I see this question raised from time to time. I like to answer this as a former leader (Bishop, Counselor, etc.). Bottom line, a Bishop is as good as his own wisdom and people skills. I saw good and bad leaders. But, I think those same good leaders would be good in other places (business, government, and so forth).

One of the things that started to cause me to have doubts was this question and seeing (what I thought) were very uninspired Bishops and SP. Their decision making made no sense to me and I saw things botched up, favoritism to friends, and they would give weird and, sometimes, dangerous advice. Some would violate confidentiality, some would offend people, some would act like they knew more about emotional issues than others, etc. But, the very good Bishops had a favorable skill set (social skills, common sense, problem solving skills). Were they inspired more by God? No, they just had the favorable skill set and wisdom.

I agree, Sam, those are the best qualities for an LDS bishop. However, bishops and other leaders are chosen more for their managerial skills and devotion. I used to watch how men in my ward would campaign for leadership positions by bearing frequent, serious testimony, dress like a businessman, and tout their graduate degrees. (I'm not saying you did this my friend!).

The last four bishops in my ward have all came out of the business arena and three of the four have had MBAs. There's nothing wrong with this except--pastoral counseling skills were greatly lacking.

My current Protestant minister has a social science degree and was required to spend four months interning in prison ministry, hospital ministry, and inner city ministry for his ordination. He eventually settled in inner city ministry for many years before being called to the West.

Unlike the LDS church, a church congregation council, elected by the people, handles congregational finances. Each week, a copy of the week's financial report is included in the worship bulletin.

I'm sure what has been described by me is very indicative of many faith communities. Amyjo, if you're reading this, you may want to share how your rabbi was trained and how your synagogue handles finances.

Very best wishes, Sam! It's too bad you weren't my bishop! You sound like you were one of the more compassionate ones! Bother Boner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2016 12:04PM by BYU Boner.

That makes sense. However, I have never had an MBA Bishop before. I think it might depend on the area you live and the level of education in that area. The west might be different than the south and more rural areas. But, I am sure it varies a great deal.

By the way, I have an MBA and Ph.D. I always tried to be kind, loving, and personable to each member. I tried to be helpful but realized I was in over my head with some problems (no training). Like I said, I had some great Bishops and a few horrible ones.

I live in one of the most Mormon neighborhoods in Utah. There's A LOT of money here. I don't have a problem with education or money--what I have a problem with is the notion that we are entitled to these because we are more righteous. I should add that many folks here were born into 5th generation LDS families who were strongly established in business.

Last year, I had a colleague who also was non-LDS and lived in my neighborhood. He relocated out of Utah because of the negative harassment by his Mormon neighbors. He was well-educated, warm, and friendly. After three years, he and his wife finally had enough and moved. Sadly, this scenario plays itself over and very in many MORG neighborhoods.

And, Sam, congratulations on your educational achievements! Those are awesome!! Boner.

In other churches, most members cannot hope to become leaders because they have not gone to divinity school. In Mormonism, ward members compete with each other to become leaders, since any man can be a leader. It is easier to deal with a religious leader if you are not jealous of him all the time.

I love some of these topics that make me 'think about' my past with the church.

I was normally always in a leadership position (counselor or priesthood leader) because I had a good career. I was brain washed, I didn't have that much of a testimony of JS or the BoM but it was a morbot thing go to church on Sunday and accept callings (except bishop). I wasn't a complete fool ----- no offence of course.

I would argue that I did witness some 'inspiration' but very rarely. Most callings were made with 'common sense' and limited resources.

We always 'pray' to make callings and pray to 'set people apart'. I can clearly remember one setting apart where the bishop was 'inspired' and provided information that he could not have known because it was for my wife and we didn't know the information was valid at the time he said it. Psychic information? Probably.

I also clearly 'recall' that before I left the church I made sure I got 'confirmation' of any call I accepted as I believed I recently had a 'terrible experience' by a truly uninspired bishop and didn't want that to occur again.

Anyway, the last calling I accepted they offered it and wanted to set me apart in an hour. I began to tell the Stake Pres. sorry, but I need time to 'confirm' this is right and as soon as I was about to interrupt I got a specific impression that I should accept.

That was my last calling in the church. That calling, in hind sight, was important in helping me find out the church was a scam and helped me in leaving the church.

Yes, someone being a psychic is the most logical explanation.

I have never been a bishop before but I have been in a couple of bishopricks. Most of my morgish callings have been as a teacher or assistant scout master. However, I have been called to many church jobs by someone who professes to be "inspired". One such calling was as a basketball coach back when the church still had wards who played basketball against each other. I have absolutely NO interest in sports whatsoever. The bishop's counselor begged me to accept the job and said it was not him asking, it was our heavenly father. No inspiration here folks. I actually laughed at him for even asking me.

The second time was when computers first came into existence and I wanted one even though I had never actually seen one. I had read about them in the Radio Shack flyers that come in the mail. When it was time for our ward to acquire one, the bishop called me in and asked me to be our ward computer specialist and teach other people how to use them. Again I laughed. I told him I didn't have a clue how to turn one on and certainly didn't know how to work it. He said I will learn, so out of curiosity, I accepted.

I learned a few things, but this was back in the day when MS-DOS ruled and that early church computer had a very basic program that required using floppy disks and the F keys. There was no inspiration in this calling. By then a few members had their own computers and knew how to turn them on.

No one on the face of the earth has ever receive inspiration from a God. You might feel good or they might feel good but there is no such thing as inspiration from God.

No Mormon Leader has ever been inspired. Period. One of the biggest lies ever. They use it to suck your time, talents and money. Just a bunch of liars at work.

Posted by: themaster:
"No one on the face of the earth has ever receive inspiration from a God. You might feel good or they might feel good but there is no such thing as inspiration from God.
No Mormon Leader has ever been inspired. Period. One of the biggest lies ever. They use it to suck your time, talents and money. Just a bunch of liars at work."

You can but speak for yourself, John. Individually some may agree, and some others have experienced being "inspired" (me having been one of the latter). I have fervently prayed to know what to do, and (as an apparent result), my brain was guided into knowing what to do. Saved me from being falsely accused and arrested by my enemies, and from being excommunicated by Packer (no small thing). (Packer preferred to X people in order to ruin their reputation, and--if applicable--their job.)

I would also disagree with themaster's comment about no-one receiving inspiration.

On certain occasions I have 'known' things there was no way for me to know, or 'seen' things others did not. I cannot say for certain where it came from, but it was inspired by something. Maybe collective unconscious, maybe not - who can say for sure? If someone wants to call that force that made me aware of things 'god' then I'm okay with that.

I have a whole journal of visions, premonitions, 'knowing' experiences ------ that 'all' came true! Many happened when I was a Mormon more have happened the last couple years. Many were 'small' things but helped as I am not always in danger, etc.

They have helped me, my family, etc. and my life and I appreciate the help.

The only problem is I can't control what I get and when I get it or I could prove this stuff is real.

When I don't worry about trying to prove anything to anyone else and just go about my day (meditating and trying to keep open) and let it come to me ----- it comes. Sometimes frequently sometimes not.

Sometimes, I can ask or try remote viewing, or other psychic techniques for something (normally future information) and get things but not always ---- I just go blank (mind and body). I try to improve my skills in asking and getting but it doesn't work nearly as well as just waiting for what I will eventually get/need.

Where this information comes from is debatable ----- but when you 'know normally through a combination of seeing, hearing and feeling' it is correct.

spiritist said:

"The only problem is I can't control what I get and when I get it or I could prove this stuff is real."

Which is the same problem ALL psychics and other professed possessors of paranormal powers have: when they show up to demonstrate their alleged abilities to skeptics in controlled environments, their abilities stay home. Which is why the only evidence these people ever produce is their own testimony and that of fellow believers. And so James Randi's "One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge" was never met, despite the efforts of over a thousand claimants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge

Lurking in Tries the Old "Randi Challenge" Fallacy:

"Which is the same problem ALL psychics and other professed possessors of paranormal powers have: when they show up to demonstrate their alleged abilities to skeptics in controlled environments, their abilities stay home. Which is why the only evidence these people ever produce is their own testimony and that of fellow believers. And so James Randi's "One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge" was never met, despite the efforts of over a thousand claimants."
____________________________________________________

I am actually glad you brought 'Randi" up! Anyone that has invested very much time to read about or study "psychic" information and 'psychics' would know the answer to this.

Unfortunately, 'psychics/intuition' is an 'art' not a 'science'. You or others can correct me if I am wrong, however, "NO" valid psychic would claim he/she would have a 100% accuracy rate. Sorry!

However, Randi knows this and therefore makes the statement: "Failure to display a 100% success rate in the open test would cause their immediate disqualification."

Randi is not taking a very big chance of losing his money! No well respected psychic would take the challenge because they know they normally would not get 100% accuracy. Further, they don't normally 'publicize' their accuracy rate. If anyone 'advertises' something like xxxx knows all and tells all it is just considered ----- Puffery not fraud. Just like saying my used car looks and runs 'great' ---- puffery not fraud.

I have demonstrated some psychic/intuition ability and if there is nothing to lose (I am not a professional psychic) why not try it. I have hit 100% accuracy on some of the 'playing around' I have done with intuition ---- why not give it a chance. There is a possibility of actually being successful. That is why some people try it ---- they have nothing to lose. However, major league 'psychics' won't.

If the contest were to 'prove' psychic ability period. I would enter in a 'New York Minute' as I 'playing around' using various techniques, can normally hit well about the 'statistical expectation'.

The highest long run accuracy claim I have heard of is 'over 90%' from remote viewers. However, that certainly doesn't mean the individual (psychics/rvr's) necessarily hit that.

It means, based on my training in RV and study, a group of RVr's (maybe 3-x? teams of 2) work the same 'target' at the same time independently. They may work the target a number of times (doesn't take that long) before they review the results to see how 'similar' the information from the separate teams is. When they get 'similar information' then they may do more RV work to better define/clarify some of the similar things they got.

In the end of their (many psychics/RV peoples involvement) 'process' they come up with their final drawings and/or report to get their 90% accuracy.

In training I got 2 of 3 'targets' pretty accurate alone. Others supposedly did pretty well also but not 100%.

Too bad everyone doesn't understand Randi's scheme. It turns a lot of people away from something that may work or help them ---- the accuracy is just not 100%.

Luckily investing and many other things (work, tests, sports, major decisions, hobbies, etc.) do not require 100% accurate intuition to be fairly successful at.

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> However, Randi knows this and therefore makes the
> statement: "Failure to display a 100% success
> rate in the open test would cause their immediate
> disqualification."


I used to belong to the JREF and am quite familiar with the Million dollar challenge.
I am also quite familiar with the LIES and dissembling that butt-hurt "psychics" talk about it

your quote is correct, but taken out of context. you are talking about the Open test.

when a "Psychic" tries their luck at the challenge, the first thing they have to do is demonstrate their claim
for example, a dowser may be asked to demonstrate his dowsing ability by finding a buried bottle of water IN AN OPEN TEST WHERE THE DOWSER KNOWS THE EXACT LOCATION OF THE BURIED BOTTLE
not surprisingly, most people can pass this test and it is simply there to show that test conditions are correct

[for example, it would be pretty stupid to do a test to find a buried plastic bottle, full of water if the dowser subsequently claimed that the plastic inhibited his ability

all the tests are mutually agreed with the claimant & JREF and what constitutes a 'hit' is mutually agreed, two. the results are checked independantly.

THE FINAL RESULTS DO NOT HAVE TO BE 100%, but they have to be statistically significant.
a 90% hit rate would almost certainly constitute a 'Win' in most circumstnces

Thank you for putting the quote spiritist used in context and clarifying the misunderstanding on the "open test" qualifications.

It should also be noted that after the open test, the rest of the challenge was to be administered in two parts. The first part simply required that the claimant demonstrate ability significantly greater than random chance. No one ever passed it. The second part of the test would have required more rigorous conditions and a higher threshold of success than the first (but as stated it was never necessary to administer because the more than 1,000 claimants all failed the far easier portion of the challenge).

spiritist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lurking in Tries the Old "Randi Challenge"
> Fallacy:

You may not agree with or like the "Randi Challenge" rules, however there's no logical fallacy involved.

Here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Notice: no "Randi Challenge" fallacy.

> Unfortunately, 'psychics/intuition' is an 'art' not a
> 'science'.

There's no evidence it's either one, actually.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2016 05:18PM by ificouldhietokolob.

Here are some "inspired" Mormon leaders being duped by a con
man. Their spectacular lack of inspiration needed two murders
to occur before they realized they'd been had.

http://www.utlm.org/images/newsletters/115/115cover_hofmannchurchleaders.gif

I realise that you all know this anyway...... but here goes. lol

Mormon Leaders are not inspired, if inspired means gaining supernatural insight or special knowledge from a higher being.

They are just earthly men but full of crap and too much idle religious spare time which results from having too much money and no particular struggles to have to earn a living. Everything is taken care for them.

Just look at the history of the garbage and destructive bullcrap taught by them and their members were expected to follow them and taught that they cannot lead you astray etc and then the members are told not to criticize them even if the criticism is true.

Mormonism is a type of North Korean style fear cult where members are too scared to criticise any aspects of Mormonism unless the leaders have given them permission to criticise. It's now ok to disagree with Brigham Young but it wasn't when he was the leader. Todays asspostles seem to be disavowing his and most subsequent leaders theology on black skin. Tomorrows asspostles will equally disavow todays current asspostolitic bullcrap.

In North Korea your family goes missing if you don't follow the protocol prescribed. In Mormonism you get estranged from Mormon family/community via their deluded/brainwashed fear of God (and his earthly asspostles etc) and fear of eternal disadvantage and even financial disadvantage in this world if you don't follow their protocol.

The whole pay tithe and you'll get blessed back even more dollars is just a prosperity scam on the gullible and/or desperate, that all religious scammers use on their deluded followers.

Good points zeezromp. Crisp and concise.

I have never felt inspired from some exogenous source. I can walk my thoughts backwards and, to my satisfaction, pinpoint their source--something I read, something I experienced, something I was taught, etc.

Are others inspired? I have no idea. I have no way of confirming if someone else is inspired by some external consciousness or not.

Until I have that ability I'm taking what is for me the prudent path and calling bullshit. A honcho in SLC claiming to be inspired or claiming that his peer was inspired doesn't mean squat to me. Meanwhile I know for a fact that the placebos have measurable effects, and that post hoc ergo propter hoc is one of the more common logical fallacies; just because A happened and then B doesn't prove that A caused B.

LDS honchos should prove their so-called inspiration, or zip it.

+100%

My wife tells me that I am "guided by the spirit" because of the "insight" I've regularly demonstrated. As I've explained a number of times to her, I'm not divinely inspired, but merely piecing together a bunch of seemingly disparate factors, recognizing some universal truths, acknowledging that some experience and knowledge is transferable, and drawing logical and probable conclusions from it all.

I know that I'm not inspired, though I am more willing than some to trust my subconscious to see patterns that I am not immediately conscious of. As you said, it's a matter of walking my thoughts back to find the very mundane origin of my "insight".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2016 09:11AM by surprenant.

I understand what pollythinks is saying and thinking things through is a good trait. But - there is no such thing and never has been a "prophet" or any religious title that has received "revelation" or "inspiration" from a God type Super Hero character. Any claim to inspiration from on high or God or Batman or Superman or any other fictional character is simply a lie.

Can anyone "prove" (a) there is a god and (b) this god has actually communicated with anyone? No - enough said.

Good Bishops / Bad Bishops They are both propagating information furnished them by a con man, Horny Joe. How can you have "inspired" anything from a book of made up BS?

Please take some time to consider the basic source of information that Bishops, SP's, missionaries, the old farts in SLC use to manipulate good, well meaning people. Repeat to yourself "It is all fiction". That "Good Bishop" was most likely a good person to begin with. If he told you that the Book of Mormon was "true", he lied, plain and simple.

I believe anyone who allows himself into any position of authority within TSCC is guilty spreading the exact same crap as Ol' Joe. The only thing they were inspired to do was to get your money.

I was never in the bishopric; never an Elders' Quorum president. My highest positions were in the Aaronic Priesthood, where I believe I was Teachers' Quorum president and assistant to the bishop in Priests' Quorum. In the mission field, I never got higher than senior companion. I had to put up with different leadership styles. I always wanted to have a higher rank. Mormonism is very hierarchical, and the way to get status is to have high leadership positions. It is interesting that you left the Church or became inactive, since leaders tend to get an ego boost and have no desire to leave. The main reason I became inactive was because I learned that the Church wasn't true, but it wasn't that hard to become inactive because of the lack of self esteem non-leaders experience.

I should add that intimidation is a big part of Church leadership. I experienced intimidation most of the time when I tried to talk about my doubts to leaders. When you start to view leaders as imperfect humans rather than inspired people, you can evaluate the Church on evidence rather than on listening to somebody who appears high and mighty.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2016 01:55AM by behindcurtain.

(Claimed) inspiration or No, any LDS leader who doesn't toe the mark ('Church Broke') will be under the bus before anyone can say Tithing Settlement



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2016 02:53AM by GNPE.

I served in 3 bishoprics as a counselor. Two of the bishops were very sincere and did a good job. The third was a nice guy but had some weird ideas. Were they inspired? I didn't think so then and I sure don't now.

The worst bishop I ever had was a seminary teacher. He was very uninspiring. Overall I think the Church gets it right - that is I think they usually get the best man available for the job.

I think there may be something called intuition that some people have more than others but I don't see its source as supernatural. In fact I see it at work in women more than men. Maybe the Church should ordain women as bishops.

I see the 'bishops inspiration' in very much the same light as the spiritist medium's readings

some mediums actually believe the guff they are spouting and see their 'cold reading' abilities as something outside themselves

some mediums are simply fraudsters who recognise cold reading as a skill that they can develop and use.

the ratio of gullible mediums to fraudsters may or may not be applicable to the ratio of TBM bishops to the cynical businessman bishops

[I recognise that - technically - the bishops 'inspiration' would be more akin to 'warm reading' - but the similarity to the medium's skills is closer than most people would care to admit]

People believe what they want to believe.

When a leader gets it right, he's inspired, and when he's wrong, he's speaking as a man.

So my dog is insprired of god cuz he gets things right sometimes?

The cherry-picking is much of why I bailed. Couldn't do it anymore. Looks like some exmos still can.

When I shook the hand of N. Eldon Tanner he was unable to discern that I was a cigarette smoking, beer swilling serial masturbator....so I guess my answer to the question is FUCK NO!

RB

I observed the same problem but on my mission. We were told as missionaries that we should be blessed with baptisms by being obedient, faithful, working hard and being worthy. What I observed, however, was the missionaries who had the most baptisms were, not necessarily the ones who possessed those qualities but were the types who would have been good salesmen. Missionaries who were physically attractive, smart, manipulative, etc got baptisms. They were necessarily the most obedient or hard working. And many of them were not the greatest people either.

The missionaries who SHOULD have been blessed with baptisms often had few baptisms. I knew some missionaries who were pure souls, who followed the rules, were good and kind, and worked hard but didn't get hardly any baptisms.

You are very wise, Sam.

Very difficult for anyone that has enjoyed the benefits of being a leader in Mormonism to recognize the fraud. You succeeded where so very many have failed.

Well done.

Absolutely not.

My personal favorite demonstration of this:

My brother was married in the SLC temple in April 1981. I had returned from my mission at the very end of December in 1980, and by February of 1981 I had completely stopped attending church, and had told my bishop I was leaving the church and would never return.

Still, I wanted to attend my brother's wedding. And none of my family knew I had left, so I decided to see if I could bluff my way into the temple. And so, without a temple recommend of any kind, I headed to SLC from SoCal.

I showed up the morning of his wedding with my brother, my step-father, and my uncle (who was a fairly high-up, well known church official). I had my garments on for the first time in months.

First confirmation of no "inspiration" -- none of these priesthood holders had any clue that I was inactive, or that I didn't have a temple recommend, or that I'd been happily drinking alcohol and having unmarried sex for the past couple of months. Inspiration fail #1.

We went into the SLC temple, and the worker asked to see our recommends. I made a show of looking for mine in my wallet, and then acted distressed, saying I couldn't find it, and must have left it at home. Oh, no!

The worker hesitated for a moment, looked at my uncle (who he knew as a church official), and then said to him, "Maybe we can call his bishop..." Had they done so, my goose would have been cooked, as I'd stormed out of the bishop's office a few months prior, telling him I was leaving his cult and would never return.

Instead, big-wig uncle looks at my brother and step-dad (both of whom lived near me in SoCal), and said to the temple worker, "Brother XX, this young man just returned from a faithfully-served mission a few months ago, and I'm sure he has a recommend. I'm willing to vouch for him, as I'm sure these other two priesthood holders are." Which they did happily.

Of course, the worker took that as good enough, and let me right in. Inspiration failure #2.

Inspiration failure #3? Not a single person in the temple -- no workers, no attendees, no leaders -- questioned me being in there even though I was an apostate with no temple recommend who had "broken" the temple covenants.

Inspired? Ha.

If the question of inspiration is confined to the specific idea of revelation--no. When I had seminary instruction by Max Pinegar (twin brother of Rex) he outlined four grades of revelation, starting with open vision as the highest and least common and the HG's "still small voice" as the most common and lowest. I spent the ensuing 40 years looking for evidence in GC talks and reports all the way back to the Nauvoo period. Never found it. I was set apart for missionary work by SWK, then acting quorum president. It was one of the most bland, generic, and unprophetic pronouncements I'd ever had. The day I filed divorce papers I was given a blessing by my ex-bishop in the Church office bldg. In my mind I thought, if he says anything by inspiration about the issues we had been struggling with over the 19 years married to the feminist troll, I'll know he is inspired. The only thing to come out of his mouth was variations on dogmatic themes from his own views. Not one iota of relevance to the issues. I left his office and went to the courthouse to file papers.

In the process of bldg my first house, we temporarily moved into a new ward. I was asked to teach 15 yoa kids. I was completely out of my league and went to the SS superintendent for help. Instead of getting help I was released and called by the bishop to take Teacher Training. In council with the counselor, I told him I had already had that course twice. He stated they (the bishopric) did not know that, but they wanted me to take it a third time. I asked him if they had prayed about the decision. He said No. I then told him that unless they prayed about it and received inspiration that I should take it a third time I was not going to do so. I was blacklisted from all other callings while living in that area because I had refused to follow the bishopric, under the guise of them being "inspired." Over the years I remained a member, there were numerous instances of such "inspiration." A bishop who wanted me to negotiate my rent with the landlord (also a member) after a job layoff, in spite of my warning him I was liable to be evicted--which did happen. Priesthood leaders of various kinds who were always convinced of the rightness of their decisions because they were one of the "Lord's anointed" and God would back them up even if they were wrong. I had noticed the same kind of thinking within the mission presidency and thought at the time it was just an anomaly.

I saw a lot of people's lives destroyed, and nearly mine as well during membership in the corporation. Life has been far more peaceful and rewarding this last decade free of that farcical charade. Since, I have relied on critical thinking, analysis, and deliberation, especially so during those moments when I have an unexplained impression to make an immediate decision. And life has been far more stable and sensible. Never a week passes without celebrating the freedom petty tyrants.

They really fucked up a bunch of lives and still are over gay/straight marriage, let alone gay marriage.

A bishop told my abused, doormat mother that she needed to be more submissive. May he rot in the hell I don't believe in.

I moved to a new ward and was immediately called to be homemaking leader--a huge job. The man said he'd prayed and received revelation that I was supposed to have this job. I was four months pregnant and working full time nights. I was super TBM, but I told him I could not and I would consider being an assistant. He seemed thrilled.

My first visiting teaching sister told us this same man had called her to be Homemaking leader using the EXACT SAME words.

Two weeks later, her family moved to Japan.

I could go on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2016 04:55PM by Dorothy.