Well, my wife and I have decided to go the way of counseling, and to help her feel better (and to save money) we've decided to go through the church.

It's funny - our personalities are completely compatible. We love each other so much. There was never a hint of anything other than the perfect marriage for years until the day I realized the church was a sham. Now she sometimes says she's not sure how she could love me if, had she known that I was going to go atheist, she never would have married me. Then she realizes that she actually does love me, but she still wouldn't have married me.

I asked her why she doesn't want to study the history of the church with me, and she said that she doesn't think she is strong enough, and she would only do it with someone who would give her the right perspective, such as a BYU-Idaho professor she greatly respected.

I told her that she is the #1 priority in my life right now, and she said that she wished she could say the same, but God was always a higher priority. The kids are now #2.

We used to talk about anything and everything - no holding back. Now it's degenerated to the occasional conversation about my beliefs, which always ends with her feeling hurt, or guilty that she's not smart enough to defend the church properly. So I do my best to refrain from faith-destroying comments, I take the kids to church and hold family prayer, and do my best to make sure that my wife is a happy as she can be.

What sucks about it all is that we totally love eachother and are completely compatible in every other way. The only difference is that faith is the most important thing to her - far more important than reason - and my reason damages her faith. Plus, the last time she lost her faith she went into a suicidal depression, and I'm not willing to put her through that again.

So we're off to counseling to see if there's anything we can do to keep open communication with eachother. I'm pretty sure that I'm willing and anxious to discuss anything and everything with her like we always did. I try to tell her that from time to time. But she always gets offended when I discuss my thoughts, and she thinks I always discredit her thoughts too quickly. I think I need to work on that. It's tough, though, when she says things like "polygamy was the best thing for women at the time because it allowed them to get more education," and "marrying teenagers was normal for old men in that time period."

By way of example this past Sunday on the way to church she was talking about how she couldn't see herself ever moving back to Utah, because everyone there is so underpaid. I had a new thought in that moment and said "I wonder if tithing is keeping the economy down, causing people to have less money to spend." She got visibly upset and said "except that studies show that people who give more to charities make more money." I reponded "that may be true outside of Utah, but the people in Utah are underpaid." She then went on to suggest that the real reason is because people want to stay in Utah so badly that they're willing to work for less, for which I responded that that would be the case if there was a shortage of industry, and the conversation ended. She might have felt vindicated when the youth speaker, half an hour later, taught us that tithing has everything to do with the spirit and nothing to do with money.

She became really disappointed in me the other day when we decided to be open with eachother for a while, and I said that while I was willing to teach our children not to have sex until they're married, I wasn't going to teach them that pornography and masturbation are wrong. I discussed the reasons why, and all I could see on her face was a fear that she could never trust a man again. I admitted that I had look at some, and later that day a few links to overcoming pornography addiction appeared on her bookmarks list. Intimacy is now out the window.

I can see myself changing in her eyes to something that is the opposite of what she married, but inside I still feel like the same person. The only thing that has changed is I have been exposed to a little more information, and I have redefined my values accordingly.

Am I doing something wrong? Should I keep my mouth shut and support her more in her faith? Should I be more honest with her even though it causes her such trauma, and to have less love for me? Should I hypnotize myself back into the box of mormon belief and be miserable, since she's more important than my own happiness anyway? Hopefully the counsellor will have some good advice.

Your wife sounds like I did when my husband "came out" to me. I dismissed polygamy when my husband compaired JS to Warren Jeffs, I kept paying tithing out of my small income when he told me he would stop paying tithing from his, I was mortified about masturbation when my husband told me it was normal.

I don't have any advice for you. In my case (and I am going to post my story soon) I wanted to bring my husband back, so I was curious about his issues. He was patient with me while I struggled with hanging on to the faith but realizing it was all bogus. I'm sure he wanted to strangle me at times. :)

Good luck to you and keep us posted.

While the specifics are different, the generalities of what you are going through are exactly what I'm dealing with at home. We've got our first appt with someone at LDSSS this friday.

When I come home from work, I am greated by a wife with sadness in her eyes instead of the joy I used to see. She doesn't sleep anymore. She told me that she wouldn't have married me if she knew the situation I would be in years later.

She does love me. She tells me that she needs me to be 100% honest with myself, to live a true life. But at the same time, she knows that doing that will kill her, tear her apart, since that means I won't pay tithing, I'll have the occaisional drink of wine, I won't go to church anymore, can't take her to the temple, etc.

Each situation is different. What I am doing in mine might not work in yours. I am choosing to support her by helping her get the kids ready for church, making sure dinner gets blessed, little things like that. I'm compromising and trying LDSSS as a first option for counseling. And I make sure she still knows that I'm a good person, a good husband and father. It's all I can do. If she still chooses to leave, and she's made it clear that that's still a possibility, at least I'll be able to say that I did all I could to keep things together.

I've got no real advice for you since I'm down in it with you. Just know that you aren't alone.

Right back atcha.

When she says something that you want to comment on at length, say,"Hmm, I'll have to think about that.' Then, when you are having a quiet time together, such as relaxing at the end of the day, casually bring up her comment, and throw out part of what you want to tell her. Then, if she comments without seeming threatened, you can gradually add more of what you want to tell her. Maybe even do it as you are both lying in bed resting. Talking while not looking her in the eye may be less threatening, too

I'm actually in a fairly similar situation as well -- we met with an LDS Family Services counselor for a while. I stopped the visits because I wasn't even sure I wanted to be married anymore (fortunately we don't have kids yet though).

I've been thinking today about whether I want to pursue a divorce or not...

Anyway, I can definitely tell you the right answer for your last question: DON'T go back to Mormonism. You won't be happy, and it won't work. Don't say you believe anything that you don't. Don't agree with things that you don't feel good about, but always be very respectful. Be cautious, even if it's hard.

As far as how open and honest to be with her, I wish I knew. Good luck with the counselor, I definitely found the counseling sessions to be beneficial because they helped us both to open up, and feel more understood.

I wish you the best.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2011 06:03PM by bubbleboy.

You're still the same person. What's changed is that the cult went from "true" to "false."

I've been married to a nevermo for 32 years. We've both changed. Neither of us is the same person we married. Its the nature of relationships.

We were both at the Office of Veteran Affairs today checking-out our few remaining benefits (we're both vets). I was raised mormon, Beloved was raised fundy christian. It was kinda funny reviewing the paperwork we signed thirty-five years ago. When asked to identify our individual religious preference, we both responded with code 01 (none).

I don't believe a relationship of the marriage variety can work unless both parties can openly discuss everything. Its not a "compromise" to go the LDS route. In the case of marriage counceling, its the worst possible choice. There will be bias that leans favorably toward the cult. The cult, by the way, is a third party that insists on being the second party when a marriage - a party of two - is at risk. Just another example of how the cult butts-in where its presence is not required or requested.

Humans are not nearly as fragile as they make themselves out to be. You've done nothing wrong. You haven't changed. You didn't leave your tribe nor are you attempting to do others harm. The information you operated from turned out to be faulty. Those who gave you that information didn't give it enough thought. You're married to your spouse, not the cult, not your parents, not your in-laws, not even your children. Don't play games.

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2011 06:24PM by Timothy.

She doesn't want to hear that and she's not ready for it.

On the other hand, I think you SHOULD talk about your feelings honestly and forthrightly. Let her know you love her dearly and that hasn't changed. Let her know it hurts you when she looks at you with suspicion when you've never given her an honest reason to suspect her. Let her know you feel like she is offering conditional love and that it makes you sad that you've lost your closeness. Focus on your relationship as much as possible and not on the church if at all possible.

(Just my unprofessional two cents worth. I hope it works out between you two. You seem to love her very much.)

Jake's mormon beliefs caused us to divorce...he wouldn't do without them and I couldn't live with them.

Be gentle with her...you are in no mans land right now south no gps..good luck

stormy

Kimball's DW needs to accept a man who has changed his beliefs.

Kimball needs to accept a woman who may never change her beliefs.

Now, do you think both are going to happen through LDSSS?

If it doesn't (likely) Kimball should be researching Plan B with a secular counselor.

Divorce is far, far more expensive than a marriage counselor outside of LSDSS. Think of your priorities!

Best of luck.

My heart goes out to you...

It is easy to see how much you love your wife. It's just horrible that the LDS virus is deteriorating y'alls communication. She desperately wants to stay with you, and seems to be trying as hard as hell to reconcile TSCCs teachings with her love and acceptance for you.

The fact she is willing to get counseling shows she really wants to find a way to keep it working.

Have you considered showing her what you posted? It might say things in a way she hasn't heard from you.

Quite honestly, it was beautifully written...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2011 08:40PM by Lost Mystic.

Real genuine love isn't conditional.

I question if she really loves you. Hard to take, but better now than after having TSCC counselors convince her it's all your fault.

Should I keep my mouth shut???...well yes, about pornography and connecting that with the word children.DUH!! She is sure you will expose them to it now when they are older. That was not too bright. Her love for you is Church first, then kids, then maybe you??? SO you are okay with that? I would never be.

She loves her church so much and says so and tells you you are not in the top two? I would reassess if you are really compatible. YOU do not seem to be right for one another when she won't let you speak your mind and feels she must have a BYU professor around to speak her case. ReallY?

Divorce is to be avoided if possible but if the counseling goes nowhere then look at that as a sign. She doesn't want to mediate anything. And what is this about church counseling. Mormons counsel atheists? Wow...who knew?

She needs time to process these changes... many spouses DO come around, but it takes a boatload of patience. If LDSSS is all she will accept and feel comfortable with for now, so be it.

But seriously, dude, keep the porn OUT of it:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,193308,193308#msg-193308

You do realize that LDSSS will totally be on her side and everything wrong with the marriage can be fixed if only you'll come back to church. Meeting with them will do everything to bolster her point of view and nothing to support yours.

Good luck.

We went to LDSSS before we got married--or my ex did--and when I was worried about marrying him--could it really work, he said, "Sure! There will be problems along the way, but it can work." (I married someone gay.) It was a few weeks before the wedding that I went to see this guy. I remember standing out in the parking lot saying, "I can't do this, I can't do this" and my ex talking me into going in to talk to him. The LDSSS therapist had a really bad problem with depression and eventually quit being an LDSSS therapist (wonder why).

THEN we went to an LDS therapist when our marriage was falling apart and he told me that a man who likes to have sex with animals doesn't have to stop and have sex with every cow in the field, so my ex could stop himself from having sex with men. This man (who used to work in the same office as my present therapist) still believes in reparative therapy and he is also the man who told my ex to leave me and he left that day. We didn't get a choice of "figure out what we wanted." We are both still angry at the man.

My therapist actually is featured on John Dehlin's web site. He gave a presentation at the conference they had in New York. It is a very good presentation and one you might want to listen to. He counsels with many mormons. I think he said about 60% of his patients are mormons. He is on mormon stories (is that the right web site) and he is one of the smartest men I know. You might just listen.

My wife will never change. I am "wrong" and she won't even pick up the BOM and read it (in exasperation I "challenged" her to do that hoping she would see how silly the book is, which is what I felt the last time I read it cover to cover) let alone pick up BH Robert's "Book of Mormon Studies". She is just not able to grasp the intellectual meaning of stuff. Not to nice to say, but true. So I have to make the best of bad situation. You might be stuck there also.

Just my opinion ..... but any counseling with LDS counselors is a big FAIL if you both aren't TBMs. You're wasting time, money, and everything by going this route.

Plus another one for what Rebeckah said above.
I am in the same boat. I have learned that as long as the subject is avoided, we seem to get along fine. It takes time. You need to show her that you are still the same person inside, and that you still love her. Don't say anything that would insinuate that you think her beliefs are stupid.
Instead, try to show her the value of critical thinking, without introducing religion into that arena.
Someone on here once compared the church to one of those posters where all you see at first are colors and patterns, but when you change your focus, a picture emerges. No one can show you the picture, you have to see it for yourself. The church is the same way. People need to come to their own conclusions.
As far as any marriage goes, compromise is key, and you have to choose your battles.

Especially in Morland, where RELIGION DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH LOVE!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2011 05:51PM by guynoirprivateeye.