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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 09, 2017 06:11PM

I was never seriously harmed by the mormon church, basically because back when I was 'faithfully attending' it was quite benign, compared to what it's up to in these latter days. I quit attending in 1975, prior to the inception of how revealed attendance should be done, the Three Hour Block. (Meaning that when I attended, it was the CoJC of Latter Day Saints, but now 50 year down the line, it should be the CoJC of Latter, Latter Day Saints. How long can latter days run?)

Many of us here have waxed fondly on what a nice church it was before correlation, when the Relief Society handled its own money and didn't take no guff from the priesthood and many mormons acted like Christians. We were proudly 'in the world, but not of the world. And I can't recall ANY mention of changing what we wore, brothers or sisters, to conform to a ghawdly standard,

I joke that mormonism forced me to graduate high school a virgin, didn't let me drink, smoke or do drugs, etc., but in reality, this all turned out to be a relatively good things. I grew up with wonderful people! It was their example that kept me from bolting from the church after my first temple session; I convinced myself that it had to be my fault that I didn't come out thinking it was the most wonderful thing that had ever happened to me. So I stifled my opinion that it was bat-shit crazy and juvenile.

If Jesus and I had grown up together in the old Las Vegas 2nd Ward, he'd probably be as pissed as I am about what they've done to the church of my youth.

It's always been an organization run by men, but now those men seem to be trying to handle Truth by simply running amuck. Kind of fun to watch, as long as no one you know gets hurt.

Not that what I think matters, because I'm still going to Hell. But I won't be lonely!!!

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 09, 2017 06:19PM

I agree with this i have been thinking of the past lately because it did seem tamer back in the 80s and 90s it didnt even cross my mind that it was a cult just another church with more revealed information. But of course i never did the temple thing, if i had it probably would have traumatized me very badly and there would have been no denying it as a cult. This was all before the days of youtube when i could actually see what went on in there.

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Posted by: granny ( )
Date: September 09, 2017 06:40PM

Being the "granny" that I am, I'm with you about the good ole church. Yes before correlation there was a little freedom of spirit one could exercise. An assignment in Sacrament meeting to give a talk was given with the freedom to speak as the spirit moves. The social life was more fun, from dances, to road shows, ward activities, and service.

This better social church was of course offset by the absolute taboo on questioning the fundamentals including the weird temple throat slashing.

So the truth is out, and the fun is gone. Not a good recipe for survival.

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 09, 2017 08:17PM

I asked my dad once if he did the throat slashing in the temple and he flat out lied to me and said no.

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Posted by: Lovechild nli ( )
Date: September 10, 2017 03:45AM

The Annual Relief Society Bazaar

The Gold and Green Ball

The Road Shows

All dead and buried and mostly forgotten... Happened when I was a child and it wasn't a crime to disagree with the Bishop and it wasn't a crime to enjoy yourself.

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Posted by: Unindoctrinated ( )
Date: September 09, 2017 07:05PM

I was born in 1951 and am a sixth generation BIC. I didn't leave until 2005. My cultural heritage was one of extreme misogyny and the subtle but ever-constant residual effects of polygamy. I was to be seen and not heard (and I'd better look good while not talking). Women were seen as breeders, and men wanted the fanciest their wallets could "buy." I can't count the number of times I heard as a child, "No wife of mine is going to work." I overheard endless jokes about wives being kept pregnant and in the kitchen and very unfunny comments about the fun of acquiring more wives. Snicker. Snicker. Wink. Wink. This was southwestern Wyoming almost on the Utah border.

I was a good-hearted, curious, gregarious, trusting, hopeful little girl hearing all of this about my mother, sister and me.

The good old church was no good to me. The only thing that made it bearable and the activities any fun were the kindness and generosity of individuals, certainly not the f****ng church.

At least that was my experience. Anything good that ever happened within that environment was due to loving individual connections, not the steady stream of bullcrap I was being fed.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: September 09, 2017 07:45PM

I had not been forced to relocate to another State, due to employment. The ward I was baptized into, in the Deep South, was like a family. Literally. Everybody knew everybody else's business, but in a benign sort of way.

Parties were fun. I enjoyed the fact that there were never furniture burns left by carelessly abandoned cigarettes, nobody ever got drunk, nobody ever (as far as I knew) made "moves" on somebody else's spouse. Everybody was friendly.

I joined the church as a divorced mom of one child, and I felt completely accepted. I thought the religion itself was a bit hokey, but I never said so. It was the people in the ward that I loved.

We were THERE for each other. I got a call very late one Friday night, asking if I could rush over to the local hospital and spend the night with an elderly sister whom I barely knew. She had been in a bad car accident. She and her husband were both delightful people. She wanted somebody to talk to, to help keep her mind off her pain.

She told me some wonderful stories, about growing up Mormon in the very early days of the 1900s. I will never forget one she told me about when she and her husband lived in a cabin out in the middle of Nowheresville, Utah. It was during a snowstorm, and their phone service was out. Their young daughter was desperately ill with something (I forget now, what it was), and her husband ventured out in that terrible weather to find another priesthood holder, to give their daughter a blessing.

The daughter had a high fever, and had had a few convulsions, and the mother was frantic with worry for both her child and her husband, out there in the storm somewhere. Her husband finally trooped in, after several hours, with another priesthood holder. In the meantime, Mom had been trying to keep the daughter hydrated, and keeping a croup kettle bubbling away near her bedside, to ease her breathing. I forget what other remedies she used, but it was fascinating pioneer-age stuff.

Dad and the other PH did their magic mumbo-jumbo, and sure enough, the daughter gradually began to recover. her fever went down, her breathing eased, and she eventually healed. I later knew the daughter as an adult. (I didn't like her much; she wasn't nearly as sweet as her parents.) But the story was enthralling, told with complete sincerity, and I was very fond of that dear old couple.

I was pretty wiped out the following morning, when another RS sister came to take over, but I was deeply impressed with the ward's commitment to "be there" for each other. It was simply a given.

When I had to make an emergency trip to California, because my widowed mother was ailing, somebody from the ward was able to check on my cats and feed them, while I was gone. (I was divorced at the time, and very alone.) The ward people also brought in my newspapers and mail, and made sure that the cats had water.

This was in the late 1980s - pre-correlation, I think. When I moved to NM in mid 1989, the new ward was a complete shock. The people were cliquish and snobby, and the feeling of "family" was definitely missing. It was a HUGE disillusionment.

I have often wondered what my old ward is like, now. I can't imagine that those people, who seemed so kind and caring to me, could have changed into the stuffy Morgbots that I have seen elsewhere. If they have, I don't want to know about it. I would rather cherish the memories that I still have.

The church sucks, but those people didn't.

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Posted by: want2bx ( )
Date: September 09, 2017 09:31PM

I've wondered the same thing, Catnip. If I had never moved to Utah, would I still be an active Mormon?

I grew up far away from Utah and was raised by fairly liberal convert parents with no other LDS relatives. I moved a lot when I was young, but nearly every ward we moved into was much like the ward you describe...welcoming, friendly and like family. People in these wards came from all walks of life, but everyone was accepted.

Then I went to BYU and later married and stayed in Utah. I can't think of a single ward in Utah that I've been in that wasn't cliquish, gossipy and judgmental. Utah wards were so much different than the wards of my youth. And besides that, moving to Utah exposed me to a side of the LDS church that I had been sheltered from before. For instance, I had no idea that the church basically runs politics in Utah.

I definitely left the church because it isn't true, but I believe the culture in Utah made me question the church in the first place.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2017 09:52PM by want2bx.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: September 10, 2017 01:14AM

but it is so much closer to Utah.

In my first ward, you would occasionally run into someone from Utah, who would put on airs and act high and mighty. But nobody made anything of their rude behavior, and without the attention these people apparently craved, they generally knocked it off and behaved themselves.

The majority of the ward members were converts, or the children of converts, and the attitude of facing Mecca (SLC) while praying didn't permeate down there. So there was none of the "entitled" behavior of people who were Mormon royalty or nobility. That kind of thing simply did not exist.

I don't know if it was correlation that made the difference, or distance from SLC, or what. But that first ward was something special.

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Posted by: siobhan ( )
Date: September 10, 2017 08:36AM

It was the South.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: September 09, 2017 08:11PM

I've always found it awful in all of its phony manifestations.

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Posted by: badassadam ( )
Date: September 09, 2017 08:16PM

I definitely do now, i was totally clueless that people were slashing their throats when i was younger.

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Posted by: brigidbarnes ( )
Date: September 09, 2017 09:25PM

I remember everything being better in the 70's. I would never have joined up with the way it is now. Still, I wish I had never joined at all. But I was a lost and desperate teenager, and I had to fit in somewhere. I would love to see the LDS church fail completely, and I hope it happens in my lifetime.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 09, 2017 09:27PM

From your lips to the colander!

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: September 10, 2017 01:37AM

The focus of training (aka indoctrination) has slowly but consistently shifted away from Honesty & Kindness to Follow your leaders, they know what is right.

That's my drum-beat, and I'm sticking to it...

One Example: Some do-gooder started a lds-oriented "news" sheet ("The Seagull") & dropped off a stack of copies in the (Redmond WA stake) chapel foyer... A little news, plus trolling for advertising...

I was the First (only?) one to complain, & I got the raspberry for doing so...

Two Example: I testified before the State Parks & Recreation Commission <NO MENTION OF LDS OR RELIGION>, Several ppl ratted me out to theBp. Who promptly put me on 'Probation', which I'd NEVER HEARD OF!

Yup, That's a Cult!

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: September 10, 2017 11:15AM

It was double secret probation.

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Posted by: SufferMy Life ( )
Date: September 10, 2017 08:23AM

Well Elderolddog, we must be about the same age & with many of the same experiences.
I loved our LDS Ward in the late 1960's growing up in Orange County Calf. Great leaders who allowed us to have amazing activities and build a strong testimony at the same time:

Roadshows each summer -gone
20 minute dances each week after our MIA classes - gone
Beach Parties in HB - gone
Super Activities - gone
One time our ward MIA even went to Hollywood to dance on a teen show called "9th Street West". No way this could happen today.

I remember when they started changing the "rules"... no more spaghetti strap dresses. Next was no more 2 piece swimsuits (that evil Annette & Frankie). This one really upset us California girls during the Beach Boys era. My sister & I were so upset when visiting a small town in Utah that next summer and there in the 24th of July parade, sitting on a convertible, was the local Bishop's daughter in a bikini. They hadn't heart of that new revelation yet... apparently it was just for us beach kids.

Sleeveless tops were AOK. (That's NASA jargon for you youngn's)

I remember a BIG issue with the parents was a new Rx called Birth Control pills. There was much division about this evil new drug. And men were NEVER to be snipped! (My Mom told me that my Dad was snipped because she'd had such a hard delivery with her youngest... but I was sworn to secrecy!)

I don't remember there being a lot of judging - except about sex. (See Natalie Wood in, was it love with the proper stranger about abortion??) But that seemed to be more about the morals of the times than just the LDS church.

I was expected to get married... and when I told my TBM Dear Dad that I wanted to go to college, was gently told that doing so would be a "waste of money since I'm only going to get married and stay home to raise kids". (And with this private airplane, money was NOT an issue.)

I don't know where along the way the church decided to suck the life out of the youth programs. As a TBM Young Woman's counselor, we were advised that all activities had to be 100% spiritually based. Now they have passed this philosophy onto the R.S. as well. No more craft days, just fun women's outings. Such a shame.

Just prior to getting married, I told my soon to be husband (and institute president) that I had concerns about Horses in the BoM. He took me to the CES institute director who told me to... wait for it... pray about it, because archaeologist don't really know everything ya know.

That approach sadly has not changed. It took me decades, but I finally got out.

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Posted by: SufferMy Life ( )
Date: September 10, 2017 09:57AM

Ohhh...just thought of another oldie movie that tells of the morals and the HEAVY price girls had to pay...Splendor in the Grass. (Not Pot Related). Really, this is how a girl was "ruined" back then.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 10, 2017 10:00AM

Marjorie Morningstar, where at the end, Marjorie's proper accountant/fiance decides to go ahead and marry her, despite her brave admission that she is not a virgin.

(Well, I didn't see the movie, but that's how things wind up in the book.)

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: September 10, 2017 10:55AM

Are you saying it was a shinier turd back then ?

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: September 11, 2017 11:57AM

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Posted by: slskipper ( )
Date: September 10, 2017 11:51AM

I keep going back to this theme, but I believe it is significant. IMO the most important influence on the modern Mormon church is the fact that the Second Coming never came.

Before 2000, you could establish any number of new rules, restrictions, and responsibilities for the church and its members because of a shared goal of preparing the church to receive Jesus when he comes again. There was a two-way contract in that the church would place restrictions on itself and clean up its act, and then after the big event all would be relaxed as the forces of evil would dissipate enough that the saints could let their hair down a little and have fun again.

But the big event never happened. That much us obvious. So now the church is stuck. It cannot retract its austerity initiatives, because Jesus might come after all. The church simply has no purpose in the event that Jesus never comes at all. The Buddhists do. The Muslims do. The Navajos do. But Mormonism is left with nothing but an empty shell of inflexible formulas and obsolete warnings.

IMO the time is ripe for a new religious event. We are already seeing some, in the form of Denver Snuffer and the like. I don't know what form it will take. But it will have to satisfy people's need for individual religious experiences and personal fulfillment on their own terms, including unfettered social interaction.


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Posted by: Pooped ( )
Date: September 10, 2017 02:13PM

Elder O.D.

My sentiments EXACTLY! I joined the church in the midwest later than you, as a convert, and it seemed so benign. I actually thought I'd joined another protestant church since I was anything but a religion scholar. It wasn't until I went to BYU that I started seeing the crazy stuff. And even then I chalked it up to just being a few oddball members who had weird ideas of their own. Thankfully, the BYU boys were a huge turnoff for me. Then it all came together as I realized that these weird members were getting their weird ideas from the church! I began a course of self study to "know my religion" and I was blown away.

But still, going through my teens and 20's as a non-drinker, non-smoker, not pregnant out of wedlock, Mormon wasn't the worst thing that could have happened. There are quite a few alcoholics in my family tree and I might have, otherwise, joined that illustrious group had it not been for a couple of dopey missionaries that knocked on our door back in the day. But today, had I been invited as a teen to join LDS, Inc. I have no doubt I would have seen the crazy right off the bat.

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Posted by: Pooped ( )
Date: September 10, 2017 02:51PM

Oh, I forgot to mention that one big appeal of Mormonism for me as a convert was that they constantly, I mean CONSTANTLY, almost every Sunday, spoke about free agency. How God will never force us to do anything. I felt like God really did want me to live my own life, do my own thing my own way, and be my own person.

In my last years as a Mormon, free agency was never spoken of let alone encouraged. It seemed that the whole nature of Mormonism had been turned on its ear. Obedience was the Montra and free agency was abolished. Free agency is what I missed most when I left.

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Posted by: Elyse ( )
Date: September 11, 2017 12:57PM

I had the same experiences growing up in So. California.
You were supposed to develop your highest self and the church was there to help you.

By about the mid 80s the church had shifted noticably - all of a sudden you were supposed to be their servant/slave.

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Posted by: Omergod ( )
Date: September 10, 2017 11:46PM

Can you post my favorite song and video EOO

My favorite song is Lovely Day, by Bill Withers, (accompanied by various renditions and such)

Probably, the best video ever, is by Duran Duran. Save a Prayer

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Posted by: Omergod ( )
Date: September 10, 2017 11:47PM

EOD, sorry

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 10, 2017 11:53PM

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Posted by: iris ( )
Date: September 11, 2017 01:36PM

Lots of wonderful people in my ward growing up with few wackos. This was in Henderson in the 1960's graduating high school in 1970. Road shows, dance festivals, girls camp in Mt. Charleston, Saturday night dances in the gym at the church but the dogma was strong. Our stake president was a state senator and was very much loved and respected (even though a Democrat). I was kicked out of my senior year seminary class because the teacher (a bishop from the neighboring ward) taught that if we didn't make it to the celestial kingdom, we would spend eternity without female or male body parts. I voiced my opposition to that teaching using the teachings of Alma, met with the seminary coordinator for clarification which resulted in being bounced out of my class and moved to the Freshmen class to finish the year.

The church today is very different today but the dogma is still there. It starts in Nursery and never ends.

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Posted by: southbound ( )
Date: September 11, 2017 03:43PM

It used to be the church was there for the people. In the 80's it switched and people were there for the church. Big difference. The church should always be there to serve the people, not the other way around.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: September 11, 2017 04:08PM

It makes sense that it was about this time that Diversion Day became Preparation Day, in the mission field. Why had ghawd allowed his authorities to cluelessly allow the D-Day scandal to go on for so long before correcting it to P-Day, and sucking more joy out of the mission experience?

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: September 11, 2017 04:38PM

We had some great ward campouts in the late 70s and early 80s. We we went hiking, played sports, rode bikes and horses (3 members brought 6 horses), went sailing, swimming and water skiing. This was the last time I remember seeing "temple endowed" members swimming in a public venue. Even the YM prez enjoyed getting tossed into Donner Lake by the a gaggle of priests. These good times quickly disappeared as the church became more rigid in their asinine rules.

I also remember many of the older members that acted kindly toward the youth. They took interest in whatever we were involved in outside of the church (sports, hobbies, interests, school etc.). I think many remained active because the church was more social (in a positive light) back then. My ward also had a special banquet to honor them (80s club) twice a year. The youth would interview them and create a giant collage about their life that went way beyond "I served as blah-blah-blah in the church." The seniors really appreciated them.

I was shocked when I learned that the new BP had dropped those dinners due to the new ward funding plan that was implemented in the mid 80s. Damn correlation!

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Posted by: relievedtolearn ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 01:53AM

Sorry for my ignorance: What is "correlation"?

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 04:48AM

I'm a nevermo so I'll leave it up to a real exmo to explain the nefarious details, but I found this in Wikipedia:

"In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), the Priesthood Correlation Program (also called the Correlation Program or simply Correlation) is a program designed to provide a systematic approach to provide consistency and implement uniform coordinated changes to its ordinances, doctrines, organizations, meetings, materials, and other programs and activities."

It's basically a program to ensure that everybody in TSCC does/hears/says the same thing...

Tom in Paris

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2017 03:36AM by Soft Machine.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 08:34AM

Independent thinking wasn't going to be tolerated.

If mainstream Mormonism became a real moral, faith based religion, how long do you think it would be before people would begin to look into the financial and other dealings of LD$, Inc.?

Mormonism is and always will be a fraudulent cult with a single purpose -- to serve the corporation as the corporation sees fit.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2017 08:35AM by anybody.

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Posted by: Curelom Joe ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 10:11PM

It was said in the former USSR that the education system was so lock-step, so programmed, that a teacher could be picked up and flown overnight to another classroom a thousand kilometers away, and find that her morning class was on the same page as her old class would have been.

Correlation was, I think, part of the Church's overall program in the late 1960s-70s-80s to quell any potential dissent, questioning, or independent movements or behavior, anywhere, anyhow, including classes, ward finances, headstrong wimmen (the RS), hippie weirdos with beards, "questioning intellectuals," etc., etc., and make the institution bullet-proof against any innovations arising "from below," outside of the Q-12 and the COB.

Think of it as the ideological-standardization part of a trend that included banning facial hair for male students at BYU etc., or for that matter on any man who wanted to hold a church office above maybe ward librarian, taking control of RS spending away from RS, "doctrinally sound" manuals with no deviation allowed and supplementation not encouraged, and so forth and so on.

Correlation also ended all the free-wheeling self-made entertainment that disappeared two or three generations ago now, such as the road shows, fun dances, merry picnics, and normal fun that have been mentioned in this thread.

Correlation is Stalinism in temple garments.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 10:42PM

1950s era mores via the Mormon Microcosm.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 09:59AM

As long as there's golf in hell, old dog, we'll be fine there together. Even if it's hot as hell on the front nine :)

Yeah, the church was more fun and more socially-oriented when folks our age were growing up in it. There are parts I remember fondly. Then I think about "LDS Child Services," and all the pregnancies of single young mormon girls they forced to fruition and then whisked away the babies to be raised by some worthy couple, with the "birth" mother never seeing the child again. And then I think about the church's institutional racism, which kept an entire state (and then some) in the 1940's well into the 21st century. Then I think about all the other damage this "fun" church did to so many people...and I don't remember it so fondly. In fact, I see the "fun" as a cover-up for the dastardly, disturbing behind-the-scenes stuff going on. And that's what makes me raise my middle finger every time I drive past one of their ward buildings or temples...

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Posted by: Breeze ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 10:34AM

Pooped wrote:

"It wasn't until I went to BYU that I started seeing the crazy stuff. And even then I chalked it up to just being a few oddball members who had weird ideas of their own. Thankfully, the BYU boys were a huge turnoff for me. Then it all came together as I realized that these weird members were getting their weird ideas from the church!"

This is exactly what happened to me!

The BYU teachers of the MANDATORY religion classes were teaching different doctrine, than what I had been taught in seminary, in my home state. What was going on, with "eternal truths"? I remembered my lessons well, and would not be convinced that my recall was faulty. I knew that certain doctrines had changed, during those few years.

At BYU, I called my RM brother, back home, to verify that we had been taught that "Negroes" were born with a black skin, because they had been the souls "sitting on the fence" during the war in heaven. I had been ridiculed in religion class, for voicing that concept.

As the Mormon doctrines and history were changed, we were "gaslighted" into believing that we were mistaken in our previous learning.

It really happened:
Free Agency was changed to "Agency"

We were forbidden to talk about Blacks not having the priesthood. The new lessons read that black people were sealed in the temple, in Joseph Smith's day. (As his servants in the hereafter).

I always knew that JS was a polygamist. Everyone knew, in those days. You can imagine the response when I corrected the religion teacher, when he said Emma was JS's only wife! "Yes, but, my ancestor was Joseph's neighbor, and I read his diary, and the diary mentions JS's other wives...." By the way, the BYU confiscated that diary from my aunt, saying that they wanted it for their "archives", and that our family could have access to it, whenever we wanted. Several of my cousins and I tried many times to access it, at the BYU library, and we never were able to. I'm sure the cult destroyed the damning evidence.

I wonder what was at the root of this correlation movement? Was it a church president that came up with it? I really would like to know!

My California ward was much like what elderolddog described. We were friends. The very rich members helped the poor members, and everyone was included. My mother was RS president for 6 years, and the Christmas bazaar was amazing! The RS made money, to renovate the bathrooms and kitchen in the ward house (which the members built themselves). The cult sold that building to the Seventh Day Adventists, who sold it to the Scientologists, who tore it down and built houses on the land. Both wards, and our entire stake disappeared, and membership is dwindling.

What is my old home ward like now? Whenever we visited my elderly parents, we would go to church with them. They lived in the same house for 50 years. The new ward was two towns away, and eight towns were crowded into one meeting. The talks were uninspiring, and most of them were read (from old GA conference talks). Even the music was drab, lowered in key, over-simplified, hushed, slowed down. There were few teen-agers, and not enough Deacons to pass the sacrament, so some men had to fill in.

But, the biggest difference was that no one ever smiled. No one said "Hello." In conformity to the rules of "reverence", no one paused to chat in the chapel or the foyer. They silently shuffled to the next class, or left for home, or wherever they were designated to go. It was about this time that the word "Morgbot" came into being.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: September 12, 2017 10:30PM

>I wonder what was at the root of this correlation movement? Was it a church president that came up with it? I really would like to know!

This will give an overview of the history of the correlation program.

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Posted by: Breeze ( )
Date: September 13, 2017 10:30AM

Thanks for the link.

My cousin was in a high church position at the COB, and he told me his version of the reasoning behind correlation, which was a little different than the Wikipedia version.

He also said that the 3-hour block came about because of the energy crisis. He told me that the church wanted to ease the gas burden of families who had to drive to their meeting houses twice on Sundays.

I said, "Not to mention saving the church a ton of money, by not having to heating and light all those ward houses, during the week and on Saturdays, for the auxiliary meetings." He glared at me, and didn't respond.

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