Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
where does it say what official lds doctrine is?
"source X"
where does it say that "source X" is official doctrine?
"source Y"
where does it say that "source Y" is official doctrine?
"source Z"
ad infinitum or "it doesnt".
most people, when asked this question cite this source:
http://fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/What_is_Mormon_Doctrine.pdf
the problem is that michael ash isnt an official spokesman for the lds church so this article about what is official doctrine isnt official.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2011 05:42AM by Nick Humphrey.
"source X"
where does it say that "source X" is official doctrine?
"source Y"
where does it say that "source Y" is official doctrine?
"source Z"
ad infinitum or "it doesnt".
most people, when asked this question cite this source:
http://fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/What_is_Mormon_Doctrine.pdf
the problem is that michael ash isnt an official spokesman for the lds church so this article about what is official doctrine isnt official.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2011 05:42AM by Nick Humphrey.
someone then cited this source to me:
http://newsroom.lds.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine
my reply:
is everything on newsroom.lds.org official doctrine? if so, where does it say that? who says this "authorless" article is official doctrine? is everything on lds.org official doctrine? if so, where does it say that?
is everything in the scriptures official doctrine? what about polygamy? what about stoning your child if he doesnt obey you?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2011 08:04AM by Nick Humphrey.
http://newsroom.lds.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine
my reply:
is everything on newsroom.lds.org official doctrine? if so, where does it say that? who says this "authorless" article is official doctrine? is everything on lds.org official doctrine? if so, where does it say that?
is everything in the scriptures official doctrine? what about polygamy? what about stoning your child if he doesnt obey you?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2011 08:04AM by Nick Humphrey.
'The doctrines of the Church are found in the scriptures and the teachings of latter-day prophets and apostles.'
The above quotation is from the Church Handbook of Instruction.
I guess the term 'latter-day prophets' is open to interpretation - does it mean living now or does it mean all the prophets since Joseph Smith?
The handbook goes on to say:
'The Lord instructed, “The elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel” D&C48:12'
So, Officially, I guess there can be a difference between Doctrine (out of the mouths of the prophets) and Gospel (out of the scriptures).
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2011 07:45AM by Stumbling.
The above quotation is from the Church Handbook of Instruction.
I guess the term 'latter-day prophets' is open to interpretation - does it mean living now or does it mean all the prophets since Joseph Smith?
The handbook goes on to say:
'The Lord instructed, “The elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel” D&C48:12'
So, Officially, I guess there can be a difference between Doctrine (out of the mouths of the prophets) and Gospel (out of the scriptures).
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2011 07:45AM by Stumbling.
"Trying to figure out Mormon 'doctrine' is like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall."
Some guy in a SLTrib comment thread the other day did not like me pointing out that the Book of Mormon contains no Mormon "doctrine," and that you learn nothing new in the temple. We went back and forth for a couple of days, him getting more and more angry and finally calling me a "Judas" for revealing stuff about the temple in a public forum. He gave me a whole list of things you "learn" in the temple: Jesus is our savior, Jehovah created the world, Heavenly Father loves us. I pointed out that we learn these things not only in Sunday school, but in Sunday school in everyone else's church, too. It's freakin' amazing--frustratin', in fact. How is it that no one can see just how pointless it is?
Some guy in a SLTrib comment thread the other day did not like me pointing out that the Book of Mormon contains no Mormon "doctrine," and that you learn nothing new in the temple. We went back and forth for a couple of days, him getting more and more angry and finally calling me a "Judas" for revealing stuff about the temple in a public forum. He gave me a whole list of things you "learn" in the temple: Jesus is our savior, Jehovah created the world, Heavenly Father loves us. I pointed out that we learn these things not only in Sunday school, but in Sunday school in everyone else's church, too. It's freakin' amazing--frustratin', in fact. How is it that no one can see just how pointless it is?
...that the church we belonged to was way weirder than we'd suspected.
There is no official Mormon Doctrine. That way they can wiggle out of anything that becomes a problem.
when debating with an apologist, dont let the apologist set the rules of what is official doctrine or not. dont play by their rules. state something like: just so you know, i intend to take apostles and prophets of god at their word that what they say is official revelation from god when speaking in public or publicly publishing their teachings (independent of when the teachings were given--dead prophets and apostles count just as much as living), in addition to all "scriptures" in their original, "most perfect"/"directly revealed by god" versions--all changes to these sources will be disregarded. if the changes were purely spelling errors or dont change the meaning of the context then it wont matter anyways.
Ambiguity is the Key.
the Lack of Precision used to drive LDS engineering professional friends of mine bonkers, I really don't know How they tolerated it.
the Lack of Precision used to drive LDS engineering professional friends of mine bonkers, I really don't know How they tolerated it.
The only doctrine is to obey the people higher in the pyramid than you.
I find it interesting how the Apologists have a disclaimer that they are not founded by the LDS leadership and it does not represent the body of the church.
This is an obvious loop hole in case they stick their foots in their mouths. From my point of view, why doesn't the LDS church shut them down? Isn't it an apostate to defend or speak about polyandry and controversial and contradicting doctrine?
I think by this standard, the apologists should be excommunicated for apostacy. Kind of like the September 6.
Pleading the fifth is just another way of saying, "I am guilty and I do not want to self incriminate by speaking on my own behalf".
Think about it deeply for a second. God found it so important to reveal the everlasting covenant of plural marraige and yet it is now gone and its taboo to speak about it? Honestly, what made Joseph and the crew then so special that we are not intelligent enough to move forward in the learning of sacred and eternal principles today? All of the sudden, we take back a sacred principle, and we discipline anyone for mentioning it.
what a crock!
This is an obvious loop hole in case they stick their foots in their mouths. From my point of view, why doesn't the LDS church shut them down? Isn't it an apostate to defend or speak about polyandry and controversial and contradicting doctrine?
I think by this standard, the apologists should be excommunicated for apostacy. Kind of like the September 6.
Pleading the fifth is just another way of saying, "I am guilty and I do not want to self incriminate by speaking on my own behalf".
Think about it deeply for a second. God found it so important to reveal the everlasting covenant of plural marraige and yet it is now gone and its taboo to speak about it? Honestly, what made Joseph and the crew then so special that we are not intelligent enough to move forward in the learning of sacred and eternal principles today? All of the sudden, we take back a sacred principle, and we discipline anyone for mentioning it.
what a crock!
Here are a score of questions I have which basically can all be asked by filling-in-the blank of the following question template: "What is the official doctrine on _____?"
1. the theories that the Lamanites or Nephites mixed with Native Americans who were here before and/or after Shiz died
2. which Native American tribes are descendants of Father Lehi
3. how the Joseph Smith papyri was used for coming up with the Book of Abraham
4. the explanation for Joseph Smith's 1831 revelation authorizing polygamy
5. the explanation for Nauvoo polygamy while the D&C Article on Marriage was in-force and the laws of Illinois prohibited bigamy
6. why changes were made to the revelations in the Book of Commandments prior to D&C publication
7. why plural marriages were authorized post-Manifesto
8. what Brigham Young and others meant in their teachings on the condemnations that would come to the church/members if they gave up polygamy
9. what Brigham Young and others taught about the evils of monogamy
10. what Brigham Young and others taught about blood atonement
11. what Brigham Young and others taught about Adam being God
12. all the lengthy delays and other details on bringing about justice regarding the Mountain Meadow Massacre
13. the Kinderhook Plates and why it was included in the History of the Church series and other publications
14. the similarities between the Masonic ceremonies and the endowment as originally introduced by Joseph Smith
15. the changes to the temple endowment including the elimination of the 5 points of fellowship and the penalties
16. on why the church finances information is generally so secretive
17. why the church statistics information is generally so secretive
18. why the church handbook of instructions is not made publicly available
19. why certain information in church archives such as post-Manifesto polygamy are not released
20. the attitude that church members and leaders should have towards members who ask questions seeking to know the church's official doctrines
1. the theories that the Lamanites or Nephites mixed with Native Americans who were here before and/or after Shiz died
2. which Native American tribes are descendants of Father Lehi
3. how the Joseph Smith papyri was used for coming up with the Book of Abraham
4. the explanation for Joseph Smith's 1831 revelation authorizing polygamy
5. the explanation for Nauvoo polygamy while the D&C Article on Marriage was in-force and the laws of Illinois prohibited bigamy
6. why changes were made to the revelations in the Book of Commandments prior to D&C publication
7. why plural marriages were authorized post-Manifesto
8. what Brigham Young and others meant in their teachings on the condemnations that would come to the church/members if they gave up polygamy
9. what Brigham Young and others taught about the evils of monogamy
10. what Brigham Young and others taught about blood atonement
11. what Brigham Young and others taught about Adam being God
12. all the lengthy delays and other details on bringing about justice regarding the Mountain Meadow Massacre
13. the Kinderhook Plates and why it was included in the History of the Church series and other publications
14. the similarities between the Masonic ceremonies and the endowment as originally introduced by Joseph Smith
15. the changes to the temple endowment including the elimination of the 5 points of fellowship and the penalties
16. on why the church finances information is generally so secretive
17. why the church statistics information is generally so secretive
18. why the church handbook of instructions is not made publicly available
19. why certain information in church archives such as post-Manifesto polygamy are not released
20. the attitude that church members and leaders should have towards members who ask questions seeking to know the church's official doctrines
On #20 in my experiences the approach is to generally blame the questioner and just try to put them on guilt trips that they made certain covenants. For example when I presented my list of questions to a LDS bishop I never met in-person but only through email I was first reminded to "keep my covenants". I responded back that as a prerequisite to making my covenants that I never agreed to NOT ask questions and NOT have integrity and thus I wasn't under any obligation to abandon questioning/integrity. I explained that its important that the terms/conditions on all the unacceptable questions ought to be disclosed beforehand so I can review them & get them figured out before entering into covenants. Our long correspondence was basically analogous to running in a hamster wheel.
I've never seen where they put their "official doctrine" in writing on this question #20. And frankly I think our best approach on them is to hold their feet to the fire on this question. If I were to begin a new series of correspondence with any LDS leaders I'd start with this one to make sure I nail down the "official doctrine" on their attitude towards questioners. They'll never nail it down nor will they confirm that "blame the questioner" or "guilt trips because they made covenants" are official doctrine. And their failure to confirm these as "official doctrine" will pretty much shoot down any opportunity for them to try to effectively use these tactics on you.
I'm not holding my breath on question #20 getting any answer.
I've never seen where they put their "official doctrine" in writing on this question #20. And frankly I think our best approach on them is to hold their feet to the fire on this question. If I were to begin a new series of correspondence with any LDS leaders I'd start with this one to make sure I nail down the "official doctrine" on their attitude towards questioners. They'll never nail it down nor will they confirm that "blame the questioner" or "guilt trips because they made covenants" are official doctrine. And their failure to confirm these as "official doctrine" will pretty much shoot down any opportunity for them to try to effectively use these tactics on you.
I'm not holding my breath on question #20 getting any answer.
There are only 3 doctrines that I can identify
That jesus is real, alive and watching over us from Kolob or heaven or whatever (it isn't imoportant to your salvation so don't worry about it).
He put some people specialer than you in charge, and you better do what they say.
Send them as much of your money as you can possibly send (at least 10%) even if your children (or you) don't have shoes, medicine or food. Don't cheat the lord. Give them whats left over when you die because your children would squander it on worldly things.
That about it as far as hard doctrine. The rest is culture and changes too often to keep up.
That jesus is real, alive and watching over us from Kolob or heaven or whatever (it isn't imoportant to your salvation so don't worry about it).
He put some people specialer than you in charge, and you better do what they say.
Send them as much of your money as you can possibly send (at least 10%) even if your children (or you) don't have shoes, medicine or food. Don't cheat the lord. Give them whats left over when you die because your children would squander it on worldly things.
That about it as far as hard doctrine. The rest is culture and changes too often to keep up.
When dealing with contradicting official doctrines, remember this term.
compartmentaltardation: n. the act of dividing up one's cognitive dissonance into fragments until the world is reduced to a million retarded and inept pieces, that when reassembled form something akin to Picasso World.
The apologist loves compartmentaltardizing.
compartmentaltardation: n. the act of dividing up one's cognitive dissonance into fragments until the world is reduced to a million retarded and inept pieces, that when reassembled form something akin to Picasso World.
The apologist loves compartmentaltardizing.
"Follow the [current] prophet"
That's the only doctrine there is.
That's the only doctrine there is.
I read the whole thing, and what do I find? Behold, the "scholarly" Michael Ash using poor research techniques. Look at footnote 19, an unpublished work in his possession. I don't know where Mr. Ash received his education, but the UofU would frown upon such a practice.
I also love how the Aronnic Priesthood manual teaches that we should "follow the prophet."
http://lds.org/manual/aaronic-priesthood-manual-3/lesson-24-follow-the-prophet?lang=eng
At the same time, Mr. Ash writes that by having the Holy Spirit, the responsibility of deciding when a prophet speaks as a prophet is shifted to us. I don't think I need bring up the 14 fundamentals of following the prophet in addition. So what we have is a message telling us to blindly obey the "doctrine" of the prophets and GAs, all the while being held responsible to judge whether or not that "doctrine" is correct. And let's not forget about paying our 10% to those leaders so they can continue to spout their bollox and hold us accountable too.
I also love how the Aronnic Priesthood manual teaches that we should "follow the prophet."
http://lds.org/manual/aaronic-priesthood-manual-3/lesson-24-follow-the-prophet?lang=eng
At the same time, Mr. Ash writes that by having the Holy Spirit, the responsibility of deciding when a prophet speaks as a prophet is shifted to us. I don't think I need bring up the 14 fundamentals of following the prophet in addition. So what we have is a message telling us to blindly obey the "doctrine" of the prophets and GAs, all the while being held responsible to judge whether or not that "doctrine" is correct. And let's not forget about paying our 10% to those leaders so they can continue to spout their bollox and hold us accountable too.