If we were spirits without beginning and without end, already residing in heaven with God and Christ, why the hell would we decide to come HERE?? We had it made, where we were.

But...but Christ did it! Yeah, and he died so that I wouldnt have to. So why the hell would should I bother?

I was having this conversation with someone the other day, and we just started busting out laughing. It is truly ridiculous.

As my wife explained to me, most unconvincingly, the reward is a physical body that we will retain in heaven; just like God with his physical body. We weren't satisfied being "just spirits" in heaven; because, without bodies, what's the point?

I know, I know, it doesn't make sense to me either.

surprenant Wrote:
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> As my wife explained to me, most unconvincingly,
> the reward is a physical body that we will retain
> in heaven; just like God with his physical body.
> We weren't satisfied being "just spirits" in
> heaven; because, without bodies, what's the
> point?
>
> I know, I know, it doesn't make sense to me
> either.


But in heaven we can make whatever the hell we want lol...

"But in heaven we can make whatever the hell we want lol..."

That was my reaction, as well, but apparently the god-like powers to make whatever we want only come with the body.

It's like the give-and-take with a child who is telling a fanciful story; the more you point out inconsistencies in the story, the more fanciful the story becomes to rectify them.

Every tried having sex or masturbating without a body? Not nearly as much fun. That's why we came to earth.

Ever ask her about people who can't walk, or see, or hear? Why is that any better than a mythological spirit form?

According to her, once we get to heaven our bodies will be in their perfect state, free of any disabilities or infirmities.

Any infirmities or disabilities during our time on earth are merely trials for us to prove our worthiness to reenter heaven; OR, are proof that we weren't so worthy while we were still spirits in pre-existence.

Penis... The male spirit children couldn't have one without experiencing mortality.

This is why both the man and the penis are called male members.

I'm pretty sure that's why my Mormon ex regrets having a physical body, because when he told me to lose weight and dress modestly that's where I kicked the bastard.

elderolddog Wrote:
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> ...couldn't have one without experiencing mortality.


Because that's the stupid way Elohim chose to do things.

Salvation is not guaranteed. For that, you need to cough up 10%.

Yeah, that's the thing with completely made-up nonsense...it rarely makes sense :)

This is the self-nullifying nature of mormon doctrine.

If there is no supreme god, then there had to be a first god who became a god all on his/her own.

So why can't we?

The entire premise of Christianity makes no sense. Why single out the Plan of Salvation?

God created man with a sinful nature, inevitably prone to sin. By God's own rules, his own creation is destined to spend eternity in perpetual torment.

So, God sends Jesus, one of the three aspects of God (go figure), to endure an excruciating death so that mankind could escape hell and go to heaven.

So God sacrificed himself to himself so humans could overcome a standard set by God himself and that God deliberately designed us to never be able to meet?

And that doesn't even get into the apples and talking snakes.

When you put it like that; I've quit jobs where I was set up to fail, so it stands to reason that that is why I'm non-religious. I'm also ex-Catholic, btw.

The whole concept of punishing an innocent person for the misdeeds of others makes no moral sense. It was clearly made up by people who wanted to avoid punishment (assuming there's an afterlife where they'd come to justice).

It's a mystery. Have faith.

That's what I always say: let's say you start out at Harvard, knowing everything (including, we assume, humility); then why would you be sent to a lesser place "to learn" so that you have to earn your way back to Harvard (and in the process, not actually learn *everything* you need to in order to get back in because you'll learn it when you get back to Harvard, where you knew it already!

Disclaimer: This example does not apply to Fresno State.

***Additional Disclaimer: Or to BYU, BYU-Idaho or BYU-Hawaii.

Or so it seems to me...

the plan of salivation

Eternity is a loooong time for someone who comes down here to die young.

Maybe, reincarnation and many lives would have made a little more sense for Christianity progression/salvation??

Whether we fall short by an inch or or light year, we still fall short. So why do we end up in certain 'kingdoms' because we fall short within arbitrary measures? That's what I'd like to know.

I can't speak for the Mormons, not even for much of Christianity, but I can give a Christian's viewpoint on the plan of our Lord.

When our Lord created this earth, he made man and woman. They were perfect. They were sinless and would not die. They were his perfect creations.

They then chose sin over the Lord. When that happened, they fell. All their children are born into this sin.

The Lord had mercy on Man. Even though man rebelled against him, and due to our parentage, have that sin as well as our own rebellion upon our heads, wished to save us from that sin.

He came down and took upon him our sins so that he could save us by his grace.

All we have to do is turn to him instead of to sin. We have to choose to accept his grace, instead of doing as Adam and Eve did and accept sin instead. If we accept his grace, we are saved by him.

That's it in a nutshell. I don't find it hard to believe, but I think if someone wants evidence they won't find it. I think faith is a central tenet in all of it. You have those who find it fanciful and those who truly believe it.

The basic idea is that our race (humanity) rebelled against the Lord and are fallen already. He is there for all of us, but unless we choose to accept his sacrifice for us and be saved, he is not going to force us to do anything anymore than he forced Adam and Eve to do what they should to stay in the Garden and perfection.

That's a basic summary of my Christian idea...and I note it is similar and yet VERY different then the Mormon ideas. I think one similarity is that both require the believer to have faith in things they cannot see or cannot know.

For me, I choose to have faith, but I realize there are many that find this hard to do. I would hope everyone I know is saved in heaven, but in the end, we all choose whether we believe or whether we do not. Only the Lord chooses and judges in the end.

Betty G Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When our Lord created this earth, he made man and
> woman. They were perfect. They were sinless and
> would not die. They were his perfect creations.
>
> They then chose sin over the Lord. When that
> happened, they fell. All their children are born
> into this sin.

How can "perfect" beings make a mistake?

Oops.

Why do the remote descendants of some (supposed) pair of people who (supposedly) lived many thousands of years ago get stuck with the "sin" of their remote ancestors?

Oops.

Yes, we know what "mainstream" christianity's "plan of salvation" is. When you examine it, however, it doesn't make any more sense than mormonism's version.

"When our Lord created this earth, he made man and woman. They were perfect. They were sinless and would not die. They were his perfect creations.

They then chose sin over the Lord. When that happened, they fell. All their children are born into this sin."


I'm sorry.....WHAT?

First, in order to choose something one must have knowledge. It was the fruit of the tree of knowledge that they were forbidden to eat from, lest they should surely die. Thus, they could NOT make any choice as complete ignorance (their state prior to eating the fruit) is the anathema of choice.

Second, IF they were his perfect creations, assuming they COULD make a choice, they would NOT chose sin over the Lord because to do so would be the definition of imperfection.

The whole doctrine is complete nonsense any way you slice it.

Betty G Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't speak for the Mormons, not even for much
> of Christianity, but I can give a Christian's
> viewpoint on the plan of our Lord.
>
> When our Lord created this earth, he made man and
> woman. They were perfect. They were sinless and
> would not die. They were his perfect creations.
>
> They then chose sin over the Lord. When that
> happened, they fell. All their children are born
> into this sin.
>
> The Lord had mercy on Man. Even though man
> rebelled against him, and due to our parentage,
> have that sin as well as our own rebellion upon
> our heads, wished to save us from that sin.
>
> He came down and took upon him our sins so that he
> could save us by his grace.
>
> All we have to do is turn to him instead of to
> sin. We have to choose to accept his grace,
> instead of doing as Adam and Eve did and accept
> sin instead. If we accept his grace, we are saved
> by him.
>
> That's it in a nutshell. I don't find it hard to
> believe, but I think if someone wants evidence
> they won't find it. I think faith is a central
> tenet in all of it. You have those who find it
> fanciful and those who truly believe it.
>
> The basic idea is that our race (humanity)
> rebelled against the Lord and are fallen already.
> He is there for all of us, but unless we choose to
> accept his sacrifice for us and be saved, he is
> not going to force us to do anything anymore than
> he forced Adam and Eve to do what they should to
> stay in the Garden and perfection.
>
> That's a basic summary of my Christian idea...and
> I note it is similar and yet VERY different then
> the Mormon ideas. I think one similarity is that
> both require the believer to have faith in things
> they cannot see or cannot know.
>
> For me, I choose to have faith, but I realize
> there are many that find this hard to do. I would
> hope everyone I know is saved in heaven, but in
> the end, we all choose whether we believe or
> whether we do not. Only the Lord chooses and
> judges in the end.


The problem with Mormonism, is that they teach we are not punished for adam and eve's trangression..only for our own sins, and we unaccountable until the age of 8.

It's just all one big mess lol

Just to clarify on my post above, I think some of the key differences between Mormonism and general Christian ideas in this area center around the following...if I am wrong, feel free to correct me.

Christians believe we are born into sin, that the sacrifice of the Lord saved us from this sin and our sin as well as long as we accept his grace.

Mormons on the otherhand believe that we are not responsible for the sins of Adam. Now I'm not entirely clear on this...but I think they also believe that the Lord took upon him Adam's sin, and if he had not done so, man would still be held responsible for it. However, because of the atonement, man is not held responsible for Adam's fall, but only for his sins.

Mormons also believe in Grace, but that there must be works to show obedience in gaining this? I'm not absolutely clear, but in essence they must do works (such as baptism, and other such things) in order to be saved as they need to actively SHOW they are following and accepting the Lord...

Verses the Baptist which believe you accept the Lord and his grace can save you, but you can exhibit this by being baptized or other works, but they are not what actually saves you, it is only his grace which can do that.

Baptists tend to believe in ONE heaven, where those who accept the Lord and are saved by his grace go. Those who do not, and are not judged of the Lord to go to heaven go to hell.

The LDS believe in a Spirit world which is divided into a place good people go and a place where bad people go.

They then are judged later and go to one of three places, depending on their righteousness.

Only a VERY few go to hell, almost everyone is saved somewhere, somehow, in heaven.

I think there are other major differences, but those are some of the big differences between the LDS and the Baptist ideas in regards to heaven and where we go in the afterlife as well as in regards to what one might term, the plan of salvation.

The big similiarity (though there are many Baptists that would disagree) is that we both believe in Christ and his power to save. I am an optimist that hopes that all those that believe and accept Christ will go to heaven, as I view Christ as a very loving individual. However, as I am NOT the Lord, I don't know...and cannot speak for him nor judge, only he is the one that can do that.

I can understand the skepticism in the world, as there is no physical evidence that I can point to, and in that way, it can seem very illogical whether one is LDS in their faith or otherwise.

But as for me, I am religious in my own beliefs, and hope that people in general accept the Lord and his great sacrifice for us all.

You are right about the " no physical evidence" part. I watched Star Wars....looked pretty good to me. Anyone else have a favorite story that they like that has no evidence of being true?

What this means to me is that you can make up your own religion and your own fantasy world, and it will be just as valid as Mormonism if not more so. Although there's something about reality that appeals to me. Call me weird.

A co-worker years ago had a stroke. He was in his early 60's. Prior to the stroke he was friendly, easy to get along with and an excellent electrician who would do anything asked of him at work. You could always count on him to complete a project. He was and still is a devout Christian.

Now, he is mean, never smiles and gripes constantly. Which version of this man will be the basis of how god will judge him? I see our bodies and brains as being vulnerable to accidents, medical conditions and the environment in which we live. To be judged for eternity for things outside of our control seems a bit absurd. It would also be cruel. It is just one of many reasons for me to find the Plan of Salvation lacking credibility along with the concept of an anthropomorphic god.

I thought it was interesting that a ward 'lds book club' chose a 'life after death' book to review ------ although we all know they rarely read or discuss the book but gossip.

However, how many 'after life books' talk about the 'spirit prison' or any divide of the people ------ none that I know of not even Mormon authored books.

Anyway, I asked what they thought about it. My wife said most thought yea that is pretty much accurate. Even though it says nothing about any divide in heaven, no missionaries welcoming new non Mormons to preach to, etc. etc.

I guess 'brain washing' will do that to a person. No need to be critical when you know the truth.

God: A perfect representation of all things.
Creation: A perfect representation of god.
Humans: Batshit crazy.

God knowing that he fucked up was like, damn. What do I do now? So he was like. I know, I'm going to kill my boy. Because justice and shit. But then after he offed his boy he was like, damn. It didn't work all the way. Then he was like wait humans have to believe for it to work. So he was like, let's start a church to help people believe. Then he was like, damn. People changed my church around. I'm going to start like 200 more so that I've got my basis covered. Then he was like, damn. All the churches are the same, how am I going to know when Humans really believe. So he's like, I know, handshakes.

There you go, the Plan of Salvation.

Plan of Slave-ation?

Isn't this an example of circular morg logic!???

Plan of salvation.

Your so-called loving heavenly father sends you out to test you as to whether or not you are worthy to be with him.

I'll take the love from earthly parents, who aren't out to test you or your worthiness, over such a god.

why worship someone like that???

angela Wrote:
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> I'll take the love from earthly parents, who
> aren't out to test you or your worthiness...


That wouldn't be my parents.

I don't think you've prayed and fasted hard enough. Give us more money.

The whole Adam and Eve (who were perfect until they were not) premise, on which all the rest of this house of cards is based, makes zero sense.

The Mormon twist of putting them in Missouri is just the cherry on this sundae of absurdity.

Star Wars, Avatar and Lord of the Rings are all better crafted morality tales.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
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> The Mormon twist of putting them in Missouri is
> just the cherry on this sundae of absurdity.

Or, as Bill Maher said, Mormonism is the bullshit of Christianity with more bullshit piled on top.

The Plan of Salvation says that we were required to come to earth and follow God's plan. 1/3 of the spirits in heaven refused and were sent straight to outer darkness. Yup sounds absurd.

Also I thought it was strange that Gods with physical bodies would produce spirit babies without physical bodies. Plus how does a woman with a body get pregnant with a non-physical spirit baby anyways. It just doesnt make sense even from a Mormon viewpoint.

Asexual reproduction.

Or maybe the spirit children are just conjured into existence.

My plan of salivation is as follows:

-try not piss off my wife
-be a good dad and grandpa
-be a good friend
-don't screw anyone in a deal

Seems to be working so far.

It's a good plan. As I've told my wife, even if God does exist, I doubt that he would be so petty as to punish me just because I don't believe in him, so long as I am a good man.

surprenant Wrote:
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> ...I doubt that he would be so petty
> as to punish me just because I don't believe in
> him...

Well, see, he get's pissed off that he did all that perfection stuff for nothing.