http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/05/23/do.not.want.children/index.html

Well this disagrees with all the brainwashing I was raised with. The mormon church is wrong, go figure. Popping out kids and obeying my husband does not make me happy and is not my only purpose in life. Figured that one out on my own. Wish other mormon women would as well.

I have friends who decided having children would not be right for them. I enjoy my kids. I think that happiness comes from knowing your true self... something Mormonism doesn't allow you to do.

ohhh yes!! love love love, you don't have to have a bunch of kids to make you happy. I have about 20 nieces and nephews. I am 1 of 7 and I have no idea how my mom did it. Actually she didn't...we were scattered and quite torn as a family. I think if the whole MOrmon thing wasn't thrown into the mix my family would still be together..meaning my parents may have not gotten divorced when I was 2. I am 25 and don't want kids for awhile!

No surprise there.

Stormy

My sister became a widow with young children, I was there to help. My husband had a boyfriend (I learned a few years later). There were a lot of reasons I put kids on the back burner, and that wasn't until later that my own body announced it wasn't going to cooperate with the baby idea.

I love children, I am told that I am amazing with kids (so say my own nieces/nephews as do other adults). There have been times with awful pangs of regret. I've also had to come to the realization that I have not had great self-survival instincts, and probably would have not been able to provide a child with stability. Plus I absolutely hated my teachers at public school as a child and am still carrying that chip (I contribute to keeping nieces/nephews in private schools no matter how many extra shifts I must work).

I'm one of the "one in five" women who will never procreate or raise a child. I also did not ever endure the extremely difficult and expensive attempt at in-vitro fertilization, but I am impressed by those families who do so.

The cult in which I was involved gave me huge grief, a basic reason I left it. I am in grad school, have travelled extensively and in a great relationship. I don't feel guilty, either.

I know men would be happier if they went without children and marriage too. Given the fact that 60 percent of marriages end in divorce, and 90 percent of those divorces are sought by women, who end up with everything, including punitive alimony and child support which is often permanent, it would be better for men to quit marrying and having children, at least in the USA.

Dan Bain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know men would be happier if they went without
> children and marriage too. Given the fact that 60
> percent of marriages end in divorce, and 90
> percent of those divorces are sought by women, who
> end up with everything, including punitive alimony
> and child support which is often permanent, it
> would be better for men to quit marrying and
> having children, at least in the USA.


I agree. Marriage itself, is the biggest hurdle to happiness. In the US, of first marriages over 40% fail (~60% 2nd and ~70% 3rd, see http://www.divorcestatistics.org/). Of those that remain married, not half are usually happy married. That means, doing the math, that less than a fourth of all US marriages are actually routinely happy marriages.

A rate of 25% success a big FAIL.

On children: it seems to me that most women with children are unhappy with the way the kids are behaving. Most women without children regret never having them. Men could do with or without them and find their happiness often in other ways.

Marriage isn't the problem; marrying the wrong person is.

The biggest cause of failure is marrying someone you don't really know. You are taking a real gamble with your life, so spend that much time with someone who may not be very compatible with you.

I started dating someone a few months ago and suddenly it clicked. Instead of struggling in a relationship, this just seems easy and natural. Compatibility cannot be forced, it comes from having a lot in common and complimentary temperaments.

Mormons get married way too young for the worst reason of all: horniness. Once they get it on a few times, they either find out they aren't really compatible or they've gotten knocked up and spend the rest of their married life as co-parents. Many such couples really only relate via the kids and have little to do with each other one-on-one.

Agreed. I've spoken with so many who married early because "it's what their parents did." Getting a divorce was the best thing to ever happen to them.

axeldc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Marriage isn't the problem; marrying the wrong
> person is.

True, that this is part of the problem, but it is not the entire problem.
Even among those that date a long time, live together and then marry--a lot of marriages start well, but one or both partners change (as people tend to do as they mature) and that can create conflicts. Sometimes the conflicts are insurmountable.

Humans aren't monogamous by nature. At least no man wants to be. The idea of marriage is a square peg forced into the round human. It's not a natural fit. You can make it work, but as we all know it takes work. If it were a natural fit, it would require very little work. Ergo, Marriage IS the problem.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2011 03:45PM by Jesus Smith.

I'm sure we would all like to have sex with many different lovers, but marriage has to do with becoming "family" or next of kin with somebody, and also provides legal/financial stability for raising children.
If marriage were not "natural" to people, it would not have existed throughout all of human history.
Monogamy has not been a constant, but marriage has been.

That was his BIG ISSUE before we married. He boohooed to me I don't know HOW MANY TIMES that he would never be able to have children if he didn't get married. So--I gave him children. He left. FINALLY in the past 6 years or so he has realized his kids are the thing of the most value to him and he has finally risen to the occasion. BUT for someone who wanted kids SO BADLY--for about 10 years of their lives, they considered him more like a distant uncle (their words, not mine).

People will regret the thing they didn't do.
That said, studies have shown that the healthiest (mentally and physically) people are single women and married men.
Kind of proves that men benefit by marriage and women are more harmed by it.
I think it's DIVORCE that hurts men so badly, not marriage.
It's women who more often FILE for divorce because marriage tends to drain them and hold them back.

Really? Do you have some studies that indicate this or is it something you think based on personal observation?

I'm curious because I've never regretted having my children, even though raising them was no picnic and I don't know of anyone personally who ever told me they regretted having children. Granted, there are times I've wanted to sell them on e-bay, but never times I regretted their presence in my life.

"Most women without children regret never having them. Men could do with or without them and find their happiness often in other ways."

I think he's full of shit. He thinks all women want to have babies. He's a sexist.

I'm just saying that people will only regret something that's different from the way they had it.

I do not have children and do not regret it one bit. I have known MEN who desperately want children!

BadGirl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Most women without children regret never having
> them. Men could do with or without them and find
> their happiness often in other ways."
>
> I think he's full of shit. He thinks all women
> want to have babies. He's a sexist.
>
> I'm just saying that people will only regret
> something that's different from the way they had
> it.
>
> I do not have children and do not regret it one
> bit. I have known MEN who desperately want
> children!


You're right. I have no sources. Which is why I wrote "IT SEEMS TO ME". I was stating opinion based on limited personal experience. We can all say we know a woman or know a man that want to have a baby, or the opposite. I don't know the numbers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2011 03:56PM by Jesus Smith.

I was just curious because what you said seemed different from my own experiences. :)

He has three sons now and is in heaven with them here on earth. :)

BadGirl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it's DIVORCE that hurts men so badly, not
> marriage.
> It's women who more often FILE for divorce because
> marriage tends to drain them and hold them back.

I tend to think (without evidence) that men don't file for divorce as often because they're lazy. They're in a relationship with legal and financial responsibilities. To get out would create considerable pain. To find another relationship requires a lot of work. Loss of money, increase of work? Yeah, no man wants to work harder and have less. Stay with the status quo until you're forced out. That's what most men think.

Of course, as one who filed, I have to say, it was worth the cost and work in my case. My ex is batcrap crazy.

Jesus Smith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Most women without children regret
> never having them. Men could do with or without
> them and find their happiness often in other ways.

Cite?

I don't know any child-free women who regret not having children. Where are you getting this "fact"?

Even after having their bodies ripped apart giving birth -- the work has just begun.
Women don't have the luxury of being able to "take or leave" having children. Of COURSE men can take it so lightly because they are not the ones doing the work.
It would only make sense to me that women would prefer and choose NOT to have children, and never regret it, either.

ppttthhhh...my husband is the one who wants more kids! I'm good with my 3, would not want more. I personally wouldn't feel fulfilled not being a mother, but it's not for everyone.

My dad was certainly happier. He kicked us out of our house, refused child support for years and had two bloody houses while my mom, brother and I moved from shelter to shelter.

Zero or 20 or whatever -- but it's because it's what YOU really want, not what you think you're supposed to want. And not because it's an accident -- again and again.

When I was in my teen years, I preplanned my life to go to college, graduate, have a career, get married, THEN have two kids. It all worked out and I had my two in my later 30s. No regrets at all.

So fuck you, Tomato Monsoon and "Snoozefest" Scott and your fucked up 1950 colored rose glasses shit to the RMs about having to marry ASAP! FUCK YOU, YOU STUPID FUCKING ASSHOLES! SAME TO ANY FUCKED UP ASSHOLED GA TRYING TO SHOVE THIS DOWN ANYBODY'S THROAT, ESPECIALLY THE RMs!

Even though I really enjoy being a nanny, I'm glad it's not a 24-7 gig.
I watch and see how stressed my friends with kids are- There is always some drama, something didn't go right, some emergency situation etc. It's hard enough for me to deal with when my cat gets sick.

I was 25 when I realized I didn't want to have my own. Maybe I will change my mind, maybe I won't, but it won't because some clueless, out-of-touch old fogie told me what to do.

I am glad I had my kids even now--with all my son has put me through lately. BUT I can definitely see the point.

And Dan Bain--Not all women are like these women. My "ex" is living in "our home" that I hung onto after he left and I still pay for part of it even if I don't live there most of the time now. I never soaked him for much money at all. I felt he deserved to have a life, too. He had access to the kids at any time and he has a good relationship with both of them.

Some women really are BITCHES.

I can understand how childless adults could be happier. Heck, it's emotionally and financially exhausting raising children. I have three girls and my two little ones (ages 4 and 2) create a lot of stress in our lives that wouldn't be there without them. But, the love I feel for them outweighs the negative aspects and they're funny as hell! I think the number of children a family has also makes a difference. Although our 13-year-old is perfecting her eye rolling and snotty comment technique these days, she's been a piece of cake for us to raise. Having three kids now is waaaay more stressful than just the one we had for nine years.

My mom (passed away 3 years ago) used to say that she loved being a grandma because the stress of raising her own two children wasn't there and she could just focus on the fun and love she shared with her granddaughter. Do other grandparents on this board find that to be true?

They have different choices available but "happiness" is kind of a nebulous term.

I had two children and it wasn't easy raising them but it made (and makes) me happy that I got to do so. And my grandchildren bring me great joy.

I don't think that children bring or prevent happiness -- it's the person in the situation.

And Christieja, I LOVE being a grandparent. I do get to spend a lot more time just having fun with my grandchildren than I did with my children. On the other hand, I do a lot of caregiving for my grandchildren so it's not all fun and games. :)

Childfree adults can be children--it's that simple. Sometimes I would love to live in an apartment again so I can be slob and hang out with my buddies 'til 4 a.m. and spend my money on "toys".
People should have a many kids as they want, definitely NOT what "GOD" tells them, since that's simply an excuse to get the numbers up for a man-made organization.
What gets me is intelligent people not having kids because they say that it's "better for the planet" or "the world is too rough a place to raise a child"; they are literally killing themselves off--the end of a family line. Obviously, some super-smart people have a kid or two that are so sheltered and and micro-managed that they turn into "rifle in the clocktower" grownups.
Meanwhile, a bunch of dopes are breeding like rabbits; of course, plenty of families have 10 kids, 8 of which become Ph.D's, doctors and inventors,, but the point is, a lot of really smart people are "too smart by half" and don't raise any smart kids by not having any at all.

There's a movie called idiotocracy. The intelligent people don't breed and all the idiots breed like rabbits so the whole earth ends up with really stupid people. It's pretty funny. I would show the intro to my biology students at the beginning of our genetic unit. It always started great conversations with my students.

I am an intelligent person and I don't have kids for a couple of reasons, I'm gay and the sex I have will not lead to children and two I simply do not want to have kids. It is NOT about "being a child", or "better for the planet".

We have responsibilities, a mortgage, we take care of elderly friends and relatives, we don't live like children at all. We mentor kids, teach kids, etc.
Some people don't have children because they have no desire to have children. That's all.
I'm so tired of people with children BASHING those who don't.
Hell, we are paying for your children's public schools while not using them ourselves.

It's unfair to generalize that people without children are less mature than those that do. It takes a hell of a lot of maturity to resist substantial pronatalist societal pressures to just have kids and ask questions later. Many of us are child-free as a matter of conscience.

While I've met some very fine parents, having children does not necessarily require maturity, nor does it necessarily promote maturity. We've all met very immature parents-- some of us were raised by them-- it keeps therapists in business.

I simply have never had any desire to do that to my body, and even less desire to take on the totally unequal share of work that women take on when they have children.

My children can be a pain in the neck sometimes, but I'm glad i have them. I love them, and watching them grow up and learn has been one of the things in my life that brings me the greatest joy.

When nature gave us the drive to reproduce, it wasn't thinking about our happiness. Having kids certainly is a strain. The biggest stress on a marriage is children. Reported happiness drops when a couple has a child, and assuming the couple stays together, goes back up after when the children move out.

There are things we could do as a society to make child-rearing easier. A big part of it would be a change in economics. It would help a lot if parents didn't have to both work full-time to get by. We could also encourage family education and life-skills throughout school and promote contraception and making conscious decisions about having children.

What griped me about Mormonism is it encouraged me to have children, promoted itself as a "family church," and then made many demands that made family life harder, not easier.

DW and I never had kids for medical reasons (on both our parts). DW has regrets; me not so much. I'm very much afraid there are big, deleterious changes coming (no, nothing to do with raptures or the return of a 2,000 year old Jewish zombie), and I'm rather glad I didn't put kids and/or grandkids out on the train tracks. As George Carlin said, the planet isn't going anywhere. We are.

Just-my-two-cents-ly yrs,

S

When I had my kids, I believed in the "plan of salvation" (well sort of). I want NO grandkids. If my kids choose to have kids, I will be there, but I don't want to bring anymore children onto this lovely planet.

I personaly would like a child but being desabled and alot of leagal stuff which means I'd be relying in my partner alot means irs probably for the best I dont yet. i've had some really nassty things aid about me wanting to have kids when I was litlte and the only reson I did then was the church pushed for it. Now I want to rase a child with a love of inteligance and knolage yet give that child the freedom to lern about the world and play and be a child. I want to give that child what I never had and hopefuly brake the cycle of messed up children becomeing messed up adults in my family.

Some of them even parent alone. I don't know your exact circumstances but I do know that lots of disabled people have made fine parents. Perhaps you could start by volunteering with children through a school program or a daycare or something. Don't give up if this is a dream of yours. Children need people who care about them as people -- as you clearly do.

For me, I'm especially happy that I didn't have children after marrying the wrong person, as I was able to completely cut him out of my life. There's also the possibility of passing on things like depression from my mom's side of the family, or bipolar disorder from my dad's side of the family, and right now, I'm not sure I want to do that to a child. I had depression, and I consider myself lucky that it wasn't bipolar disorder.

My husband and I are childless, but not by choice. We have a disgustingly happy marriage, at least in part because we are able to spend so much time together and devote so much of our attention and love to one another.

Even though I desperately want children, I do recognize that when they are little, I will probably experience a dip in my overall happiness. That's okay, because I anticipate that (1) my level of satisfaction with my life (as contrasted with happiness) will probably increase when I am a mother; (2) I will have more happiness when I'm older because I'm a grandparent and/or because I have adult children who will help me in my dotage; and (3) these genes are too good not to pass on ;)

But it's an informed choice I'm making...not falling into by default.