Sorry for the many temple questions today, I guess I am finally able to talk about it and want to know what others think.

In the ceremony what was the absolute weirdest part for you? For me, surprisingly it was the prayer circle at the end. I just didn't get it, that was the most cult-ish thing I'd ever seen. I knew about the garments from seeing my parents wear them, so I didn't think that odd as a TBM. The prayer circle is what got me.

So I was so surprised when that wrinkly old man with the cold hands started touching my body.

Every time I think about it I want to take a shower...

Thank the Lord I went after that, LOL, the woman touching me with oil on her fingertips with the speed of lightening was over faster than I had time to register what just happened. I also had the shield but it was open on the sides.

Edited to clarify, I also went before 2005, I meant thank the Lord we even had the shield. The woman I had was just as uncomfortable as I was and I don't think ever actually touched me.

...Your washing & anointing wasn't valid, so neither were your convenants. I'm so jealous...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2011 06:29PM by kolobian.

*like* :)

What was the washing and anointing supposed to be like? I read stories of the no shield fully naked thing and death oaths which really would have freaked me out. I didn't like the whole secrecy behind it all, no one would tell me anything. I finally told my soon to be husband I was freaked about it and he spilled the beans, so I knew what they were going to do before I went in. The woman with the priesthood was a surprise, but that was over in seconds and I barely remember it, I could tell she was very uncomfortable and I definitely was. BTW, since our marriage, dh and I have never been back. I honestly don't remember much but if I read the ceremony online, I remember oh yeah they did that. That prayer circle is really the only thing that stands out to me now because it was so bizarre.

I was 19, headed for a mission, then on to making my mark in the world. I had a little ambition and was going to make some money and enjoy life. The endowment sucked all the wind out of my sails. I remember thinking "Why try now? "If the kingdom of God is going to take it all away what's the point of trying to make real money?"

The most bizarre, disturbing, violating, and cultish things for me were the washing and anointing, the last token where you raise your hands and lower them, and the absolute killer was the prayer circle.

I almost felt a legal obligation to report what was going on after having oil and water put on my body by a complete stranger.

The raising and lowering of the hands was shocking, to say the least.

But when the prayer circle started, the only thing that kept me in my seat and not running out as fast as possible was that my parents were right there with me. I just remember glancing over at my Dad and thinking, "This is what you've been doing in the temple all these years?!" And he seemed so casual, like all of it was exactly what he expected. It was all as it should have been for him. But in my mind, my entire world was crashing. The religion I thought I had grown up in transformed before my eyes into the cult my friends had accused it of being. And worse. It was far worse than anything I had imagined might be taking place in a real cult.

But because my parents, whom I love and respect, continued through it with such normalcy, I returned to the temple again and again until it became normal for me too.

My first time I was a part of that prayer circle, which was just insane to me. Wedding day, everything going crazy, family all around and you want me to do what? Veil came off during the prayer thing multiple times, poor temple workers helping me, I was utterly embarrassed and in a cult.

My veil was my wardrobe malfunction the whole time, LOL, could not keep the thing on.

I never saw any Spirits of those whose work we did.

There was a moment where I thought what the hell am I doing?

I hated the Celestial room because the moment i sat down someone came to ask me to move because a bride was coming.

Okay er...What!!!!!??????

And oh no one would leave me alone when we were robing and derobing everyone came to assist me.

I mean really? After a while I was like I am NVER going back and well that took care of that!

And that veil over my face!

actually specifically it was

1) initiatory stuff- being oiled up while naked under a sheet

2) penalties associated with the tokens which depicted different ways of killing ones self (slitting throat, disembowleing self etc). were creepy and a little disconcerting.

3) 5 points of fellowship at the veil was a little weird basically you were almost hugging the guy on the other side w/ yer inside knees touching.

4) Found the true order of prayer circle chanting weird too

For my first temple visit, by far the weirdest was to stand next to my brilliant father and watch him donning the temple robes.

It goes to show that even scintillatingly brilliant minds can subject themselves to strange beliefs when they have accepted it is honorable and right.

Rest in peace, Dad! I love you!

My first time was in 76, when the church was really getting involved in the fight against ERA. I hated the way women were treated in the church and then I go to the temple where a woman's place is made chrystal clear. "The women will now veil their faces," are some of the most sickening words you hear there.

I can only imagine a woman's perspective on that. How about the part where you are made subject to your husband as long as he is faithful to the lord? Scary considering the subjective nature of faithfulness, but fundamentally wrong regardless.

like we were suddenly in a holy roller church.

When the old guy started to jerk me off while I wore a poncho.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Wow... That was the funniest thing I've heard in a long time. Thank you.

The clothing was weird. I remember looking over at my husband (we'd been married 6 months when I went through for the first time) wearing that ridiculous baker's hat and thinking, "what the hell?" I felt totally ridiculous dressed up in all the robes and apron and veil too. (not to mention having those horrible garments on for the first time)

But yes, for me the prayer circle definitely took the prize for weirdest part. The whole thing left me feeling extremely unsettled and confused. And then the whole "signs and tokens" thing at the veil - I remember thinking to myself "why would God have secret handshakes and passwords to get into heaven? Reminds me more of 'secret combinations'...."

I went back once after my first visit, to get sealed, and haven't been back since (and never will).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2011 07:17PM by littlekiwi.

"Baker's hat.." hahaha, that's hilarious. Mine is in a box in my garage somewhere. I'm not really sure what to do with it now.

"Secret combinations," I'm really surprised more active members don't see that.

The clothing and swearing the death oaths....that freaked me out, but I kept my mouth shut and and went with it, thinking that if the church didn't pan out, or I found it was false, I was really under no obligation to slit throats or disemblowel anyone or myself.

But it was very strange at the time....I thought "what have I gotten myself into, stay calm, just go along with it, it will work out in the end....and it did! I quit all things mormon!

LOL, Congratulations!

You are losing your flock at breakneck speed. THIS weirdo crapola is a BIG reason why!

And all the lurkers out there: Wake up and smell the coffee, literally! You are in a freakin CULT!!!! This is not normal. No other church does these creepy cultic ceremonies!

Rant over. ;-D

Oh, whole thing! Washings/anointings, promising my life to TSCC, the circle, WTF?, the veil feel-up... Pay Lay All crap!

Rant over, again. ;-D

What is TSCC?

I was in your place a few years ago. It feels great to commiserate here.

The weirdest part was either the naked touching or the imitation of a druid gathering for the "true order of prayer"

It was REALLY weird to have all that emphasis on Lucifer. I had always thought he was a secondary character.

Until moving to Utah, I had no idea the role Satan/Lucifer plays in Mormonism. It's sad to raise children with such a negative, terrifying presence.

Trust me, there was nothing at all Druidic about that "true order of prayer"!

I had prepared myself for the absolute worst I could imagine, however unlikely (being naked in front of the whole group). No one would talk to me about what actually went on in the temple, and I didn't cruise anti-Mormon sites or publications, so I really didn't know what to expect.

After the naked touching, which was a horrifying partial fulfillment of my worst expectations, I figured there couldn't possibly be anything more offensive to follow. I thought that me feeling violated was a product of my lack of faith, and the fact that I had been sexually-abused as a child. I really believed the church was true, so I subjected myself to the ritual in full faith that it was the only path that was acceptable to God. The initiatory bothered me enough that I sobbed afterward, but I wasn't self-possessed enough to leave. I got myself together emotionally during the movie presentation.

I felt increasingly uncomfortable after we moved to the second room. My mother asked if I wanted to participate in the circle, and I declined. Since I didn't know what was coming, I certainly didn't want to be up there in front of everybody (it was a packed session). I was still on guard after the initiatory experience.

As I went through the motions, I felt like I was having an out-of-body experience. My body was moving but I was completely stunned inside. As the group chanting and hand motions commenced the thought that went through my mind was "The anti-Mormons are right, we are a cult".

I couldn't believe how casual my folks were about it. I mean this was majorly weird stuff and they were playing it like it wasn't remotely out of the ordinary. I remember wondering what else about the church I didn't know. I was sickened.

After we got through to the celestial room, my mother wanted to sit and talk about it, but I couldn't. I made a bee line for the dressing room and cried again. I couldn't hide my disappointment that God resorted to such weirdness and that I didn't have the spiritual fortitude to appreciate what I had just witnessed. I felt like a total failure.

I went many, many times after that-- obsessively. My mother told me that the secret to really appreciating the temple was to keep going faithfully until it made sense. She volunteered to go with me until I felt comfortable. I sure gave it my all. I had the whole damn thing memorized. But I never could motivate myself to take part in the circle, and I was always relieved to be done.

At the time it hadn't occurred to me that the church might not be true. I just figured that the Lord's one and only true church was also a cult with bizarre secret rituals.

I was so relieved when I finally came to the realization that it was all bunk. In talking with TBM friends and family, they frequently expressed sentiments like "I could never leave the church, I need the temple." or "How can you do this? You've been to the temple?". The temple was never a source of comfort to me. It was anxiety and confusion and frustration. I was so relieved to leave it all behind.

I know exactly what you mean.

Raising my arms and then lowering them while repeating aloud the words "Pay Lay Ale. Pay Lay Ale. Pay Lay Ale."

I thought WTH is this a cult? Turns out after all these years, my initial thought was right on the money.

Has the wording changed or do I just not remember the Pay Lay Ale stuff? I remember Oh God hear the words of my mouth or something like that. I thought it odd the men and women were split up, because it was my wedding, but we came back together in the sealing room that was ok. I actually liked that part of the wedding. I said yup when they asked if I'd marry dh, the guy doing the ceremony said you have to say yes, and my Dad laughed because I always say "yup". I had to clearly say yes though or he wouldn't go on.

I just asked my dh this same question, he said going through the veil was the weirdest, he didn't understand why God wouldn't just let people in and couldn't ever remember all the secret handshakes right. He also said the guy in the initiatories barely touched him too.

Yeah, they changed the wording. You used to be able to chant in the pure Adamic language. Nothing weird about that.

Are you serious?!! The words used to be Pay Lay Ale or something? That is insane! I never knew that. I thought the English was weird enough.

They got rid of the pay-lay-ale chant with the 1990 changes. The "oh, god, hear the words of my mouth" part replaced it.

Personally, I much prefer just "oh, god, oh, god, OOOOOOH, GOD!", but in a completely different context.

*like*

That is funny! I always wonder why they taught prayer one way at church and then did the weird prayer circle at the temple--does God really care how you pray to him?

In the "olden" days (pre-1990), the prayer circle would culminate in everyone raising their hands over their hands, and while lowering them, chanting, "PAY! LAY! ALE!" Of course, now we know that this was not really Adamic, as claimed, but merely a choice of custom brews. They changed it to, "Oh God, hear the words of my mouth," which didn't have the same effect because it just reminded people of Chris Tucker in "Rush Hour." But "PAY! LAY! ALE!" was spooky and reminded me of the three Oliver Hardy-like guys in "In the Night Kitchen" when the little kid was having a dream. I didn't like reading that book to my kids because it was dumb and spooky at the same time.

All of it was weird for me, but the thought that persisted from my first session to my very last was during the oaths, the oath of obedience, consecrating all of your belongings to the church, and especially the part about sacrificing your life for the church, and thinking, "Jesus made the sacrifice, so we don't have to. None of this has anything to do with what Jesus taught."

One part that got me was when Satan was asking Peter, James and John if they had money and how money could buy anything in this world..... I was thinking "Why are the only two people on the entire planet using money?" The prayer circle was weird, too.

I was really uncomfortable with the whole "wives obeying husbands" covenant, which seemed in my mind to transform marriage into a master-slave relationship. What's interesting is that my wife-to-be had much less of a problem with it than I did, and it took several years for her to discard the dehumanizing programming drilled into her from her parents and the Young Women's program.

I've never been a big fan of the Law of Consecration, either, or the covenant against loud laughter. Really, I didn't like the oaths much at all.

Also, as a film buff I was really bothered by the poor, outdated effects in the endowment video. Seriously, the movies could be vastly improved just by replacing the stock footage with newer imagery and dropping the wobbly planet models in the opening footage.

Ha ha ha

A merry heart doeth the body good like a medicine {proverbs}

How stupid that God would now change his mind.

What the heck. Goodness no wonder people were staring at me laughing my head off all the time.

BUUUUULLLL FREAKING MESS!

Can you believe you did all that?

Avoid loud laughter gosh!

I could not understand the point of any of it, so the weirdest part for me was that everyone around me seemed to understand just fine. I was going crazy trying to figure out what I was missing that everyone else, especially friends and family who I respected immensely, seemed to be getting so clearly.

The scariest part for me was walking up to the waiting area the first time in the Provo temple and seeing a frail 80 year old lady coming down the escalator dressed in the green apron, veil, and robes. As a convert, I had never seen the temple clothing (never been to a Mormon funeral) so I had no idea what they wore. Seeing an old lady dressed like that for the first time was the scariest thing I had ever seen.

There was something especially freaky about seeing lots of old people dressed that way. The Salt Lake temple for example is live so they rely on retired couples to keep it going. Every time I went there, Adam and Eve were wasting away of old age, and most of the congregation was elderly. A room full of elderly people dressed in cult robes was jarring in a way that younger people wasn't.

The green apron always had the creapiest feel and look of any of the clothing.

I remember just turning white the first time I heard that. If my fiancee and parents hadn't been there, I would have walked right out.

Getting pressured into the prayer circle was a close second...especially since my parents had spent the better part of an hour yelling at me for wanting to get married right before we all went to the temple. Such a great feeling to stand in that circle with them knowing I was under condemnation for doing so, but being unable to admit that had just happened.

When Lucifer looks directly into the camera and threatens that if we don't live up to every covenant made that we will be in his power. Seriously? He's there with Adam and suddenly he sees we are in the room too? And like that threat is going to help us keep the covenants ... lame.

Probably the shitty paintings. Inside a multi-million dollar structure and all you have is reproductions. Give me a fucking break. Considering, the church has loads of cash maybe they could spruce up the interiors with passable to great works of art.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2011 12:44AM by dthenonreligious.

It really freaked me out when Satan turned to us and hissed "if THESE PEOPLE (gestures to audience) do not keep the covenants they have made this day, they will be in MY POWER!!!"

I was already freaking out over god will not be mocked. Now Satan is literally threatening me.

First, you had to have it THIS way. And then you had to shuffle it around THAT way. And God help you if you didn't get it right because some old geezer with denture breath would hustle over and fuss at you because you didn't know what you were doing.

And you didn't even get any time to relax and chill out in the Celestial Room because they herded you out after just a couple of minutes. I mean, the one thing we heard about in the Temple Prep class was the magnificence of the Celestial Room, and we weren't even given any time to really take it in! I was pretty pissed off about that.

And on the bus ride home, everybody was supposed to get up and bear their testimony about what a special spiritual experience it had been. I just couldn't, because I missed the "special" and just got "weird" out of it. And then I felt bad because you were supposed to wear this zoned-out smiley look and I could quite handle that, either.

The whole thing misfired for me and I was sure it was my fault for not being good enough.

said, "I PAID $ FOR THE USE OF THIS ROOM, I WILL LEAVE WHEN I AM READY."

ROFLOL

put them on, take them off, immediately put them back on again...

I was -what, 10, 11? Nobody had warned me and it freaked me out, big time.

I wanted to run away from that room, from my parents, from all the other people who had changed into horror film extras, weird hats, weird white clothing, etc., but you are ten, a long, long way from home, how could I have run away? Where could I have run to?

I am 54 now and I honestly do not think I got over that terrible shock. If I think about it, it brings on feelings of panic and dread.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2011 01:54AM by matt.

I think it's weird that you agree to sign up to four/five? covenants that you don't get to know about until after you have signed up to them.

Would you buy a car that way?

I remember that, when we were on our way to the ordinanceroom, there were some people standing around in full gear, cap/veil, apron. That freaked me out, but what freaked me out even more were the "penalties", you know, disembowelment, throat slashing, all that. It was so NOT what I had expected! Oh, and the w & a, eeeewwww....

was weird. I pictured the grim reaper coming after me if I accidentally said my special name out loud.

After that the weirdest thing was being able to wake up at the exact right moment whenever he said, "all arise." I woke up on que everytime - that was weird.

Many things. I had been warned about the W&A--I've told the story before. I was fearful of how bad it would all be, so was actually relieved (I have a very vivid imagination).

I hated the old bitches correcting every move. I never once got to even sit down in the CR because they always found something wrong at the veil. I hated the 5 points of fellowship (or as some have said on here--the 6 points)--inside of knee to inside of knee, breast to breast with somebody you can't even see.

They forced us to be in the prayer circle our first time--and my veil also kept falling off and I was holding up the show and they weren't very patient. I've never been someone who liked any attention focused on me and especially negative attention. I fly under the radar at all times--so this was very disturbing.

I also thought about the "I thought we were taught we didn't have rituals like other religions." That was the second thought I had in the endowment room--the first thought was laughing at my ex's baker's hat. If anyone had known my dad--I just cannot imagine him in a baker's hat (and I never saw him in it).

I never could understand why my dad didn't attend the temple at all while I was growing up. He went 25 years between his wedding and my sister's before going again. Once he realized I no longer believed, he told me how bizarre his wedding day was in the SL temple. Then I knew. He was a no bullshit kind of guy.

The thing that will always stand out in my mind though is when they said "sexual intercourse" in the temple.

I definitely felt that THIS ISN'T THE CHURCH I WAS RAISED IN. I definitely had to see it to believe it. Seeing it all on the internet wouldn't have sufficed. Once you see it in real life--then there are no mysteries left.

Come to think of it, I never heard my mother tell me the temple was special either. She made sure I took someone else along to help me as she didn't feel up to it--though she went that day. She had a lot of social phobias so I imagine the temple was a horror to her.

My fear was always that the CK would be like the temple--even if mormonism were true, no way in hell I would want to be there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2011 09:17AM by cl2.

Eventually as I went through the temple more and more, what annoyed me was how weird the people were who did the most endowments. The cool people in the church who I respected, rarely were seen at the temple. But the hard core, quasi-fundi types prided themselves on going through all the time. That was my first clue that the temple was probably not the house of the lard.

In addition to the "pay lay ale" chant and the "true order of prayer" I think the weirdest part was - the whole freaking thing! Cash registers in the temple, changing clothes around, locks on the lockers, paying to rent your clothes, a movie, devil and preacher in the movie, getting hurried out of the celestial room, pillsbury doughboy outfits, etc. Is there ANYTHING that isn't weird in there?

Watching my parents go through the motions and thinking back now - WTF?! and how can they think it means ........ Anything?

I went through 2001, no blood oath and I wore a shield, but still very strange. I went back twice more just to see if I was not getting something about the whole process - nope, it is just a very cultish ceremony, very disturbing really.

So, I still ask the question, WTF?! And how can people think it means anything at all?

I remember one guy telling me that the whole ceremony was very deep and meaningful. He said that it shows how Adam and Eve had choices and that they could have chosen to ask god to marry them instead of eating the fruit and our world would have been one of peace verses turmoil. And that leads to another WTF moment. I thought we were not to be judged for Adam's transgressions, only our own. So we get to suffer a lifetime of shit for their fruit eating, but we won't be judged for it? I say bullshit.

I guess the thing that p*ssed me off the most was the keeners who liked to be the first to be finished the robing and unrobing all those times during the movie. Sheesh... they were like those kids in class that everyone hated who had to have their hands up first to answer questions from the teacher. *ZOOM!* their robe is on the left shoulder *POOF!* it's on the right *WHAMMO!* that sash is tied in a beautiful picture-perfect Martha Stewart bow on the correct hip... and within the twinkling of an eye they are seated back down and w-a-i-t-i-n-g for the rest of us clearly-not-so-righteous to get our stuff on so we can get on with the movie.

I did like the old movie with the guy from WKRP in Cinncinati in it. He made it not seem quite so creepy cuz I had warm fuzzies of him from the show and from the Maytag commercials. I mean, really, could Mr. Maytag REALLY slit my throat?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2011 09:30AM by pickmepickme.

Fantastic description of the seasoned quick-change artists! I fumbled on my solo 2nd time thru, I was sweating to finish, and sweating literally in that get-up.

And I only saw the old movie with Gordon Jump too. He was cool but, the guy who played Satan was scary looking. Someone posted a recent picture of him awhile back and he wasn't all that scary with gray hair. LOL