Excellent points from other thread.

Also for me this "continuing revelation" nonsense never helped. I felt like you could never rely on god or the "priesthood" and have real boundaries because he could change his mind on a whim. I felt like I could never make a life plan because what if god decided he'd had enough, came back and went all 3rd Nephi on us all and we all got burned and killed, then what was the point in worrying about that ACT test? Or what if they called us back to zion, or heaven knows what else. There is no security when the "leaders" are telling you..."this is how it is unless I change my mind". How can you plan for you when if it all changes you have to comply?

Wow! I had no idea this would generate such emotion. It was just an interesting observation after being out for a couple of years to go back and see it from a different perspective. When I was in, I always tried to dress nicely and tried to keep myself attractive and fit because it made me feel good about myself, not because I was trying to one-up the other ladies or impress the men. I really feel that your outer appearance can say so much about your inner confidence. I also really appreciate "Westernwillows" response. I completely agree that taking time to care how you look definitely affects how you feel inside as well. Women should dress nicely for THEMSELVES, and for no other reason. We are so hard on ourselves and we need to give ourselves permission to look and feel good. Again, not because we are trying to impress or be superficial or sexist, just because when a person takes the time to improve themselves, physically, mentally, spiritually it's just good therapy!
And it doesn't matter if you are 98 lbs, or 398 lbs. You can still dress like you care about yourself and present to the world a picture of confidence and happiness. Put on your make-up, wear that flirty little dress and the high heels. What are you waiting for?!

When women looks like the life has been sucked out of them (and I know that for many, it has) it's so sad. I want to take them for a make-over just so they can feel good about themselves again and realize it's OK to place themselves on top priority. Life is supposed to be full of joy, not full of guilt and self deprivation.

So come on ladies of all sizes! Let's look like we care and share with the world some happiness. It makes others happy when they are in the company of others who exude happiness both inside and out!

The whole "put on your makeup" assumption annoys me, though. Why should I have to paint a mask on my face to justify worth? I see it all the time - put on makeup to make yourself feel beautiful.

I can't stand makeup. It makes me feel like I need to wash my face. I've tried many techniques, many styles - including just putting on some mascara. Makeup is NOT me. It makes me feel like I'm trying to hide behind a mask. It does anything but give me confidence or feel beautiful. In fact, it makes me feel like I'm trying to live a lie and pretend I'm something that I'm not.

Being me - the way I like to dress, the lack of makeup, the lack of heels, is what gives me confidence. I am *me*. If that makes me frumpy or unattractive to someone, no worries. I'm not in the world to please the ideals of other people.

And we never tell men to put on their makeup or their foot-bindings.

I love to cook, and I love to taste. I'm a great cook and enjoy cooking for friends and family. I was not fat when I had my many children and was going to church. But, if you gain a pound a year, then guess what you weigh when you are 80 (not that I'm 80) And one pound is not much weight to put on each year.

I also like to be comfortable. I refuse to wear heels, because I know I'll be unable to walk the next day, and that's not an exaggeration. I like loose comfortable clothing, and I'm not sorry that it makes me look frumpy. I don't care.

I try to dress up a little bit when I go somewhere, but not all that much. I just look at the "stylish---put together" young women who spend half their time on their appearance and think of all the things they could have accomplished if they hadn't spent so many hours in front of the mirror.

This is mostly in response to thread #1 which (imo) went a bit crazy pointing fingers at frumpiness.

It's all in the eye make up. You can wear anything if your eyes look good. It doesn't time at all to do those neat smokey eyes..just a little practice and off you go.

That said. I love jeans and a good t-neck or a tailored t with a collar. But I will not leave the house without my eye make up. Yep, it's vanity and yep it's a catholic sin and yep Father is tried of hearing it in confession.

stormy

Wow, congrats, dimmesdale, you just hit the white trash old lady Trifecta: overweight, tasteless clothing, and a "I don't give a shit you can look the other way" attitude.

Here's lifting my 40 to ya!

Hey, do you have really bad toenail fungus that you don't do anything about and just show off to everyone at the grocery store by only wearing flip flops all the time? Well, with that and your other premium white trash qualities, you could win a prize. You like NASCAR? Well, just show up at the next event, strut your trashy stuff, you could win free tickets for life!

I bite my toenails.

since it would be impossible to lift my foot to my mouth over my grotesquely overweight and disgustingly frumpy body.

Sorry I wasn't clear.

"white trash country girl" is a troll and an asshole.

Little girl, this is a grown-up place, not a place to have temper tantrums. Run along now before you get a good whooping.

How do you know it takes "hours in front of the mirror?"

Starting with a shower, I can be put together, hair done, full makeup, accessories/jewelry and out the door in 45 minutes.



Unrelated comment:

A couple years ago, I was feeling a little bit lonely and depressed. I'd been working on losing 40 pounds -- had lost 15 -- but was feeling unmotivated about it. (Like, why bother?) I decided that, if I indulged myself in that sort of self-destructive thinking, I'd find myself frumpier and fatter than I'd ever been as a mormon (was never overweight as a mormon, mostly because I left just after high school).

So I went out for some retail therapy and bought some new stuff. Started really dressing up in well-put-together outfits for work: suits, skirts & blazers, the whole nine. And I learned another thing: no matter what you weigh, great shoes are great shoes and still look great. So I started "collecting" cute and sexy shoes.

One day a coworker passed me in the hallway and asked if I had a new man in my life. At that time, I did not. I asked why he asked. He told me, "You've been looking so good lately, I thought maybe you had a new love interest." I thanked him and said, "Nope, just trying to feel good about myself."

And it worked. I DID feel so much better about myself when I spent five extra minutes for a little makeup and five extra minutes to really think through and put together an outfit instead of just grabbing the nearest 1-piece article of clothing I could get my hands on. My hemlines started creeping up and the heels started getting higher and strappier.

Note that I did not start out feeling awesome about myself. But I knew how much better about me I felt when I took the time to dress up, so I started doing it more.

good about themselves?
Food for thought. Maybe our value as human beings shouldn't be based so much on appearance.

Here's how Extreme things can go...
Some of us men think Frumpiness is a look some (weird?) women actually TRY TO ACHIEVE!

When I was in my teens and 20s, my mom was very overweight and wore very frumpy clothes with sensible shoes. She was also not happy in her marriage with my nevermo dad. She told me more than once that she didn't really want to lose weight or become more stylish because then men would be attracted to her (and they probably would - she's smart and very cute when skinny. She was a sorority girl type in her pre-Mormon days.) And she told me she would probably be too tempted by men being attracted to her because she was so unhappy with my dad. She said she didn't want to risk having an affair and breaking her covenants to God so it was better for her to be fat and frumpy and avoid temptation altogether.

I thought this was seriously messed up even then.

It's pretty simple for me!

:)

that so many people seem to have so much time to judge how frumpy other people look.

I'm comfortable. I'm clean (except when I'm in the garden). I'm not spending lots of money for new clothing. I'm happy with how I look....well, we can't all look 17 years old forever, but I'm OK with that.

I'd like to be a little thinner, but not so I'll look great...only so I'll be healthier.

I think I'm pretty satisfied, contented person for the most part.

But it IS a little sad to think I might be offending someone just by my existance.

and it seems like someone is trying to insinuate that you be po white trash!! they got the judgement thing down good!!

I think I dress appropriately, but I am a casual person and I dress for comfort. I seldom wear high heels because they hurt and if I have my choice I wear jeans. I think some people are a bit judgmental here. Tastes vary, lifestyles vary and some of us don't have perfect bodies. Big deal.Clothes and hair are a big deal ot some. To me there are other things more important. I'd rather by books than expensive clothes.

In the height of my tbmnity, I wanted a frumpy woman because getting to dressy implied too much worldliness and hifalutin' assertiveness. I wanted a woman who did not expect much, so I'd have the odds in my favor of not disappointing her.

I tend to dress appropriately for the occasion, but when I'm at work, heels are forbidden because they're considered a safety hazard. My ideal thing would be to wear jeans or shorts when I'm casually dressed, and slacks for dressing up. Most of the time, I wear flats or sandals depending on the weather and only wear heels when I know I'm not going to be standing or walking a lot. The dresses I do have aren't the type TBM women would wear because they're sleeveless or have tiny straps.

thread--I like to wear jeans and turtlenecks--that's my regular outfit daily. If I go out, which isn't often, I dress up a little more. And I've never worn much makeup (which is something my boyfriend from 32 years ago and now always loved about me).

I think when it comes to frumpiness, the person who started the thread was talking about mormon women--I'd suspect more when they go to church on Sunday. My favorite person in my neighborhood (ward) who is a dear friend is in her 70s. I don't think she has ever purchased herself anything new. She very much exhibits frumpiness and it all comes from sacrificing everything for her kids (11). She has a huge load she carries and I'd love to see her do something nice for herself. But the image of denim jumpers, etc., is really strong in my area for going to church.

Personally, I don't wear heels because I'm just shy of 6 feet tall and clumsy on top of that (I'd probably break an ankle just wearing some once). My daughter is 5'9" and wears 3 inch heels in every color.

BUT my experience has been that many mormon women do not feel a sense of self or wellbeing. If they are the ones who are "stepford wives" which there are also a lot of in Utah or they dress frumpy--there is something missing.

I read through that whole tedious thread to get to your gem at the end. It was worth it. :)

In the mormon culture, it's common to think that everyone has a right to dictate the one true and proper reaction for every situation and the "right" look for men and especially, for women.

The reality is that more emotionally healthy and secure people dress to please themselves as much or more than to please strangers passing them on the street or coming to yard or door. I think it's considerate of general sensibilities to be clean and presentable but frumpiness is in the eye of the beholder and no one must try to live by the one true dress standard as laid out by an imaginary authority.

I have one good friend who puts pressure on me every time we have lunch because she critiques my hair, makeup, my clothes, accessories, and my shoes. I usually pass inspection on most details but I'm starting to think this behavior is less classy than my bad habit of wearing matching rather than complementary jewelery. I mean, come on!

I'd enjoy an afternoon more with a friend who looked a little frumpy that with someone who glared at me with a sharp eye and commented with a sharper tongue.

This reminds me of the spelling and grammar police who come to RfM to show off. "Wow, look at me. I know all about split participles!" I sometimes think my friend is saying, "Wow, look at me. I know all about hemlines this season!"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2011 10:30AM by Cheryl.

I don't recall too many frumpy women growing up in our upscale So.California wards.
Most of those women were fashion plates with small bodies.

Most wealthy men pick thinner women to begin with.

The few frumps were move-ins from Utah, or women who had given birth to a ton of kids.
But as I recall, most of those also lost weight after a while.

One in particular was huuuge but she came down to a respectable weight within a year.
Must be the environment.

My closest friend is overweight and a frumpy dresser. She is highly educated, a career teacher of at risk youth, kind, caring, generous, funny, good natured, very intelligent, interesting, raises service dogs, a great cook and much, much more. She is completely unconcerned with her physical appearance. And let's face it, someone has to be like that. Otherwise, we'd all be scrambling around trying to make our shoes and hairstyle relevant to our way of life.

In the end, it comes down to this: Some of us care too little and some of us care to much.

I used to be the type of gal who wouldn't walk to the mailbox without at least some make-up on. I loved make-up. I almost looked into becoming a make-up artist.

But when I turned 30, I developed an allergy to make-up. I tried everything, from the most hypo-allergenic, to the most expensive, but there was nothing I couldn't wear without getting a runny nose and blood-shot eyes.

That included any hand creams, moisturizers, sun screen lotions, etc.

I walked around for about a year and a half feeling like a total frump. I had a naked face and I hated it. It didn't help that one of my male friends commented on what a dramatic difference there was between me with make-up on and me without make-up. Even when I was dressed up for church, I just felt not done up, and downright frumpy.

I think that's when I stopped caring and just went on to dress very comfortably and I gained a lot of weight. I'm perfectly comfortable as a frump now. I'm content in my own skin.

Or I've just gotten old enough that I don't care. LOL People can take me as I am, or not at all. Doesn't matter to me.

There was a time I wouldn't have thought to be seen in my glasses. But....
That was before I turned 40 and my eyes started changing, and, try as I might, I couldn't see out of my lenses properly. And they made me crazy--the first thing I did when I walked in my door after work. Take out the contacts!

One day, when I ran out of the supply, I thought, "WHY am I doing this to myself?" So, I stopped wearing them.

No more time fussing with them. No more time putting on makeup multiple times because they moosh it.

I LOVE my frumpy life!

Something I noticed. My gfriends who are blonde wear makeup.
Without it they are very washed out.
It makes a huge difference.
Without their eye makeup they have no eyes!
Their eyes just kind of disappear into their faces under their light lashes! It's amazing!

Me; I'm dark haired and dark eye-browed, So going bare face is not a big deal. And it's okay, Because I'd hate to have to wear make up on a hot sunny day when I'd be sweating it off!

So yes some do need to wear make up.

Wearing good dynamic colors for your skin tone next to your skin makes you look good too.

I've seen a lot of little old ladies in the retirement centers who do NOT wear make up but LOOK GREAT because they are wearing scarves, a bit of jewelry or a beautifully colored blouse/top. Of course, the 80+ generation sure know how to pick out great hats! Wow! They look so wonderful in their hats! (Not baseball caps, but womanly hats with flowers, netting and etc.)

I don't mind seeing them on others, but hate wearing those two accesories. I sometimes buy them, wear them once, hate it, and toss them in a rummage bag.

It's depressing to think that some people think turning 80 or 90 must bring on more shopping, primping, and being pushed prodded and gossiped about.

I am a very casual dresser, for the most part, and have been since I started dressing myself.

When I was a kid, the standard uniform was jeans, t-shirt and a pair of well-worn Chuck Taylors. That's still my preference, but these days, I tend to buy good shoes. Not designer stilettos, but shoes that support my arches and give my ankles some support. I have a serious passion (problem?) for stacked-heel boots in various heights.

I keep my hair short in the "bed-head" mode because I'd rather sleep than do my hair. I wear minimal make-up, just mascara and eye-liner, for the most part.

When DH and I want to dress up and go out on the town, we usually pull out all the stops and get dressed to the nines. But we don't do that very often and neither of us would want to dress that way every single day.

As a young, semi-active Mormon teen, there was a lot of pressure put on me to look more "feminine". But of course, the LDS notion of "feminine" assumes there is only one way to look, act or be feminine. I am of the opinion that the number of ways to be feminine is equivalent to the number of females on the planet.

I liked what Gabriella said in the original thread, that it isn't the clothing that makes a frump, but rather the indoctrination that as a woman, you must sacrifice all personal time, hobbies and goals for anyone (and everyone) else. The "frumpy" dress are just a natural by-product of that.

If you add in the social pressure to conform in Mormon culture, it's no wonder that so many Mormon women look the same.

If you see yourself as frumpy, you will likely carry yourself in a frumpy way. If you don't consider yourself frumpy, you likely won't.

I gave up giving a shit about what others, particularly strangers, think of me a looooooooooooooong time ago.