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Posted by: Honest TBM ( )
Date: August 11, 2017 04:45PM

The arrogant wicked disciples of the Father of all Lies will weep, wail, and gnash their teeth on my opinion here. But the truth is so obvious on how to succeed. The way we're going to win the battle of success for the LDS Church in the 21st century will be by showing with complete honesty and transparency how the LDS Church is true in always being the most honest, transparent, and truthful organization ever. It would be unthinkable to try any other strategy towards success in the 21st century.

Next time I give a talk in Church I want to give it on a sacred collection of plates that were presented to the great holy Prophet Joseph Smith in Nauvoo. These plates were found near a village called Kinderhook in the State of Illinois around 1843. I once read an account of this in the History of the Church and was touched to learn of it being an ancient record.

I certainly don't think that knowing everything about these marvelous Kinderhook plates will be absolutely necessary for me to pass at Judgment Day. We're kind of busy right now doing all the many wonderful things the Brethren require us to focus on, such as the sacred responsibility to clean the toilets at the meetinghouse chapels so Heavenly Father can save money. But it would certainly be impossible for me to ever be an omniscient exalted being if I don't know everything about this & everything else. Everyone who may hope to go to the Celestial Kingdom might as well get started on learning all they can on this sacred topic.

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Posted by: MeM ( )
Date: August 11, 2017 06:55PM

If I knew less about the Kinderhook Plates, I expect I might feel more blessed to clean chapel toilets.

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Posted by: BYU Boner ( )
Date: August 11, 2017 06:59PM

Honest TBM Wrote:
> The way we're going to win the battle
> of success for the LDS Church in the 21st century
> will be by showing with complete honesty and
> transparency how the LDS Church is true in always
> being the most honest, transparent, and truthful
> organization ever.

Awesome. Now please sign this non-disclosure agreement. The Hidden Boner.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: August 11, 2017 10:16PM

If Satan is the Father of Lies, does that make Joseph Smith the Father of Lays?

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Posted by: cinda ( )
Date: August 11, 2017 11:57PM

You don't think that referring to members of this board as "arrogant, wicked disciples of the father of all lies,....." is a bit off-putting as an opening salvo? First of all, I personally think that you have been kindly tolerated here, on a board meant for those who have left, or are in the process of leaving, the LDS church. I am not in either of said groups as I have never(thankfully)been a member of your church. I firmly believe that you should be grateful for being allowed to post here with no retaliation from other posters.

It's funny that you would bring up the Kinderhook plates, which were made in the local area for the reason of 'spoofing' Joseph Smith. Hopefully, someone here who knows more about the story will provide additional details.
edit to add:

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2017 12:29AM by cinda.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: August 12, 2017 12:20AM

No, no, no, cinda! I'm feeling so blessed--Honest TBM is almost winning me back!

He may be a GA soon enough, and help spread the Restored Gospel™ across the world even faster.

Don't give me evidence to the contrary!

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Posted by: jan ( )
Date: August 12, 2017 12:23AM

I dunno. I always take what he says as satire.

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Posted by: peculiargifts ( )
Date: August 12, 2017 12:29AM

And you are right to do so....

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Posted by: Bobby ( )
Date: August 12, 2017 06:31AM

Ditto this.

A post dripping in satire is so much more gratifying than one oozing with acid tongue.

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Posted by: MeM ( )
Date: August 12, 2017 11:05AM

If you are unsure of Honest TBM's marvelous message, remember Google is your friend. "Kinderhook Plates"

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Posted by: Honest TBM ( )
Date: August 12, 2017 01:02PM

Who are the arrogant wicked I infer? I just mean those who think the Church should not be honest. Any person on this board or anywhere who thinks they should be honest should be commended for such an opinion.

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Posted by: cinda ( )
Date: August 12, 2017 12:27AM

No, no, no yourself, CNB....we can't lose you by your slipping backward! Besides, you already have too much evidence to the contrary to allow that to happen!

And I always enjoy reading your posts;I would have serious withdrawal, as I'm sure would many others here :(

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Posted by: kathleen ( )
Date: August 12, 2017 12:48PM


I just figured out that you are a master of satire yourself! You are truly Honest TBM's "straight man!"

Well played, both of you!


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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: August 12, 2017 12:47AM

Honest TBM is honest. Every pop song needs a hook, and what could be better than a Kinderhook? The kids will love it.

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Posted by: BYU Boner ( )
Date: August 12, 2017 01:45AM


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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: August 12, 2017 11:43AM

Just imagine being the guy carving those plates. Due to a dearth of entertainment in those days, the practical joke was raised to a high art form.

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Posted by: Der Kinderhooker ( )
Date: August 13, 2017 12:01AM

The plates were found on a nine-foot-tall skeleton!

History of the Church, Vol. 5, Ch. 19, p. 372:

"I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook, in Pike county, Illinois, on April 23 [1843], by Mr. Robert Wiley and others, while excavating a large mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from the surface of the earth, which must have stood nine feet high. The plates were found on the breast of the skeleton and were covered on both sides with ancient characters.

"I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth."

B. H. Roberts defended the authenticity of the Kinderhook plates and Smith’s translation of them (Fugate, below, was one of the hoaxers, admitting to it in 1879).

B. H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God, Vol. 3, pp. 62, 64:

"It is proper here to call attention to the fact that the genuineness of this discovery of the Kinderhook plates is questioned by some anti-Mormon writers…

"For while the statement in the text of the Prophet's Journal to the effect that the find was genuine, and that he had translated some of the characters and learned certain historical facts concerning the person with whose remains the plates were found, may not have been known at the time to the alleged conspirators to deceive him, still the editor of the Times and Seasons – John Taylor, the close personal friend of the Prophet – took the find seriously, and expressed at once explicit confidence in an editorial in the Times and Seasons, of May 1st, 1843, that the Prophet could give a translation of the plates. And this attitude the Church, continued to maintain; for in The Prophet (a Mormon weekly periodical, published in New York) of the 15th of February, 1845, there was published a facsimile of the Kinderhook plates, together with the Times and Seasons editorial and all the above matter of the text. How easy to have covered Joseph Smith and his followers with ridicule by proclaiming the hoax as soon as they accepted the Kinderhook plates as genuine! Why was it not done? The fact that Fugate's story was not told until thirty-six years after the event, and that he alone of all those who were connected with the event gives that version of it, is rather strong evidence that his story is the hoax, not the discovery of the plates, nor the engravings upon them."

Mark E. Petersen also expressed confidence in the Kinderhook plates in his 1979 book "Those Gold Plates!"

"There are the Kinderhook plates, too, found in America and now in the possession of the Chicago Historical Society. Controversy has surrounded these plates and their engravings, but most experts agree they are of ancient vintage."

But then the truth came out, and even the church had to declare the plates a forgery.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol. 2, KINDERHOOK PLATES:

"Then in 1980, the Chicago Historical Society gave permission for destructive tests, which were done at Northwestern University. Examination by a scanning electron microscope, a scanning auger microprobe, and X-ray fluorescence analysis proved conclusively that the plate was one of the Kinderhook six; that it had been engraved, not etched; and that it was of nineteenth-century manufacture. There thus appears no reason to accept the Kinderhook plates as anything but a frontier hoax."

And so the apologists had to go to work, and they did, lying and obfuscating.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol. 2, KINDERHOOK PLATES:

"The Kinderhook plates created a stir in Nauvoo; articles appeared in the Church press, an illustrated handbill was published, and some Latter-day Saints even claimed Joseph Smith said he could and would translate them. No translation exists, however, nor does any further comment from him indicating that he considered the plates genuine."

Diane E. Wirth, "Harry L. Ropp, with revisions from Wesley P. Walters, 'Are the Mormon Scriptures Reliable?'", FARMS Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, Vol. 2 (1990), p. 210:

"In order to debunk Joseph Smith's abilities as a translator, the authors bring up the old Kinderhook controversy, which has been settled once and for all as a forgery by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Joseph Smith's supposed statement that the Kinderhook plates were authentic and that they were the 'records of the descendants of Ham,' came from the journal of William Clayton, who wrote in the first person, as though from the mouth of Joseph Smith. A first-person narrative was apparently a common practice of this time period when a biographical work was being compiled. Since such words were never penned by the Prophet, they cannot be uncritically accepted as his words or his opinion."

Diane E. Wirth, "Stephen Williams, 'Fantastic Archaeology: the Wild Side of North American Prehistory,'" FARMS Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, Vol. 4 (1992), p. 252:

"It was quite some time before it was positively acknowledged by scholars, through an electronic and chemical analysis, that the one remaining plate is a hoax. More important, contrary to popular articles written by anti-Mormon writers, Joseph Smith did not make a translation of the fraudulent plate. The translation attributed to him has proven to be an excerpt from a journal of William Clayton. In fact, after viewing the Kinderhook plate, Joseph Smith never showed any interest in it."

William J. Hamblin, "Jerald and Sandra Tanner, 'Archaeology and the Book of Mormon,'" FARMS Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, Vol. 5 (1993), p. 269:

"The Kinderhook Plates

"The Tanners relish linking Joseph Smith with this early nineteenth-century forgery. This topic has been analyzed in detail, and it has been demonstrated that Joseph Smith was only mildly interested in the Kinderhook plates. [61] Whatever the significance of this forgery for early Latter-day Saint history, it has absolutely no relevance for the modern study of Book of Mormon antiquities."

[fn 61] Stanley B. Kimball, "The Kinderhook Plates," Ensign 11 (August 1981): 66-74.

[Note: Stanley Kimball also authored the Encyclopedia of Mormonism quotes above. So the spin doctors are reduced to quoting each other to try and make their points.]

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Posted by: Felix ( )
Date: August 13, 2017 03:29PM

It seems reasonable to assume Joseph Smith must have been aware of John Taylors editorial comments in the May 1st, 1843 Times and Seasons church publication expressing his confidence in Joseph Smiths ability to translate them. The article thus gives credence to the belief that Joseph Smith lead others to believe that the Kinderhook plates were of ancient origin as this article was written more than a year before Joseph Smiths death.

Also, I recollect in my past reading that William Clayton was highly regarded as a reliable and trusted scribe.

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Posted by: dodo ( )
Date: August 13, 2017 03:49PM

Sometimes when Honest TBM posts something here, I wonder if it's for real or if it truly is satire. With this posting I wondered once again so I prayed about it. Isn't that what gawd wants us to do when we don't know something? What happened next astounded me; I found my damn car keys and I didn't even know that I had lost them. Now if that ain't inspired intervention, then I don't know what it.

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Posted by: drunksailor-not logged in ( )
Date: August 13, 2017 04:01PM

Another great translation to study is the Caswall incident, where the prophet (Agent Smithwell) translated a Greek Psalter given to him by Henry Caswall.

There's a trend here.....

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