I've been reading the responses about being judgemental.

I wanted to reply to MJ and others.

I would NEVER tell him what decision he should have made in this situation, and I would never want to be in this situation. I just felt uncomfortable with how it was done. His facebook posts, his trying to get her kids to hurry up and say goodbye, the way the doctors wanted to do more surgery, but he said he couldn't handle it. I'm not saying what he should or shouldn't do, but I am saying how I feel.

I do have some anger surrounding our divorce, but it has been over five years. My reaction is not anger over the divorce (I actually have a partner and two more children since the divorce), but I know what his decision-making process is like because I saw it so many times over the years. He is like water flowing downhill, in our 10 years of marriage, he showed himself to take the easy way out every time. Whether he eventually made this decision or not, I'm uncomfortable with how he did it.

I texted him and asked him to please give her children and mother as much time as they needed to say goodbye because he only made the decision that day and they weren't ready (although I'm not sure how ready they ever could be).


So you can judge me for being judgemental, but I'm just glad he has no power in my medical decisions.

For the record, I would want any possible surgery and I would want my children to have as long as they needed to say goodbye. I would want my mother and sisters input and agreement that it is time to take me off life support.

I'm sorry for your pain and that of so many family members.

Thankfully you and your kids are in a safe place to heal and recover.

No need to esplain or justify your feelings. Take care.

In message

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,193476,193703#msg-193703

You stated "Yes, that's what she had, and she could blink. It was just the way that it happened, how he asked everyone to leave and asked her the question, then how his family questioned him."

So nobody including yourself ever bothered to ask her the same question???? The Doctors didn't? Her family didn't? You didn't?

If she could communicate via blinking, didn't anyone, including the Dr.s think to confirm that that is indeed what she wanted?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2011 09:07AM by MJ.

I am her husband's ex-wife. I wasn't in the room.

The information that I have is from him and his family. I also have second-hand information from my children who are 13 and 9.

I know he was in a big rush to get her children to say goodbye and her family was upset and wanting to wait, questioning his decision. I also know I watched his faulty decision-making abilities for 10 years.

He described it to me, and his intent was to make it sound like an intimate moment between the two of them. He wanted me to be moved by the intimacy of the moment, but I just thought, 'why is he in such a hurry?' 'why can't he wait?' 'why not try one more surgery? He's already financially devastated by this, he had no health insurance for her' 'what if she accidentally blinked'

He was her husband, so he had the ultimate decision-making responsiblitiy unless she could say otherwise.

MJ, I understand where you come from. I can see the mistake in making a quick judgement about someone who had to make a difficult decision. I feel sad for him, for her family, for her children, but I am just uncomfortable with the way it all went down.

Thanks everyone for letting me talk about this.

It is over now, and she has died. Her funeral is late this week. I probably will not go, I don't think it is my place to be there.

Regardless of if you had access to her, lots of other people, evidently including her family and the Drs had a chance to ask the same question. If HER family was wanting him to wait, why didn't they ask the question or get the Dr's to answer the question?

If her mind was active, as you say in your first post, and she could communicate, as you say, then I would think there is a serious question in regards to the husband making the decision for a wife who's "brain was functioning normally" and who could communicate. If her mind was "functioning normally" and she could communicate her wishes, then SHE, not HE should be the one saying when the plug was pulled.

I am not saying you are being deceitful, but it is obvious to me that you have strong negative feelings toward the man, this is a very emotionally charged time and perhaps old feelings are clouding your judgment. This, combined with the stated fact that you are getting all of this via second hand seems to indicate that you are making emotional judgments and it may be a good idea to step back and wait till your emotions have calmed down before you make all sorts of accusations on the internet.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2011 10:01AM by MJ.

Exactly what are the "all sorts of accusations"?

I would suggest you read what you posted at the very start with an eye on where you made statements that would indicate that you thought he did something wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2011 10:15AM by MJ.

If I thought he had killed her wrongly, I'd have called the police, not posted here.

I just feel creepy about how it all happened.

And yes, I said FEEL. I didn't scientifically come to the conclusion that the situation was creepy, I didn't research about how others react, I didn't consult webster about the definition of 'creepy.'

No. Is that the only thing you could be saying he did wrong? NO.

i agree with Lindi here.... and nobody really knows the thought process that the OP ex had..but the op MAY be correct about the thought process... it does sound kind of quick at three weeks she was taken off the life support.... but i would not judge anybody including the op..... let me just say that the OP's FEELINGS should not be invalidated by anyone.... whether or not her conclusions are correct...only the ex knows!

i mean he actually used FB to say good bye to her?? did i get that right?
from MJ:
Seriously, there are way more important issues regarding how to judge this than if the guy posted on facebook, like why didn't anyone else ask the woman to confirm that this is what she wanted, could she only blink for her husband?

well MJ brings up a good point!

I have on friend on face book that is now dealing with the failing health of a parent that is expected to pass away at any time. He has posted a number of expressions of grief as well as the progress of his mother's illness.

It is one thing to update family and friends from time-to-time on one's health status. It is quite another to Facebook a death bed-side as it occurs. That is how I read it. I'm uncomfortable with that scenario. That doesn't make me judgemental, that means I have a different level of comfort than you.

Of course I understand that he was dealing with grief and pain and that was a way he tried to deal with it. I for one have no problem with that. What ever it takes for him to get though the process.

He posted right before they removed life support:

"XXX ITS TIME TO GO!!!! LOVE U ALWAYS!!!" about 7:30 pm.
There were about 28 comments, to which he answered, "thanks guys;)"

At 1am, he posted "XXX is still hanging on."

He posted again when she died at 6am.

Less than 24 hours before they removed life support, he wrote

7pm "Update on XXX....XXX seems to be more responsive with her eyes. Had a good talk with the doctor today and he said to give her more time, that each person responds different and to tell how it will effect her is unperdictable She blinked twice today when I asked her if she wanted to listen to her top 25 play list. Trake is still schedule for Monday and her vitals still normal."

Then, he just suddenly decided on Sunday (in the morning, I left at 10am to bring my kids after he called me).


Saturday night (removed life support Sunday) he posted:
"Eating dinner with some friends...thanks"
his sister commented "Last time you got free dinner there! Did you work your magic this time?"
he replied "I tried, couldn't cry.....Don't have any more tears:'("

That a post like "seems to be more responsive with her eyes..." may have been wishful thinking and hope? That maybe he had read more hope into what the doctors had said?

I know that when my mother was about to die I would cling to incredibly minuscule even imagined things trying to have hope.

Could it be possible that he was doing the same thing and that 24 hours later he realized, or the doctors made something clear?

Anon- I don't think you're being judgemental at all. I too, work in the healthcare field and know enough to know that every situation is different. While I don't know the complete story, that is not the point.
The point is, you were married to him for 10+ years, which gives you a good understanding of how he makes decions and conducts his life. The fact that someone you know to have narcissistic tendencies can have the power of life or death over someone is creepy and unsettling, right or wrong. Your feelings are valid. You know him, we don't. Although we can't second guess his decision, we can support your feelings of being weirded out by the situation.
Even medical professionals judge, and yes, we tend to see the benefits of not sustaining a life on support. Having worked with quite a few people who have been kept alive for months and years, it truly is sad.
However, my experience in no way undoes yours and if you were creeped out, you probably had good reason. I wouldn't want a man who Facebooked my death as it occurred to have power over me, either. But, that's just me. Maybe MJ and others would feel comfortable with that, which is fine. It's not ok with you and others of us and that doesn't make us judgemental, it makes us different in that aspect of life.

In marrying the man she made the statement that she wanted him to speak on her behalf in the case that she was incapacitated. The posting of Face Book has nothing to do with that. Maybe you are uncomfortable recognizing that commitment and bond, I am not.

Seriously, there are way more important issues regarding how to judge this than if the guy posted on facebook, like why didn't anyone else ask the woman to confirm that this is what she wanted, could she only blink for her husband?

\

MJ - plenty of marriages fail and often, people turn out to not be who we think they are after the vows have been spoken. We don't know how long they knew each other, we don't know what their relationship was like. But, again, that is beside the point.
The point is this: Anon was married to this man, she knows him to be narcissistic, and she felt uncomfortable by the way he handled the situation. Probably a huge part of her discomfort was the fact this could have been her at some point in her life.
Anon is venting some feelings about the situation, and obviously, they come from her experiences. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that.
Would it be wrong of her to interfere in the situation? Yes. Would it be wrong of her to smear her ex to their children? Yes. To my knowledge, she has done none of those things. Instead, she anonymously posted about the situation to relieve some of the feelings she was having. Seems like a pretty healthy way to work through her feelings.
She's allowed to view this situation from her own perspective as is anyone else. Why are you so uncomfortable with that when you know nothing about the situation except what she has told you? For all you know, she could be 100% correct. Why is she not allowed to have an opinion different than you?

Then your point about marriages failing isn't valid. Their marriage was still valid according to the law. You would be making assumptions to state that this was a case of failed marriage.

Anon is DEVOICED from this man, she has made expressions that make me believe she still bears animosity toward the man, perhaps Anon's view is tainted because of her failed marriage and Anon is just projecting her experience on to this, perhaps?

MJ- this isn't about the state of the deceased and her spouses marriage. No one knows and would be pure speculation to try to guess. But , if you're stating that all marriages are happy until divorce occurs, well.....you're not married, are you?
I'm not saying anon doesn't have animosity towards the man. there usually is some animosity in divorce.
Having gone through a divorce, I know there are times when my ex does something to really creep me out. Most of the time I pay no attention to what he does. And most of the time our relationship is fine.
If you are arguing that Anon has no right to an opinion or feelings about this situation because of her past experience with her ex, then I must disagree.

We DO know they were married which gives the husband the right to make the decision for the wife IF she is indeed incapacitated.

That is KNOWN, it is NOT speculation.

Anon is the one making the ex-husband's decision an issue for the whole internet to discuss.

If you read my other posts, you would note that I am not saying that Anon does not have the right to her feelings, I have stated that perhaps here feelings are clouding her judgment. To me, looking at what she has said with an unemotional view, what she is saying does not add up suggesting to me that she may well be basing her decisions on highly charged emotions and not upon the true facts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2011 09:59AM by MJ.

Anon states that the wife's brain was "functioning normally" and that the wife could communicate her wants via blinking. If the wife's brain was functioning normally and she could communicate, then her husband should not have had the power to tell the doctors to pull the plug.

So, either the claim that the wife's brain was functioning normally and she could communicate is false or the claim that the husband had the right to pull the plug is not true.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2011 10:08AM by MJ.

Thank you, bignevermo. That's exactly the point: we don't know. Anon just needed an outlet for her feelings. Whether she's right or wrong is beside the point and a conclusion none of us on this board can surmise with no direct involvement.
As a fellow ex-mo, I am here to offer support and friendship, not tear down.

You would have noted that I stated that nobody here knows, including the OP, what really when on.

That said, we can look at what Anon HAS said to see if what she is saying makes sense, you know, to see if she may be letting emotions cloud her judgment.

What I see is that Anon has said that the wife's brain was functioning normally and that the wife could communicate her wishes in this matter. If that was the case, then the husband should not be the one making the decision to pull the plug.

So, judging by that, I would say that the story as we are being told has at least one serious flaw.

So, the story as we have been told is not a very good tool to make any judgments about what went on, a point I made more than once earlier.

I also am not trying to deny Anon's feelings, in fact, I am trying to point out that her negative emotions regarding her husband and her obviously strong feelings what when on may well be clouding her judgment as to what went on.

MJ - we get it; you're an analytical thinker. You want cold, hard facts, otherwise you refuse to validate another person's feelings. Fine. However, this is not a court of law and Anon doesn't have to prove anything to you.
I think we can all acknowledge that feelings are more of a gut reaction than anything necessarily based on cold, hard facts. So, you can do one of two things here: you can support anons feelings in an uncritical, non-judgemental way by saying something like "it sounds like this is en emotional time for you, I wish you all the best" or you can follow your natural instinct and say something like this "based on the facts you've presented and the fact I work in the medical field, it doesn't sound like anything was out of line. I hope you find some reassurance in my assessment. Best of luck."

Haha, MJ works in the medical field.

I work in the counseling field, where we value feelings to inform us (either of ourselves or outside ourselves.)

Feelings are what I do, and I won't ignore them or negate them because someone wants to attack me.

And that while emotions may be a GUIDE, the are not a good indicator of the truth.

Seriously, MJ? You, of ALL PEOPLE, are preaching that making judgments in a highly emotionally charged state is a BAD IDEA. That is so rich!

You are way emotionally invested in this. Have you had to "pull the plug" on someone or did you just wake up with your panties in a twist.

The OP has a right to her opinion. Who are you to judge her? You want her ex to be cut some slack? How about you make a date and comfort him? Preferably when you are not feeling well and need someone to make some medical decisions for you.

To the OP, you owe MJ nothing. He goes off on people all the time. He has a right to his opinion, but it is not unexpected that he goes on a judgmental attack of someone who is in an emotional state, all the while preaching that others shouldn't do the very thing he's doing.

I'm sorry you and your kids are going through this. My best to you.

Before you go off on me, you may want to read my posts on this and the other thread. I have explained my dealings with pulling the plug their.

Yes, the OP has the right to her opinion, but she came her to DISCUSS that opinion, which gives us the right to comment on it. I am NOT judging her for having feelings.

If you can find some actual flaw in what I have said, please do so.

I, for one, see great value in giving "wait for cooler heads to prevail" sort of advice in this situation. Franky I am STUNNED at the number of people on this board that have a problem with giving such advice.

MJ said: "she may well be basing her decisions on highly charged emotions and not upon the true facts."

Yep. I am totally basing my decisions on highly charged emotions. That's why I came on here to process them. I don't want to talk about them in front of my kids, I don't want them to have doubts about their father (they don't need that, it woudn't help them).

But I have absolutely told everything that I know truthfully.

MJ, you seem like you have an axe to grind. What's the point of attacking someone who is trying to obtain support during a difficult time? I don't get it.

But you sure seem to, else you would have addressed my points about "If her mind was active, as you say in your first post, and she could communicate, as you say, then I would think there is a serious question in regards to the husband making the decision for a wife who's "brain was functioning normally" and who could communicate. If her mind was "functioning normally" and she could communicate her wishes, then SHE, not HE should be the one saying when the plug was pulled."

Perhaps you may want to take a breath and let your emotions calm down before you go attacking me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2011 10:30AM by MJ.

and then you go about dismissing that very thing by trying to analyse a situation you dont really know that much about..... and you seem to want to reason your way thru this.....it cant be done because we are talking about feelings..... logic is not very useful here!

I make no such claim. I do point out that the story as related to us is flawed, thus NOBODY should be making a judgment based on that story. What I am analyzing are the STATEMENTS WE HAVE BEEN TOLD. The analysis indicates that what we have been told to this point is contradictory, so we should not make judgments based on a contradictory story...

So, why do you have a problem with that?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2011 11:14AM by MJ.

This thread and the other one were about YOU and YOUR feelings which are raw and rightfully so. Please know that many RfMers are sending you supportive thoughts and hoping for the best with you and your kiddies.

And sometimes in supporting people that are having strong feelings it is important to say that your feelings may be affecting judgment and perceptions.

Often when people are having strong feelings, they perceive something wrong that causes even more intense powerful feelings, which causes more false preceptors, and on and on.

Sometimes it is important to point out that the strong emotions could well be causing incorrect judgments that only exacerbate the feelings.

What specifically is flawed in what I have said?

Can strong emotions lead to bad judgments that make the emotional situation worse? Yes, they can. Getting someone that is strongly emotional to acknowledge this and step back from making judgments until cooler heads prevail has worked for me when people have done it to me and it has worked for others that I have supported though this process.

I am sorry that you seem to think advising someone that is highly emotional not to rush to judgment and to wait until emotions subside before making judgeships is a bad idea. I think advising people to wait until cooler heads can prevail is a good idea.

MJ- I think the part that your missing is the fact that this is the way for her to sort out her feelings. I understand you want her to realize that feelings are irrational, but I think she already understands that. Otherwise, she would have done more to act on her feelings then just vent here. :)

I am trying to say not to make judgments while highly emotionally charged.

Can you understand that this is not the same thing as saying that her feelings are irrational or wrong?

Have you ever heard the Phase "wait until cooler heads prevail"? Do you understand why that is good advice?

Also - Anon, I just saw your post about his facebook statuses. I too, would be unsettled. Not saying he's done anything wrong, just saying its all a little strange. Glad you don't have to worry about any future health crisis being handled by this man. Best of luck to you!

I would think people here should cut him the same sort of slack they are demanding for Anon.

And no, I am not saying that people should not be unsettled, only do realize that he is dealing with other things more important than worrying about how a post on facebook would be revived.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2011 11:28AM by MJ.

so sometimes it is incumbent upon "us"/me to just give a little insight into how you operate!! :) and it seems to me it is you that you like to make these posts about..... oh look at me.... i am sir logic!! logic should not be used when dealing with emotions! or are you a Vulcan?

NOT. That somehow makes me wrong? NOT.

All your making it personal shows is that you can not make a valid point about what is being said.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2011 11:25AM by MJ.

THAT I POINT OUT THINGS...THAT ARE TRUE IN MY ESTIMATION???!!
OH MY THE HORROR THE HORROR!!!
all my points are vaild.... and even other people think so to ...so there!! have a nice day mr. victim!!

It only indicates that you can not win based on your ideas.

its all about "winning aint it??? sad..... <<sigh>>

Amen, bignevermo. It's a never-ending party when MJ irrationally demands he be validated as the voice of reason.

He's claiming YOU are making it about him rather than about ideas. I guess his calling the OP judgmental was about ideas rather than about calling her names. Pay no attention to the double standard. It's MJ, after all.

p.s. I always enjoy your posts and love having the nevermo presence on the board.

Or are you just another person that can't discuss ideas?

I read the previous thread as well as this one, and if I understand correctly you are simply processing your thoughts and feelings and you have no intention of *doing* anything. You have not identified the ex-husband or his deceased wife.

This is a really difficult time for you and it has triggered feelings and memories for you about what it was like to live with your ex-husband. I don't know how anyone could expect anything else. I would also point out to your critics and those who say you don't have the full story that it doesn't matter. You are expressing your feelings, not making a decision to act on.

I'd also point out that when someone is very emotional, it is a very bad time to try to "reason" with them. It doesn't accomplish anything but causes them to feel discounted. "Reason," if needed, comes later.

I hope you will find some comfort and support in this.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2011 11:59AM by robertb.

And getting it back to IDEAS.