that we can move away from such a Mormon dominated area, and get my husband another good job.

I'm in shock at what your MIL said to your daughter, that really is emotional manipulation at its finest. I'm sorry your daughter got caught in the middle.

It's frustrating that we try and teach our children to be tolerant and accepting of others beliefs, but this tolerance and acceptance just isn't given by many TBMs. It's very confusing for young children who are forming their worldview. We teach them that certain behaviour isn't acceptable, and then they see adults that they love displaying that behaviour.

I don't think there are any easy answers, I did a great job indoctrinating my 5 year old daughter before I saw the light and left a few months ago, she gets really upset when she sees me having coffee or wine. It's hard to reverse the damage. I think we just have to keep trying and hope for the best.

My own kids are in a similar boat. They love visiting cousins (who are all tbm) but I've told them many many times about things the cousins believe but we don't.

I agree that a five year old - especially one who is aware enough that her statements at the dinner table matter - is old enough to understand that adults can have different beliefs and still get along. Don't underestimate your child's emotional and spiritual maturity - she sounds very bright.

When my own daughter was six, my mother asked her what she did at church that morning. My daughter said something to the effect of "We don't go to that church anymore. Mom says she doesn't agree with what they teach". So, that's how my very tbm family discovered my apostasy. Out of the mouths of babes.......

I'll tell you what, though, my parents are so worried about being "cut off" from my kids if they don't respect our boundaries that they are very egalitarian about communicating their beliefs. My children are being taught to be respectful of their extended family's beliefs as well.

I can't believe your MIL would say that to a 5 y.o. Read my rant in the thread entitled "temple marriage" but the whole concept is that what fucks the church's donkey for me. (sorry for the swear)

I worry about this with my now 2-year-old granddaughter. My daughter-in-law is completely uninterested in the church and I don't think that's going to change. But her family is extremely TBM--her father is a bishop. Often on the weekends either other grandma or I keep my granddaughter overnight and take her to church on Sunday. My son and DIL love that, it gives them a break. And they laugh that if one grandma takes her to the Mormon church and the other takes her to the Unitarian church, they'll just end up with a good Methodist.

However, I know I'm way less concerned about her going to the Mormon church than the other grandma is about me taking her to the UU church. I don't see a problem with her learning that different people believe different things and when she's older, she can make her own choices. But other grandma is already on the attack, and I'm afraid she's going to scare the poor little girl with things like she won't be with her family in heaven or her mommy and daddy are going to hell for drinking (and unfortunately smoking, too).

So I've also enjoyed the comments on this thread. Not sure what I can do from my vantage point. Grandpa Bishop just lost his job last week--which was very unexpected, so they might end up having to move from the area. I guess that would give me more of an advantage, but I know that little girl loves both her grandmas and part of me would hate to see that happen.

A five year old can understand what being scared is, so you can tell her Grandma is just scared her family won't be in heaven together. Compare it with some time when she was scared and you reassured her. Some things we are scared of are not real.

Tell her you love her and make wavy lines coming out of your hear to her heart. See, you can't see this love,but can you feel it when I hug you? Sure you can. Well, it's the love we have that keeps us together wherever we are. It's still there when I'm at work and you're at school, isn't it. Nothing can ever take away my love for you.

If she is smiling and happy when you've gone this far, get out a glass of wine and take a swallow. Make this fun--say, "Now, silly, I drank some alcohol. Do I still love you? Do you still love me? OF COURSE! Love is the strongest power there is (and if you are religious), throw in God's love here too. No matter what she would ever do, she could not lose your love or God's love, or Daddy's love.

What your MIL did was absolutely not respectful of you as the parent. You and only you have the right to explain the world, God and nature to your child. THIS IS YOUR CHILD, NOT THEIRS. Have a talk with your MIL and tell her that they traumatized your child and that you cannot allow that to happen. If she does not apologize immediately, tell her that you are going to take break from visiting so your child can heal the fears that the MIL created.

And stick to it--whatever time period you feel will not be too hard on your child. She's the important one here--using her like that, that is just cold. Then, to resume visits the MIL must agree that religious training is YOUR job and she is refer all such questions back to you. And by the way, don't answer any questions from them like, "Well, what are you teacher her about (blank)." None of their business, they have lost the right to be part of that conversation, because parents and grandparents have an unspoken agreement that neither one will deliberately hurt the child.

They broke that and there has to be consequences.

Anagrammy

Anagrammy, that just made me cry to read. Thank you...I think that she will understand that very well.

I'm honestly so grateful that so many of the people who responded to this understood the conflict...why I don't want to just cut things off. My kids love their grandparents, and it really didn't help things that earlier that same day, I had to explain to my daughter that she couldn't call her other grandparents to wish them Happy Easter.

I've had feedback from my letter since the OP, btw...MIL said that she was "hurt" that I would assume that they wouldn't respect my beliefs...and then went on to list a bunch of ways that she feels I'm making a mistake doing this to my children, particularly teaching them about other beliefs so young. Essentially that I should raise them Mormon, no matter what I, personally believe.

I let it wash over me...changed the subject. Very proud of how calm I was. That would not have been the case a year ago.

It made me chuckle, though, that anagrammy said she'd try to pin me down on what I planned to teach them. That's exactly what happened. Also got invited to church with them...since MIL's health is so bad, I told her that I'd go to sacrament meeting now and then, and take the kids with me (NOT letting them just take them), but that I knew she didn't always make it to church...and didn't want her feeling like she had to go on my account when she wasn't feeling good. Sure enough, phone call saturday afternoon, saying she just wasn't up to church.

Wow--that was wonderful. Did you feel the shift in power inside of you? That's what enables you to feel calm. You are the one operating in the Real World. They are the ones in Fantasy Land. You have the power of truth AND love, so you manage them, not the other way round.

I'm proud of you, you go girl! Isn't it wonderful to own your own life?

Anagrammy

It's interesting how your MIL said she was hurt that you "assumed" she wouldn't respect your beliefs, then immediately started disrespecting your beliefs. It's insane how morgbots think that being rude and breaking boundaries are done out of respect.

So did you get a chance to talk to your daughter at all about all of this?

@ anagrammy: again you have proved your wisdom!

@ anagrammy,

Yes! I did feel that shift, and it blew me away. I keep having a stanza from the Tao Te Ching roll over and over in my mind these past couple of days. It fits the way I'm coming to feel about this very well:

"But I have heard that he who is skilful in managing the life entrusted to him for a time travels on the land without having to shun rhinoceros or tiger, and enters a host without having to avoid buff coat or sharp weapon. The rhinoceros finds no place in him into which to thrust its horn, nor the tiger a place in which to fix its claws, nor the weapon a place to admit its point. And for what reason? Because there is in him no place of death." --Lao-tse (Tao Te Ching, chapter 50, para. 4)

That's especially surprising to me since I've been having frequent panic attacks these past couple of weeks, not knowing whether my parents would try to get in touch with me when they bring my brother up to BYUI. I want to be calm no matter what happens. Not seeing red, not ready to run away with my heart fluttering in my chest. Just...calm.

Bishop showed at my door the other night...that needs it's own thread, though...same thing happened. Calm and quiet.

@ Lost Mystic,

Yep, the irony wasn't lost on me either. I think that actually helped me not freak out...for the first time it was slightly humorous instead of threatening. Here are these lovely, silly people, TERRIFIED that I will teach my daughter something else while she's young enough that it means their conditioning and fear won't "take".

My experience has always been that if I am firm with my family about my beliefs they respect me a lot more. I don't let them push me around, and the ball is always in their court since they are suppose to be the religious and tolerant ones who believe in Jesus H Christ.

Flipping the whole religious tolerance thing around on people always helps me, and basically explaining that if they can't respect me for who I am then the can take a freaking hike.

And when it comes to your kid, they simply need to chill the F--k out! Jesus Christ... I mean what's worse, cocacola or beer?

between the in-laws and your children. If they behave in that manner -- over riding your position as the parent, they need to be put in "time out" for awhile. They were acting like children with a five year old! Good Grief. It's ridiculous to treat a 5 year old like they did.

You do not have to allow them to upset a child until she is in tears and hiding under a table. That's just ridiculous.

You know how to be a Tiger Mother - go into protect mode and don't allow them to be around her for a good long time.

And tell them that their behavior yelling and chastising, and correcting the child won't ever be tolerated again. They are done with that nonsense.

I doubt the 5 year old wants to be around them anymore anyhow!!