I went to a team building meeting this morning at work where we had to define our own personal values and compare them to others. For the record, mine were: Knowledge, Personal Growth and Security.

Half of the people in my group listed "Religion" as one of theirs, which at first made me bristle. As they talked about their churches, being a sense of communtiy and a place of support, I reflected on my own religious experiences and realized that I didn't like religion because of the abuse I suffered from the LDS Church. I was very dedicated to the LDS faith until I was ~25, and then the wheels fell off.

I'm guessing others here can relate. I was a bit jealous of my co-workers having such a positive relationship with their respective churches, especially considering all the time and devotion I'd given to Mormonism for so little in return.

I can only relate to Protestant churches but most don't have as many rules and regulations or *personal* worthy interviews.

While growing up, I remember the pastor only coming to our house for dinner once or twice. No one pestered our family to DO callings. One would sign up where they felt they could be of service: Choir, luncheon/refreshments, nursery, teacher. I remember my Dad was a Deacon and also did maintenance/gardening around the place. And tithing was whatever you wanted to give. If you put it in an envelope with your name, you received a statement at the end of the year in the mail. No meeting. No guilt. No chastising.

My Mom still attends and signs up for various things, but it is mostly a social thing. She has known some people for over 50 years, unlike the Morg, where people come and go and are just a number filling a seat/calling.

axeldc Wrote:

> I'm guessing others here can relate. I was a bit
> jealous of my co-workers having such a positive
> relationship with their respective churches,
> especially considering all the time and devotion
> I'd given to Mormonism for so little in return.


Yes. I felt that way. A psychologist friend of mine belongs to a local evangelical church. He is on the liberal side so some of the doctrine and attitudes derived from it don't set well with him, but it is his "home" and he has deep friendships. When people in the congregation want to do something, an activity or organize a group, they just do it. No need for permission from the pastor or a corporate headquarters. The church is run by a board and the pastor serves at their pleasure. Doctrine and ideological differences aren't nearly as important as how members treat one another.

The Mormon Church gives far too little back for what it demands. The low convert retention rate and the bleeding of their young people tells the story. The high suicide rate of less-active and non-Mormon males in Utah is a further demonstration of just how unsupportive and even toxic Mormonism is when it is the majority culture. I think it is a good test of a religion or belief system to see how well people do when it is a majority, and Mormonism fails in some important ways.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2011 12:16PM by robertb.

i know what you mean!

The thing that hurts me is how those men are just like the Pharisees. The pharisees were NEVER interested in God, seeing as he was in their midst and they couldn't see it.

They were only concerned about their position, they are more interested in keeping men as in people separated from GOD and their status.

I mean when the greatest thing E. Nelson had to share is that we have to stand up when they walk in...why?

It bugs me that they mess up our relationship with deity. GOD gets a bad rep.

I totally get you!

Chin up mate, it does get better once you realize God loves you unconditionally and that when difficult things happen its not because you are being punished or didn't keep the commandments well enough [as if anyone can, and besides what a moot point seeing Christ fulfilled the law. I mean would you take your paint brushes to Italy to finish the cistine chapel? DUH!]

Here's to being blind and now we see!

then what's all this talk in your bible about hell?

My dear man...what is poverty to a wealthy man?

When you have money why would you talk about poverty?

I don't care about hell, it has nothing to do with me!

Just like I don't talk about poverty, it has nothing to do with me!

Now if you don't feel loved by God, I respect that as your opinion. Of myself, I know HE loves ME. I can only speak for ME.

Me, I agree -- a God who loved me unconditionally wouldn't have a place of eternal torment waiting to torture me in. The two are completely incompatable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2011 02:26PM by Rebeckah.

Does God love you enough to respect your choices?

But people cannot simply CHOOSE to believe in something they find completely WRONG and nonsensical.
Some of us do not believe that the God of the Universe could be so petty as the God in the Bible.
I like to say to Christians, "God is WAY bigger than you think."
God does not care about religion. God does not care about theology.
Somebody made all this crap up to control you, to keep themselves in power.

Having never met God yourself, you have no idea what is right or wrong, just personal prejudices.

Would you ever build a torture chamber in your basement and torture your children for any reason at all?

Edit: And doesn't "not worrying about poverty" directly contradict the teachings of your so-called savior-deity? This is the exact kind of behavior kolobians are guilty of. So because you're rich you don't need to worry about the poor? How x-ian of you...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2011 06:06PM by kolobian.

Oh my goodness...That is not what I meant and you know it.

First...believe or disbelieve what you may, I respect that.

To be rich is not to say I am not concerned about the poor, now you are just twisting my words.

If I am wearing clothes why do I need to worry about being naked? Does that mean because someone else is naked I can't do something about it? Of course not. I go get them clothes. I don't sit there and judge them.

They don't sit there and judge me cause I am clothed and they are not. You know that is not what I am meant.

No I would not build a torture chamber for my children and I do not believe that is what GOD has done.

And YES GOD IS BIGGER THAN ANYTHING I COULD EVER IMAGINE. How else do you think I realised Morgdom is rubbish? Well for women anyway, for men at least you get to have sex with many women to make children...BUT from what I have read, looks like you can't even enjoy that!

This is exactly what kolobians do. "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it."

What exactly was jesus talking about when he talked about hell? Are you a pseudo-christian who thinks hell is a metaphor for "separation from god?" What exactly does that mean, then?

Is there anything your children could do that would make you forbid them from entering your presence? Would you destroy/annihilate your children if they disobeyed you?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2011 07:38PM by kolobian.

then there would be no hell, no judgment, and everyone would be "saved".
The truth of Christian theology is that people actually DO have to DO something to be saved. I don't know why people can't see that.
First, you are required to accept a particular theology and believe it is the truth.
Then, you are required to say a particular prayer to this particular god.
Thirdly, you are required to continue believing...

So, if you simply cannot and do not believe in this theology, then "god" really doesn't love you and you will burn in hell for all eternity. All because you don't think the Judeo-Christian theology makes any sense on any level. For that, you burn in hell. Just for that.

Well not much I can say about that because I know you are speaking for you and from your perspective and I respect that.

I do have a different view point because I have lived a different life from you, because we are two separate and distinct people right!

I am just sharing my journey in my process, and I love that you can share your journey.

Thank goodness we don't have to agree to talk...now that was one thing about MORGdom that I detested!

So I know what I am talking about.
You must accept the theology. If you don't, "god" doesn't love you.
If you really think about it, you will have to admit that YOUR god doesn't love ME. Your god loves YOU, because you believe the theology and have said the prayer and have continued believing.
Those who do not believe are "lost". You know this is what you believe.
So, your god's love is NOT unconditional. Never has been. Even your own Bible talks about God "hardening the hearts" of certain people so they would not "believe" (accept the theology/story).
What kind of unconditional love is it that would "harden" somebody's "heart" so they would not believe?
This is what I mean by it making NO sense on ANY level -- not emotional, not spiritual, not logical.

What precipitated your transformation, if I may ask?

For me, it was studying Mormonism and seeing so clearly how made up it is. From there it was a very short step to seeing how implausible Christianity in general is. :)

It came from inside myself. What I knew to be true at the core of my being, emotionally, spiritually, whatever, was completely at odds with much of the teachings of Christianity. It did not make sense at any level, especially because in order to accept New Testament theology, you also have to accept the Old Testament theology it is based on -- that God set up a system of blood sacrifice (human or animal) to pay for "sins".
So none of it made sense.
It did take years to completely get rid of some of the emotional elements (FEAR) that was involved with that belief system.
Now that I don't believe the stories, there are no demons or devil to be afraid of!

I believe that researching Mormonism was only a catalyst for the discomfort I already was feeling. The teachings of hell and the rabid attacks on homosexuals particularly disturbed me. Researching Mormonism just gave me a way of looking at my own faith and taking my concerns to their logcial end.

Thanks for sharing! :D

seriously, a person can murder, rape, commit genocide, enslave other humans, and all they have to do is pretend out loud that a flying jewish zombie commited suicide on a cross and they get a free pass... lovely doctrine.

the thing about aliveinchrist that bothers me most is that he/she has repeatedly asserted they are african-american, yet the bible was the #1 tool used by slave-owners to justify slavery. the god of the bible not only endorsed slavery, but he gave specific commandments on who could be enslaved, for how long, how to designate them as slaves, he even said it's ok to beat your slaves as long as they don't die.

but i suppose whatever bronze-age prophet wrote those scriptures was "speaking as a man", right?

are direct from GOD and which are the words of man.

It is a funny thing I have no idea what the theory of relativity is, or what it does, but I am not mad at einstein because he get it and the million others who do. I am just glad someone does.

If you don't like the God who sets terms well OKAY, but why be mad at me because I accept it.

Or better still if I just show up at your home and set up shop and live there and do what the hell I want...I have a sneaky suspicion it is not going to fly with you.

But you are saying you have the right to determine how and who has access to your pad etc, but God doesn't?

Just like I wouldn't just show up at your home and take over because I think I deserve it because I am awesome [and we know I am], I wouldn't show up at God's diggz and be like yeah my rights.

Goodness I can't even get into the white house.

I don't know who said you are not loved. What do you want me to say God is wrong and you are right?

And also, if you support tyranny you better believe you're going to be called out on it. Are you saying Nazis weren't complicit in the holocaust simply because "the fuhrer" set the terms? What kind of reasoning is that?

Are you asserting that the nazis were innocent because their fuhrer set the terms? Really?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2011 07:49PM by kolobian.

Now you are just being silly.

Terms are set and people choose.

If you choose the terms, well how can you then not be accountable?

You just want to argue your position.

God or your theology.
I am trying to have a logical discussion with you.
See, I think I am the one who "gets it", and you are the one who does not.

Ahhhh I see..."YOU" get it, "YOU" are logical. "YOU" are right!

Okay got it. So who gets to decide what is logical and what is not?

On that same vein how do we even that what we are saying or speaking is even real?

Why is the sequence of words or what we call words acceptable and now you see how this just could keep going on!

that has never occurred to a Mormon leader. Besides, the little people like cleaning the buildings.

Nothing says "sacred" to me like the smell of bleach on a fine sunny day.

Christian salvation is not dependent on a "particular theology". It is fully dependent upon trust in Christ for salvation.

In order to "trust christ" which really just a fancy way of saying "make-believe in a flying jewish zombie", you have to first understand why you're trusting in christ.

In order to understand why you need to trust in christ, you have to learn why you're in jeopardy. This is where theology comes in. A petty god with nothing to do (but knows its own future) decided to create beings that would have limited capacity (even though he could have made them just like himself), then created laws he knew in advance they wouldn't be able to keep, then created a torture chamber called hell, and may or may not have whispered to a few bronze-age superstitious men that as long as they "trust that a remote-controlled robot version of god killed himself on a cross" they won't have to go to hell, but if they use the brains he gave them he will torture them for eternity.

Nice try...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2011 03:31PM by kolobian.

Makes no sense whatsoever unless you accept the underlying theology.
So, it is COMPLETELY dependent upon a particular theology.

Then don't accept it, that's your choice, who can begrudge you?

I mean if some guy wants to get with me and I say okay that is cool.

Hmmm no nookie till you put a ring on it and he says no go...what right does he have to come back when I am with someone who accepted the terms and complain because he feels he has a right to it or thinks my terms were not fair!

Er...Ok

Isn't this the same problem with MORGdom.

I see hear a misunderstanding. My leaving the Church has nothing to do with GOD because they disparate. That is where I am coming from.

Now from what you are saying, you have a problem with God and MORGdome I don't know. On that I can't speak because to me they are not the same thing, but to you they may be. IDK.

Bottom line we have two different issues we are dealing with.

For you weak analogy to work, you have to be consistent with x-ian theology.

The guy that decides not to "put a ring on it" doesn't get the opportunity to "come back and complain" because you would have already put that guy in a torture chamber with no chance of rehabilitation. That, or you would have killed him. Those are the only two consequences for his not putting a ring on it.

You're purposefully omitting the parts of your theology that you don't like, just like kolobians do.

Basically you are right and the rest are wrong.

In other words I should let any and all who want to stick it to me to do so because they want to?

What is it you want? Not to go to a torture chamber? TO Go to a torture chamber, to be correct. What do you want?

You get to be Kolobian, so be it. I get to be AliveinChrist, so let me be it!

I have learned in my short journey...that
1. Hell is of no concern for me. I know Jesus spoke about it. It is of no concern for me.

You know as a kid I could nothing right. My dad was an abusive alchololic who beat the crap out of everyone.

He was emotionally, verbally, financially abusive. I can honestly say I thank GOD he did not molest me.

We were Catholic, then mormon [so looks like I was sucker for punishment there for a moment].

What I know today is this God is not to blame.

You are the one who is concerned about the torture chhamber, why does that now need to become my concern?

then you might as well have remained in the church. If you're not at all concerned with the implications of supporting a celestial tyrant that puts hitler to shame, I don't know what to tell you.

You're not concerned about hell because you're not going there? That's like a nazi soldier not worrying about the gas chambers because he's not jewish. You're still supporting totalitarianism. If that's cool with you, fine. But own it.

At least admit that your god endorses slavery which means you do too. Admit that your god is an ethnic cleanser, which means you support ethnic cleansing. Do you not see where this is going?

Kolobian I do see what is going on here.

That believing in God, according to your paradigm is unacceptable.

That my choices because they differ from yours is unacceptable

That my reasoning because it differs from yours is illogical.

You see God as a celestial tyrannt, I don't, you see God as endorsing slavery I don't.

If you don't beleive your god endorses slavery, then you don't believe the bible is the word of god. Without the bible, you wouldn't know about christ, therefore not accepting that your god endorses slavery is the same as saying you don't believe in christ. You should change your name to deadinchrist.

Examples:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

have fun with the cog dis...

Finally some scriptures.

Thank goodness I have read them.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe there is something I know makes everything you just said moot?

It seems to me that being black and believing in God is an issue for you.

Well are you black? Have you EVER actually sufferred the effects of blackness as I have?

What do you even know about being black? You are not black. I AM...so I the black one gets to choose.

And even if you were black...I would still choose the same.

WHY is the term slavery synonymous with BLACKNESS.

You said your god had unconditional love.
I have pretty much proven that to be false.

You actually DO have to do something to earn salvation, even if it's JUST believing in a particular theology.
I am not capable of believing in a nonsense theology, so, it is not a CHOICE for me.

So unconditional love is not the issue.

The issue here is that "YOU" can prove it and therefore "YOU" are right?

What is the issue? I am missing it.

So you are saying because it is not a choice for you, then it shouldn't be a choice to others?

Like I don't understand what the issue is.

Not "trying" anything just correcting misinformation posted above. Your response confirms the need from my perspective.

Accepting a particular theology is required before anyone can "Trust in Christ for Salvation".
In fact, trusting in Christ for salvation IS a particular theology.

Please explain exactly how one can "trust in christ" without:

A. Knowing who/what "christ" is
B. Knowing why they are in a position to need/rely on someone else instead of the themselves
C. Being able to make a distinction between trusting in "christ" or some other person

Pretty pretty please, with sugar on top, don't run away from the question. Thanks :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2011 07:32PM by kolobian.

I can see why this affected you. The Protestant churches I have been attending all my life have always given me a feeling of comfort, support, and community. I slipped away from attending church for only about 7 yrs. - 23-30. I knew I had to go back since I missed the associating one has with like minded people. Most people who are mormons couldn't possibly understand unless they tried it.

There has never been any forced attendance, forced service or any forced tithing. So right there are three things that make religion stand out as a positive rather than a negative. And living according to the 10 Commandments gives one a sense of well being, safety. Also sharing how grateful we are to God for all we have and for the people in our lives. It is not a surprise to me that many people mentioned religion as a treasured value of theirs.