My nevermo husband explained to me what worship means in the non-mormon world. He said growing up, the family prayer time consisted of everyone kneeling and all voicing adoration and praise to Jesus.

He also said that worship service meant expressing appreciation and honor for Jesus/God. This included voicing afirmations during the sermon including comments like, amen, yes Lord, glory be to God, praise Jesus."

In adition worship included singing hymns about Jesus, saying complimentary things about him, feeling reverent, waving arms in the air, falling down in convulsions, talking in tounges and expressing joy.

Other expressions of worship were to recite memorized affirmations, read scripture.

All of the above are considered as "worship" in my DH's parental church.

In some churches they light candles or use incense.

In the mormon mindset, I continued to think of worship as addressing prayers to a Heavenly Father until I attended a variety of churches and talked to non-mormons. That's when I realized that the mormon idea that worship equals saying a prayer isn't the normal definition of the words.

So I looked up "worship" in several dictionaries and found that few of them mentioned the act of "prayer" in the definitions. Looking up "prayer" sometimes brought up the word "worship" but not as an exact synonym only as one example of expressing the general worship idea.

My point is that mormons have very different terms in their church for ideas than do non-mos.

Even the word prayer is different. Most people I know who pray are not so focused on requesting favors as mormons are. Rather, they're trying to meditate or get in touch with some higher being they want to honor.

I'm an atheist and I don't pray, but I've long been recovering from my morg experiences and have had to learn non-mo ideas on how to dress, what are normal boundaries, and also how to talk since mormons have peculiar definitions for many words such as garments, priest, elder, reverence, prayer, and worship.

Every religion, especially x-ianity, uses prayer to make their god a short order cook.

You think every football fan praying for their team to win is a kolobian? Everything you described above for worship is practiced by mainstream kolobians.

You're seriously grasping at straws, here.

You are speaking for **every** religion? Fine, then it's up to you to list them and prove your point with each.

I have NO understanding of football. Sorry.

Perhaps that's why I'm having trouble understanding your point.

I've never heard of mormons referring to "worship" as anything but addressing prayers to their deity and to none of the rest of what I mentioned. Have you? If so, you might elaborate for me.

Thanks,
Former mormon. Is Kolobian a word for mormon? Sorry, I haven't been reading the threads on this development, but it works for me.

If so,
Thanks,
Former Kolobian.

Yes, I know my spelling is the WORST ever on RfM.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2011 11:04AM by Cheryl.

as in Chulotc/chulotc is snarky...aka Kolobian!

Kobolikan (sic) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every religion, especially x-ianity, uses prayer
> to make their god a short order cook.
>
> You think every football fan praying for their
> team to win is a kolobian? Everything you
> described above for worship is practiced by
> mainstream kolobians.
>
> You're seriously grasping at straws, here.

This board is called Recovery From Mormonism.

It is for people who are, yes, THAT'S RIGHT, Kobolikan, recovering From Mormonism!

Now, look, see? Right over there? That's the door. Make sure you do not get your arse jammed in it on the way out, there's a good fellow!

I guess I took a wrong turn at Albuquerque, huh?

I suppose everyone's recovery is different. My version of recovery doesn't require applying standards to a specific religion and then not applying the same standards universally to other religions. I'm not a fan of double standards.

Pretending that kolobians are the only religious folk that ask their god for anything is ridiculous and you know it. If kolobians are guilty of making their god a short order cook, so are most x-ians.

If the case is made that mainstream x-ians provide more lip service to their god "praise jesus, hallelujah, etc." that's more a product of the fact that the mainstream x-ian god cares more about being worshipped than any other god that's been made up. Jesus is petty & jealous. Of course the people who pretend he exists praise him out loud. They're afraid they'll be sent to his torture chamber if they don't. That's not pious. It's petty.

Being able to see all religions for the fraud that they are is, for me anyway, the best path to recovery from mormonism. People who leave the kolobian church and get recruited to another one simply haven't learned their lesson.

Where was that door again?

People have a right to believe anything they want, including stupid things like football. It's a human right in a free society. You're either justifying your own beliefs or you're assuming with every mormon fiber left in your body there's only one true way of living on the face of the eath and everyone else must go along with you. That's religious thinking making yourself god. The most magical thinking of all is believing you have the right and power to control the minds and choices of other free productive human beings.

You sure seem to harp on and on about how everyone has the right to believe what they want and say what they want, but it looks like that's only true if they agree with you, which I don't.

You made the assertion that kolobians only pray to ask for stuff, which is not true, then you further asserted that they don't sing hymns to jesus, compliment him, feel reverent, or express joy which you know is patently absurd. You also included waving arms, having convulsions, and speaking in tongues which only apply to a very small percentage of x-ians so they certainly wouldn't count.

You further asserted that other religious folk don't ask their gods for any favors, which is equally absurd.

Of course all the x-ians on the board are going to jump on your bandwagon and shout "yeah, kolobians don't worship the RIGHT way, they worship the WRONG way... as if there's any way to know what is right worship & wrong worship when nobody can even demonstrate that the object of worship even exists.

And you appealed to your husband as an "authority figure" on what real worship is (i guess some old kolobian habits die hard) but I'll leave that alone.

Did you really expect not to be called out on your double-standards?

Are you really going to continue to assert that non-kolobians don't petition their gods for goods, services, & favors? I think that's hilarious.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2011 10:57AM by kolobian.

which you dismissed.

Read again. All of it. Every word and think about it.

You seem to care nothing about abuses in religious communities, things like incess, child sexual abuse, wife beating, graft, tax abuse, all things common in CULTS.

Nice that you care about religious magical thinking, but you care nothing about football fan magical thinking. The whole game is stupid and a waste of resources. I realize I can't convince anyone of these facts though. That would be magical thinking on my part. Similar to YOUR thinking that you can confront happy religious people and force your will on them or make them admire you for what they see as ill conceived conclusions.

I have no patience with anyone who reads only a subject line and one or two words in a piece and then writes in the rest however it suits them.

Cheryl is correct, Mormon prayer is self-centered, asking for good and favors and not prayers of worship and thanks. Prayers are a reflection of Mormon culture, a culture focus on material goods, and how to get material goods, blessings, status.

The priesthood potions are also symbols of status, money is status and equates to being worthy before God in Mormon society.

Goods and riches mean one is 'blessed', one does not have goods and riches one is 'not blessed'. The disheartening aspect of Mormon culture is the justification of 'exploitation, ponzie schemes, dishonest business practices, dishonest marital conduct, deception '-- and it is often done without thought, without guilt.

Descending from "pioneer stock", is status also in the Mormon faith, with the more favored spirit children coming to select mult-gen Mormon families.


Mormonism is about status, favors, "blessings"-- the focus of Mormon prayers is asking for favors and goods -- no matter how one obtains them.

In mormonism worship also consist of endless and mindnumbing debates of how to worship god. The consensus is usually that complete obedience equals worship. Failure to follow any and all commandments is failure to worship god.

I think the difference is because the church takes everything away...to get something back one has to abase themselves and plead for a blessing to fall out of the sky.

I was raised in a Protestant church; it taught and practiced the very notion of worship that you describe in your post above.

It seems that "worship" is yet *another* term Mormons have twisted and consigned with their own "peculiar" definition.

After all, can't have members worshiping Christ more than they worship “The Church.”

When mormons do "worship" in the normal sense of demonstrating and voicing admiration and religious fervor toward the devive, what they are "worshipping" is the church organization.

Mormons can't stop raving about and honoring The Church. They say they don't know where they'd be without it. They say they depend on the commandments to keep Satan at bay. They go on and on about how much they love and depend on it and are so devoted to it. That is what worship is.

Yes, what mormons worship is their organization and those who dictate over it. Much moreso than Jesus, the Holy Ghost, or the mormon heavenly father.

We thank thee o god for a prophet

I so agree with you Cheryl and others. Mormons do worship a church rather than Jesus IMO. It is all about how TRUE the church is rather than praise to Jesus. They pray to obtain more blessings....in our church we pray to thank God FOR blessings-not to beg for them..... and we ask for HIS intersession to help the sick, etc. I related to much of what you said about your husband's definition of worship Cheryl.

And for Mormons worship IS about obedience. If you are not totally obedient to their directions, then you are not worshipping (one or two p's ??- skipping is two) correctly.That is when they send the spies out to check on you so you will get with the program.

It doesn't seem like it, with all the obedience, subservience, abasement and feelings of unworthiness, but all that is just the price one pays for eventual exaltation and godhood. Woo-HOO! Mormonism is a grand social climb. You don't want to be stuck in a lesser kingdom with the riff-raff. You want to be in the VIP lounge of the most exclusive club. Fetch, you want to OWN the finkin' club, a CHAIN of clubs, with everyone begging to get in, just like you used to. Until then, you want your flippin' blessings. You want the Sky Daddy to do favors that prove you're on his BFF list, that you're better than those who aren't as blessed.

yes this is true...its all about me.

I am learning how to just spend time with God rather than bring my laundry list of things...it is a much better way of living.

yes they are all about I am so grateful for the church, without the church i would not, the church has done soo much for the world...

Arrgh!

It is so correct that Mormonism uses Christian words but gives them a different meaning.

When I was a Mormon I treated God like Santa. I gave Him a wish list. I always wondered why He wouldn't "bless" me the way I wanted. The word "worship" means something very different to me now that I am a Christian, which is telling God I love and appreciate Him in any circumstances and in a variety of ways.

chipsnsalsa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When I was a Mormon I treated God like Santa. I
> gave Him a wish list. I always wondered why He
> wouldn't "bless" me the way I wanted. The word
> "worship" means something very different to me now
> that I am a Christian, which is telling God I love
> and appreciate Him in any circumstances and in a
> variety of ways.


AMEN!!!!! So true isn't it. Thank God for sanity. I still have some hard days, but hey its a learning curve. and even if he NEVER did anything else, he got me out of the MORG and that is fantastic!

>

As a nevermo, it explains something. It helps explain why most "mainstream" Christian religions think that Mormons worship Joe Smith and their Profits, and Mormons say they don't.

"Mainstream" Christian religions think of worship including songs about Jesus, so when Mormons sing songs with "hail to the man" and "follow the profit," they see Mormons as worshiping Joe and all their profits. I now understand why Mormons don't think they "worship" Joe and the Profits, because the word "worship" has a different meaning to them.

The mormon term for that is "endure until the end."

Or "Hold to the rod."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2011 03:10AM by Cheryl.

Somebody on this board a while back wrote "Members of other churches go to church to worship God. Members of the Mormon church go to church to learn about God and to learn to become Gods themselves."

I've always remembered that because that's all the difference.

You don't put your money in and get a coke out every time.

"Lord,

GIMME, GIMME, GIMME!

NOW!

Oh, yeah... thanks."

kolobian I think you know nothing about worship. How nice that you are the authority for "every religion, especially x-ianity". I call your bullshit and raise you ten.

----------------

As a non-mo, I did find the idea of the Mormon god pretty odd. In mainstream Christianity people ask for the strength to deal with the crisis. They don't demand that god cure someone's cancer because they wear jesus jammies and don't drink coffee. And very few people believe that they can bless people from death.

And god does not call people home because they are too good for this earth. I once read a quote from a Jesuit that said "Don't confuse God with nature". Nature gives you cancer and brings deformed babies into the world and causes tornados. Also don't confuse God with chance. If you are at the wrong place driving to work, an accident might kill you. If you were in the world trade center on the wrong day, you died.

I often find the comments by ex-mos who are now atheists to be very childish. They write that they won't believe in a god that "allows" war and children to starve, etc. People cause wars and economies and drought and people allow babies to starve. Trying to pin everything as god's fault is as childish as believing that giving money to the church guarantees blessings. There is very little sophistication in Mormon theology. It is about doing your time and then expecting the rewards.

Maybe not every religion, but prayer or ritual or even sacrifice to ask the favor of your deity-of-choice is common. Throughout history this has been practiced to win wars, heal, win games, gain possessions, etc. Many, many other xstian denominations do this, and it is absurd to say LD$ are the only ones who do this or even the most common practitioners of it. Mark Twain was not describing an LD$ service when he wrote this:

http://warprayer.org/
"Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory --"

I attended many different churches growing up, and among the common themes like: live like a xstian all week, not just on Sunday, and appeals for funds, were denouncing the use of prayer to ask jeezus for material things - because people do this a lot. There is even the prosperity gospel, which embraces, and preaches the expectation of riches, and things from good behavior. Many different churches, not just LD$, associate righteousness with wealth, and many people bargain with gawd to be good in order to get results or things in return. Bargaining is often present with dying or loss. This is an accepted fact.

Other xstians do pray directly for healing, especially Pentecostal types, and this is common at revivals.

Many people believe that those who die are too good for this earth. This is an extremely common sentiment, because xstians, and many other religions believe the afterlife is a better place. Xstians believe the earth is fallen, and wicked, so of course if you are a good person, and die, you get your ticket to heaven to hang out with jeezus.

President Lincoln said about the death of his son:

`When the president gazed at him, he mourned, "My poor boy, he was too good for this earth. God has called him home. I know that he is much better off in heaven, but then we loved him so. It is hard, hard to have him die!"'
http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/education/williedeath.htm

Atheists do not believe, and THEN decide to reject gawd, because they think one exists who '"allows" war and children to starve' i.e. essentially rejecting, because they disapprove of how they think he operates. Atheists simply do not believe. Usually when they make such statements they are trying to get xstians to think, and reason about what they believe in order to debate or get them to understand the absurdity of their religion. A lot of xstians do believe war, and starving children are punishments from their sky daddy - especially when it is not happening to them personally.

As a former TBM, and now atheist, I put a lot of thought, and consideration into my decision. I reasoned it out. Most atheists are very articulate about why they do not believe in imaginary things, which THEY would contend is childish.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2011 03:17AM by atheist&happy:-).