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Posted by: James75 ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 04:54PM

I live in Utah Valley in a pretty nice, cookie-cutter Mormon neighborhood. There's a twenty-something year old kid who rents out an apartment across the street from me. We've become pretty good friends over the past few months. He and I go hiking and rock climbing along with a few other people in the ward. (I'm inactive in the Church myself, so I'm always grateful when ward members set up activities that feel like normal get-togethers instead of guilt-tripping Church activities).

We just like to keep him involved in the community, especially since he's had a pretty rough life and told me he was lonely/depressed a few times. He moved here from back east to go to college and hike/ski/mountain bike. He was born and raised in Reform Judaism and still went to synagogue and stuff, but people in the ward often invite him over for dinner when the missionaries are there. He started taking the discussions, reading the Book of Mormon, and telling me that it speaks to him.

I've tried to be neutral. On one hand, it's nice to see something that makes him happy. But, it makes me feel really uncomfortable. The Bishopric and missionaries are basically preying on an emotionally vulnerable college kid who's thousands of miles away from home and doesn't know that much about Mormonism to begin with.

I want to give him my perspective without coming off as a jerk, but I have no idea how to do it.

Advice??

Thanks for your help.

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Posted by: Princess Telestia ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 04:59PM

Show him some lesser known beliefs and the stuff they don't teach (eternal polygamy). Plus throw in some of the unfavorable sides of history and then tell him gently... that you need to see both sides but whatever you do I will always be your friend. By showing him the bad sides it can help, but ultimately it's their poor choice, I wish when I "converted" they'd told me everything....

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 05:11PM

I'd tell him that the church is going to put a high pressure sales job on him. Why would they need to pressure him into joining if it was on the up and up? Tell him it's ok to really study the church before joining. And then mention that there are some unsavory things they're keeping from him. These are things the church is willing to admit are true but make it hard to find out about them. Why is that? Mention the essays that are posted on LDS.org (hint, you can find a link to the essays on the main page of this bulletin board at the top).

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Posted by: Princess Telestia ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 05:15PM

Also have him talk to some exmormons, to show the negative side of the Modern LDS church.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 05:21PM

If he show an interest, expand on a topic. If he doesn't, back off. You'll know how to handle the situation as soon as you see his reaction.

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 05:21PM

Richard Packham (one of our posters here) has created a webpage for investigators explaining the things that the missionaries don't tell people. It's very informative (as is his whole website.

http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm

Keep in mind that you can be factual and honest without being negative or rude about your neighbors. Being neutral might give the impression that you are OK with mormonism, when I'm assuming, that you're not. It is OK to let him know the truth about the church, letting him know that your neighbors and other people in the church aren't bad people, they are misguided. Letting him know what joining the church could mean to his future could be a big help to him.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 05:24PM

Just hand him the link for the CES letter, and suggest he read it before "converting."

http://cesletter.com/

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 05:31PM

Let him know, though, that mormons don't like it when non-members 'reject' the truth. If he falls for a TBM girl, she'll either reject him for not being TBM, or make dating her conditional on his 'investigating' the church, which means joining.

And the hoary old fall back, and the best advice ever, if he has any questions about mormonism, ask RfM, which giveth liberally!

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Posted by: Anonymous 2 ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 05:48PM

Use this line from the "The Brady Bunch Movie"(1995)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112572/trivia?tab=qt&ref_=tt_trv_qu

Charlie: Um, Marcia, I gotta go. Uh something suddenly came up.

The important line is "something suddenly came up." I rather doubt that they've seen the movie!!

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Posted by: seekyr ( )
Date: November 15, 2016 12:36PM

Yeah, leave out the "Marcia" part, that might be confusing.

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Posted by: Jonny the Smoke ( )
Date: November 15, 2016 04:01PM

Not to pick a nit......But, that line is from one of the series episodes, not the movie remake.

I grew up watching The Brady Bunch when it was in prime time on Friday nights.....saw that episode then and in reruns over the years.

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Posted by: Anonymous 2 ( )
Date: November 17, 2016 05:55PM

It's in the movie remake too. Check out the link. It's actually in the movie! I think they used it as a running joke! because it's said though out the movie!

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Posted by: ipo ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 06:10PM

You might check Robert Loomis' page, I've found it very useful.

It presents for example the BRT principle (Building a Relationship of Trust)


The Unauthorized Investigator's Guide to
The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints
http://www.lds4u.com/Discussions/brt.htm

"Building Relationships of Trust

"Become Acquainted

"The first step in Building Relationships of Trust is to become acquainted. The missionaries will introduce themselves to you and help you to understand that even though Mormon missionaries look like interchangeable robots, they are really unique individuals. They will likely tell you about where they are from, their family, their pre-mission interests, and why they are serving a mission.

"While they are trying to get you to know them, they will express interest in you and try to make you feel that they care about you. They'll ask you about your family, your interests, your work, whether you know any members of the Mormon church, and your feelings about God. You can bet your last dollar that if you have some tennis trophies on the fireplace mantle, that they will admire and ask about them.


"Build on Common Beliefs

"The second step of Building Relationships of Trust is to build on common beliefs. Many Christians criticize the Mormon religion for trying to appear more mainstream than it really is, and for using the same language as mainstream Christianity but meaning something different by it. I believe there is a lot of validity to this criticism, and that the Mormon church intentionally obfuscates its position by focusing on similarities rather than differences in the name of building on common beliefs.

"When you are trying to build relationships of trust at the office, there are two areas where the unwritten rules say you should tread lightly. Those two areas are religion and politics. People have charged feelings about those two things, and if it turns out that two people disagree on those topics, talking about them will tend to alienate the conversation's participants.

"The missionaries' goal is to build a "good, spiritual relationship" with you that is "more than a casual friendship." It is really hard to do that when you are alienated by talking about religion, and the purpose of the discussions is to talk about religion. That concept is so important to the whole missionary discussion experience that it deserves its own name. Let's call it The Missionaries' Dilemma. The Missionaries' Dilemma is this:

- The missionaries' purpose is to convert you to their religion.
- They need to build a good spiritual relationship with you in order to do that.
- Talking about religion among people with different convictions tends to alienate rather than bring together the conversation's participants.

"Faced with the choice between being clear about what they believe and building relationships, the church has decided to forgo clarity for relationships.

"Of course, the church can only take this concept so far. If they took the concept of building a relationship of trust on common beliefs to the extreme, they would say they believe everything that the investigator believes, and the investigator would see no point in switching religions. So, the committee who wrote the discussions tried to distill the very minimum set of beliefs that would be required to motivate somebody to drop their religion in favor of Mormonism. Those minimum distinguishing beliefs are concentrated in the third discussion. The rest of the teachings tend to focus on creating uplifting conversations built on common beliefs, coupled with commitments to assume the Mormon lifestyle, step by step.


"Show Empathy

"The third step of building on common beliefs is to show empathy. A prerequisite of showing empathy is having empathy. They will try to understand how you feel, and show you that they understand."

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 06:22PM

I would tell him that the missionaries tend to go after those who are new in town, such as himself -- that they pick on people who may be at loose ends. Tell him that there are plenty of things that the missionaries *aren't* telling him. Refer him to Richard Packham's page, linked above, and also Mormon Think. Tell him the ugly facts about polygamy, that Joseph went after teenage girls and other men's wives.

But also tell him that ultimately the decision is up to him, and it need not harm your friendship should he choose to join. Tell him to take his time about it -- a year or more, and to resist pressure to be baptized quickly.

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Posted by: anonuk ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 07:28PM

Is your friend not at least a little bit suspicious as to why he is only invited to dinners that missionaries are attending? Has he thought about what it would mean if every time you went to dinner with his family the rabbi or some other jewish teacher was there?

He is your mate, he trusts you and since you are not speaking out, he is assuming you are okay with all this.

Speak out to him. Your mormon brainwashing is kicking in so overcome it and do what you know you should - warn him in one or all of the ways described by other posters. If you let them suck him in without alerting him to at least the reasons you do not attend, then you are complicit in his conversion.

Be a good friend, don't be a good mormon.

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Posted by: subeamnotlogedin ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 08:32PM

His only social life at the moment so it sounds is lds and that's why they have a big impact on him. He can easily fall for the we are best friends till he gets baptized. Missionaries are religious sells people who tweak the truth knowingly or unknowingly to get the sell.

https://www.meetup.com/UtahValleyPostmormons/

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Posted by: pathfinder ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 08:37PM

Give him the address to here and mormonthink. Print out the ces letter and give it to him or leave it at his doorstep.

Most of all. If you are his friend as you say, then don't stand by and let him fall. He at least should have ALL the info about the church before making a decision. He can't make one just based on what the missionaries tell him and should be encouraged to seek out the truth and further educate himself on tscc. You know the missionaries want tell him this. There way is to have him speak to the bishop or some counselor who will just feed him more tscc,,,bs crap.

Don't let him fall and just stand there and watch...

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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 10:14PM

I agree with the others. Ask him to read the following:

http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm

http://cesletter.com/

You don't have to come across as negative or "anti" just tell him he needs to be informed. The Mormons are going say and do anything to get him to convert. They will withhold information, intentionally or unintentionally that will make him question the religion. They are "love bombing" him right now but this will gradually go away after he joins.

Just get him to agree to read the above and he can make his own decision after that.

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Posted by: Elders Quorum Drop-out ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 10:23PM

"Bro, with all due respect, don't fuckin do it"

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Posted by: butterfly48 ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 10:59PM

show him the underwear....that alone makes me questions someones sanity. WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU WANT TO WEAR THOSE????????????
Seriously.
Simply put---want to follow a child perp???
Sexy boxers and bras and lace panties.....or two pairs of theses?
You do the foreplay--I mean the math.......

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: November 14, 2016 11:09PM

You should ask him what part of, or how exactly, the BoM "speaks" to him. He doesn't realize that the entire book is made up or copied crap, so whatever particularly moved him is simply Bible fan fiction mixed with 19th Century views. Also, much like a TV commercial sets up a "problem" that you didn't know you had, and then tries to sell you the solution, the mishies do the same thing to people who can do just fine without a bogus religion taking up their time...

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Posted by: Jonny the Smoke ( )
Date: November 15, 2016 09:50AM

Remind him that he's there to finish college, not convert to a new religion and faith.

Tell him to focus on his study's at school, and perhaps do a bit of study on the church, before he takes discussions.

Tell him what he is doing is more like not doing your course work/ home work/ studies for your degree, but you go to interviews to see if you want to take a job.

Tell him to do his studies in school and on the church first, finish his degree, then start thinking about which job or church he might be interesting in joining up with.

That's the practical side. On the emotional side, tell him to enjoy the friendship and fun, but don't confuse it with truthfulness regarding the church's claims. He needs to separate those two things.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: November 15, 2016 12:41PM

And don't forget.

FLIRT TO CONVERT.

It happened to my brother, and then as soon as he got dunked, they were "just friends."

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Posted by: koriwhore ( )
Date: November 15, 2016 03:53PM

Tell him to conduct an experiment to determine if the Mormon salesmen are capable of being honest.
Ask these simple questions and see if you can get honest anwers from a Mormon.
#1. Why do Mormons sing the praises of Joseph's Myth, when the church admits he "married" (had sex with) his followers wives and teenage daughters as young as 14 when he was 36?
#2. What law permitted Joseph and Brigham to marry their followers wives?"
#3. Why do Mormons still publish and promote racist 19th Century myths long after they have been debunked by DNA evidence, like the "Curse of Cain" myth and the notion that Indians are a lost tribe of Jews?
#4. Why did Mormons discriminate against an entire race of people for the vast majority of their history, based soley upon the color of their skin, after God commanded us to love our fellow men as ourselves? How is that not a gross violation of Gods law?",
If your faith requires you to lie or deny reality in order to defend your beliefs, then it is probably closer to delusional group think than any kind of a healthy world view.
Any world view is better than Joseph's Myth.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: November 16, 2016 02:30PM

Every difficult conversation ever was made easier with a couple of beers.

There is nothing impolite about telling a friend that Mormonism is a hot mess. Beautiful on the outside bat shit crazy on the inside. You would expect your friends to clue you into your missteps, why not be a pal and reciprocate?

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Posted by: kolobian ( )
Date: November 16, 2016 02:43PM

Is your friend in kindergarten?

Why should you dissuade them at all? If they like it they can join. If they don't, they won't.

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Posted by: peculiargifts ( )
Date: November 16, 2016 03:35PM

Because they can't know if they like it or not unless they get all of the facts.

Because the missionaries prey on lonely, innocent people and that is actually not very nice.

Because friends help each other out.

Because telling the truth is generally considered to be a good thing.

Because knowing the truth and withholding it from someone else is generally considered to be a bad thing.

And so on.

If I were considering signing up for TSCC I would greatly appreciate anyone who gave me factual information. And I would be just a little annoyed if I went through all of the rigamarole and time, trouble and expense, and then found out that it is all lies. And that my supposed friend had known that all along, and didn't bother to mention to me.

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Posted by: kolobian ( )
Date: November 16, 2016 05:14PM

So you're saying if you took the missionary discussions today you wouldn't do any of your own research to validate their claims?

You'd just take it at face value unless someone intervened?

Give yourself more credit than that!

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Posted by: peculiargifts ( )
Date: November 16, 2016 10:24PM

We're talking about a young, lonely, vulnerable person, being love bombed, here. That's a classic way that TSCC get converts.

It's good to help each other out. That's what I'm saying.

I don't appreciate your trying to twist what I clearly said into something that might possibly validate your contention.

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Posted by: kolobian ( )
Date: November 17, 2016 01:00AM

How young?

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Posted by: James75 ( )
Date: November 17, 2016 04:42AM

He's in his early twenties, but it really doesn't have anything to do with age or maturity in this situation. I don't feel comfortable going into detail, but he has a history of some serious trauma and mental health issues. He thought moving away and going to school would help, but it seems to be making it worse. I truly don't think he's thinking clearly. His foray into Mormonism has been troubling.


Anyway, thanks for all of the helpful answers, everyone. This has helped a lot.

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Posted by: koriwhore ( )
Date: November 16, 2016 11:00PM

For the most part I figure people are smart enough to Google shit on their own if they want to figure it out.
Just have an honest discussion with the guy about your serious concerns about this abusive, sexist, racist, homophobic institution. How can anybody sing praises to Joseph's Myth knowing that he claimed his follower's wives and teenage daughters as his own 'wives' (sexual gratification)?

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: November 17, 2016 11:27AM

That's how objective people in their right mind approach this. That is not how people who are emotionally vulnerable approach this. They usually don't really care about the deep details when it seems as if they're gaining friends and a support system in a strange, new place.

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Posted by: JVN087 ( )
Date: November 17, 2016 04:43PM

NO coffee/tea
NO beer
NO premarital sex/NO mastrubation
NOT allowing non-mormons to a temple wedding
every man getting his own planet
and the special underwear

As a never Mormon these were the things I thought were the oddest.

Hopefully as someone who grew up in the church in Utah you can be a source of good information

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Posted by: texsaw ( )
Date: November 18, 2016 10:13AM

Give him all the online resources people here have provided. Tell him it is all fictional BS, regardless of what the trained brain washers are peddling. If he still feels he has to join...You can't fix stupid!

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Posted by: bishop Rick ( )
Date: November 18, 2016 11:29PM

If he's not bright enough to google mormonism and research both sides of the argument, then there's probably nothing you can say to him that would save him. He's the perfect mark.

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