I have so many questions! I am a non-practicing Catholic and have always been fascinated by Mormons (and other religions, as well).

The first question I would love answered is what is the perfect thing to try to discuss with missionaries, to freak them out?!
Like:
"Have Mormon astronomers discovered the location of Kolob?"

"What do you think about J. Smith marrying women who were still married to other men?"

"Just how many people DID the Mormons kill at Mountain Meadow?"

I'd love to hear from people who were out in the field.

The missionaries are very young, inexperienced victims of a manipulative cult. For the most part, they are nice, well-meaning young men. Why don't you go pick on someone your own size.

rt Wrote:
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> The missionaries are very young, inexperienced
> victims of a manipulative cult. For the most part,
> they are nice, well-meaning young men.
EXCEPT FOR THE not so rare ONEs, WHO ARE VICIOUS AMBITIOUS ABUSIVE BACK STABBING GA WANNABE @$$HOLES who need a good ass kicking!

> Why don't
> you go pick on someone your own size.

ppl who join the army often end up getting shot at so its best to make sure you really care about what you might take a bullet for & ruin your future for, and even more importantly how much your official cause really cares about you! SOmetimes its a hard lesson to learn, but usually the sooner the better, so WHY not go ahead, ask some hard questions & do the elders a favor and let them know how stupid the world see their abusive religion.

ISNT it the LDS church who says Missions are hard and Hard is good for ppl? so what are you whining about now ?



the elders went out to take shots at others religion, they need to learn what a real world two way street is.
IT aint like MORmON SUNDAY school or the GD MTC !


THAT'S WHY ! and I say that as an RM!

I have no sympathy for the arrogant little f**ks. 19 year olds who go about with the title of "Elder" firmly fixed to their no-nuthin' shirts need to be taken down a notch or two, particularly when they're presenting bulls**t to folks who actually have real-life knowledge and experience.

They think they're prepared. I say put 'em to the test. Dumb-a** mormons don't deserve special consideration just because they're dumb-a** mormons.

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2011 01:25PM by Timothy.

However, as a mother with a grown son, I try to treat the missionaries like I would have wanted my son treated if he had gotten involved in something like that. Firmly but with kindness. When the missionaries showed up at my door it was a nice hot summer's day. I gave them some ice water and told them why I'm not going to convert. I wasn't rude, I was honest, and I have no idea if I made a difference in their lives but I don't have to cringe when I look at myself in the mirror.

Personally, I think honesty and kindness is the best way to get ANYONE to consider their choices in life -- especially if it's the kindness of letting them make their own choices in belief and whatnot.

Two missionaries came to my door a few months ago, and I had a great peaceful (objective) discussion with them. I also try to treat the missionaries like I would have wanted my son treated. I used the occassion to give them some things to think about. I was there once, and I always appreciate a little kindness and hospitality. Those kids get caught up in the cult, family/peer pressure. A lot of them hate it and don't want to be there, but they trudge forward. I like your "Firmly but with kindness" approach.

"Personally, I think honesty and kindness is the best way to get ANYONE to consider their choices in life -- especially if it's the kindness of letting them make their own choices in belief and whatnot."

Yep' I agree wholeheartedly.

It's dishonest to the extreme to shelter missionaries from reality. Every person in their home has a right to treat unannounced salspeople with anything from extreme deference to rudeness. We don't "owe" missionaries or any religious zealot or salesperson anything that will "help" them. It's a free choice to give or not give special help to any adult at the door who is a stranger.

Most people would help if someone in an emergency situation. This isn't the case with missionaries. They're adults. They have stong bodies. And they have parents, friends, and a church backing them.

That's more than many of the people in their homes being disturbs by these guys. There are elderly, ill, overworked, disabled, worried and bereaved people who bravely face their own live challenges and ask nothing but to be left alone to stuggle on.

I have a real thang about unannounced solicitors. Round these parts, I am the king. As such, I've decreed that anyone who petitions the king's council must do so in advance. Those who fail to comply are at the mercy of the king's favor or wrath as the circumstances allow.

The missionary mentality is that whatever the king is engaged in pales in comparison to the glorious message they must deliver. As a result, they try to force themselves upon the king with little regard or respect for the king's wishes. Should a given solicitor petition the king's council while the king is, say, engaged in a little Football, Beer and BBQ action with his closest advisors, said solicitor will be politely asked to leave. Should said solicitor persist, however, he/she/they will be rudely escorted off the king's lands.

It does no good to placate. The last time the mishies dropped by, I was able to convince the elder elder to quit his mission. That was just prior to the 2001 ExMo conference. I've apparently been off-limits since. But that didn't prevent the EQ prez and a few other supposed higher-ups from dropping-by unannounced. The EQ prez did so during the annual Red-River Rivalry which the king, by decree, has made well known that that particular day belongs solely to the king who, by decree, is not to be disturbed under any circumstances.

Of course, the EQ prez didn't know that, but he didn't bother askin' neither. Instead, he demanded to know what my problem with the cult is and why I felt it necessary to cause an elder to quit his mission. He was rudely escorted to the curb and was told never to bother the king again under penalty of getting his a** kicked. Haven't seen the little s**t since.

Like it or not, a 19 year-old is an adult. Hell, I was a sergeant in the USAF when I was mormon missionary age. Think those boys have it rough? There's an old adage in my neck of the woods that says if you're gonna run with the big dogs, you gotta stop pissin' like a puppy. Think the mission field is tough? Wait till the real world gets a hold of 'em.

In the final analysis, I simply have more important things to do. Even if its cleaning my trash cans with my tongue.

And who sends his or her kid on a mission and expects the kid to be treated nice? ... You may treat the missionaries the way you want to be treated, but that ain't the way the kid's gonna be treated in the mission field.

Timothy



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2011 09:50AM by Timothy.

"Who gives a s**t?" You can quote me on that anytime! Timothy"

Who gives a s**t about the dumb-a** missionaries?

Parents who send them into the field obvioulsy don't.

Timothy

My response about treating them the way I'd hope someone would treat my own child (who never has and is highly unlikely ever to serve a mission) was more about what works for me than anything else. I am not an ill-bred prole and would NEVER try to tell the King how to handle gatecrashers. ;)

Queen Rebeckah ... I kinda like the sound of that!

Indeed, you are a forthright yet magnanimous queen!

I salute you!

Timothy

I agree..it isn't their fault they are out there..give em a break

stormy.
And they're usually wishing they were somewhere else

WHAT about the mock throat slashing & secret handshakes in the LDS temple ceremony?

WHAT does "Pay lay ale" mean?

IS health in the navel & marrow in the bones really that big of a deal ?

is it true that a lot of LDS apostles are closet gays? why do the LDS have so many gays and then fight so hard against the gay community?

I was able to sneak into the LDS temple ceremony with a friend one time, I did not know that much about it at the time, now I have heard that was a really bad thing to do,is it really that big of a deal?

modern missionaries don't know anything about the penalties, or "pay lay ale", so that's a waste of time.

the same problems that exist for kolobianism exist in every other religion, especially catholicism.

pot, meet kettle. kettle, this is pot.

why one superstitious person would want to poke fun at another superstitious person is beyond me.

"hey! your superstitions are SOOOOOOOO weird man... don't you think your god is an alien? hold on a second. I need to drink this wine and eat this wafer because some old man dressed in really flamboyant robes told me it will become the blood and body of christ INSIDE MY BODY. no, I don't practice cannibalism..."

chulotc is snarky Wrote:
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> modern missionaries don't know anything about the
> penalties, or "pay lay ale",

Well maybe its time they learned, epecially if they think they want to be salesman for the LDS Inc cult



>so that's a waste of
> time.

well it could nt be any bigger waste of time than doing baptism for the dead.... or being on an LDS mission

a few of them do learn, figure it out and leave,
and that isnt a waste of time.

a few of them get sick over the cognitive disonance, lose their way & go home. and when stories like that are heard its purely recreational !

Believe it or not, they DO talk about this stuff:
http://www.believeallthings.com/2508/kolob-sagittarius-star-cloud/

Anyway, if they are well-trained, they will "answer the question you SHOULD have asked." IOW, they deflect and try to change to the subject to happy-happy-joy-joy-the-boy-in-the-sacred-grove, all the while thinking that you are a catholic tool of Lucifer (another WTF subject about misinterpretation). :-)

A drive to enlighten people of lack of reason in their faith is a good one I think. But maybe you have greater competance toward the lack of reason within catholicism?

Like I said, I am a non-practicing Catholic. I was raised one and have some of the same problems many of you guys have, who were born into the Moron religion.

I have nothing against the missionaries. In fact I think that many of the ones I have seen seem very sweet. I guess I have some questions that I'd like answered and would love to see how they would react.

As far as superstitions, I would be the first to admit how 'colorful' Catholicism is, in that regard. In fact, that is one of the few things that I can still enjoy about the faith I was raised in.

Edited to say that I am a bit motivated to see if I can break the calm, reserved air of authority that many of the missionaries I see have. (I see missionaries fairly regularly- I work at a public library and they use the internet computers all the time)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2011 12:26PM by kmmerc.

Your comments show a lack of understanding of your own religion..but you want to freakout mormon missionaries, why would you want to do that..instead set up an appointment with the stake president...ah but he's not 19.

stormy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2011 08:32PM by stormy.

I'm thinking it's more of "They harass me, so I'll harass them" type of deal. I do the same thing myself when they (or JW's) ignore my "No Solicitation" sign at the door.

They're usually earnest but devious religious zealots. They lack knowledge about many important facts about their church and are trained to lie about the parts they do know.

If I read you are right, you are trying to illustrate the absurdities in Mormonism to the Elders.
Remember though, in their world view, the absurditities are not absurdities. The pieces all fit together. The absurdities are only such from outside the world view.
Imagine you have never heard the concept of sin. An act or belief is wrong because an invisible superbeing declared it wrong, not because there is something intrisically wrong with the act or belief.
If you have never thought in terms of Christianity, that is absurd.
So God had to torture and kill himself to appease himself, so he wouldn't have to torture everybody else for not believing in the right set of unjustified propositions.
Absurd, right? But if you accept the Christian worldview, it makes perfect sense.

I suspect pointing out the absurdities in mormonism to a missionary will be as about as effective as pointing out "sin" and the atonement to a christian.

I see your point, Holy. (BTW, I have wondered the same thing about Christianity, myself).

My background: Raised Catholic in New Orleans, where it is a big thing, culture-wise.
I studied anthropology, sociology and folklore and got really interested in comparative religion. I have been lurking on this site for over a year and have ready extensively about LDS.


I would love to see how a missionary would answer some of these difficult questions. I didn't realize until reading this site how much they have scripted for them.

Plenty of Mormons don't know about the things you mention. Once they get that you are trying to bait them, they will most likely classify you as influenced by anti-Mormon sources (like .. from Satan) and write you off. Anything that isn't faith promoting is anti-Mormon and and plenty of it comes right out of approved Mormon sources. A good TBM, however, will make excuses for why the sources were misunderstood or twisted without doing any of the appropriate research or verification.

I agree with rt about being "nice" to missionaries having been one and having had several sons serve missions.

Nevertheless, a worthy goal in interacting with any deluded person is to get them to evaluate their beliefs.

IMO saying anything critical about the Church leaders or Joseph Smith will not be useful. They will immediately dismiss it without thinking. Something that I believe may initiate some thought in a TBM, (especially if done in the context of "help me understand this" instead of "I am possessed by Satan and trying to attack God's true Church") is this.


There are many unique doctrines in Mormonism. The Book of Mormon is claimed to contain the "fullness of the gospel". Can you point out ANY uniquely Mormon doctrine contained in the BOM? (No, .. it contains NONE of the many unique doctrines of Mormonism.) Why do you suppose the BOM has no mention of these important Gospel principles?


* Baptism for the dead
* Melchezidic and Aaronic Priesthood
* Polygamy (as taught and practiced)
* 3 heavenly kingdoms
* God was once a man
* God has a body of flesh and bones
* There are many Gods
* Men can become Gods
* Exaltation requires Temple ceremony
* Tithing as a necessary commandment
* Families are eternal
* Pre existence
*Baptism for the Dead
* Word of Wisdom

http://packham.n4m.org/bomvslds.htm

I think that a direct attack is unlikely to be successful. Mormons are only strengthened by attacks.

Mormons do think that truth and facts are on their side though. If you can get them to read and think, there is hope. Most of us that have seen the light got here by searching for answers that we really believed we would find.

----------------------

Another area that most members are not too threatened by are things like the Tower of Babel, Noah's Flood, etc. You are more likely to get somebody thinking if you discuss something that they are not so personally invested in, than in their "living prophet" or Joseph Smith.

With the "help me understand this" tactic.

DH is an RM, and MANY of the things such as DNA evidence, BoA, polyandry... he knew NOTHING about those til wifey enlightened him and he fell away.

I think ignorance is not a good excuse for giving a salesman a break, no matter how wide-eyed and fresh faced they may be.

I do find I do NOT get a break from them when they find out I am exmo. I get an earful of what they know is true and why they know it and how I should come next week for a potluck and is it okay if they tell the RS president I want to go?

I asked the last set about the Great and Spacious Mall. He told me that it was demolished and there was a "beautiful park there now where people can go to reflect and become closer to their father in heaven." Which is clearly a LIE. Someone probably told him that and he just believed it without any research because an important person said it.

They just regurgitate things. It's a good thing to get them thinking.

in their religion but you thought it would be nice to invite them in for a little break.

On my mission in Germany the person I remember the most clearly and with the most affection was an old woman who selflessly invited us in on a freezing cold day, gave us something warm to drink and something to eat. Not because she was interested in our message but because she simply saw we were cold and tired.

To this day I smile when I think of her, not just because of her kindness, but because it was her simple example of human kindness that had more effect on me leaving the Church than all the anti-mormon bashers I ever ran across.

Why are we arguing the right and wrong of these tactics. People do what works best for them at the time. We each see life through our own individual filters. Usually hell breaks out when we start trying to conform or live our life according to someone elses filter. No one knows the 'right' or 'correct' way. They only know their way and if is seems to be working for them so be it.

Discussion of facts is sometimes helpful but sometimes trying to do it falls on deaf ears. I am not assigned to fix or alter anyone's beliefs but if I find delight in talking with people about whatever, I think it is my duty and right to laugh, learn and follow whatever turns me on. JMHO but I admit my opinion is just that, my opinion, and it only matters to me. lol

When I left they sent out there missionaries to "spy" or get the reasons why I left so abrubtly after being a good little tbm. After telling them a few things, one missionary probably fresh out of the MTC; (we were on the front porch) comes up a step and says well I'm sorry you didn't have a strong enough testimony to carry you through these trials. I stepped down a step and told him off. He didn't even know me! The other companion (probably soon to go home) was sitting on the railing and I caught him smirk. I'm sure the little punk told on the other missionary for not standing up for the church. They sat in my driveway for quite sometime. Some are nice; some are punks with a nametag!

I'm with rebekah and socrates on this one. The missionaries are victims of their own upbringing. Getting them to think is probably the most successful strategy.
I served a mission, too, and I can tell you, some of the people who made the greatest impact on me were the people who weren't interested, but showed kindness, and were willing to talk. I remember a Herr Zimmerman. He was an american living in Germany, so he just wanted to speak english with other americans, even if that meant talking with deluded mormons. He was an atheist, and a very opinionated one at that. He talked to us about other philosophies, the population explosion, etc. He didn't criticize the mormon faith, he just opened another world and let us decide for ourselves if we wanted our brains to walk around in it.