In the first week of April I posted an anguished description of a conflict with my daughter which resulted in a couple of angry emails and her request that I not visit "for the time being."

Over simplified, the dispute had to do with me drawing a border. I felt that I had to insist that the children wear clothes when I visit, otherwise, I would just go home.

My second "demand" was to insist that my daughter allow me to handle discipline when her child disrespects me or acts inappropriately to me (i.e., hitting/spitting/swearing). What she had been doing was inserting herself between me and the boy and saying, "Now honey, you hurt grandma's feelings...." and proceeding with a form of mini-therapy based on Non-Violent Communication techniques.

My discipline technique is based on withdrawing attention, ending the game, leaving the room, turning my back or using a time out. Nothing violent or unusual.

I explained to my daughter that when she interferes, she disempowers the person. When she protects them, she sends a message that they are unable or not allowed to deal with him themselves. Which makes things worse.

I posted here that I decided I could compromise and tolerate all the other hippie things my daughter does, but on these two I just must draw a line. Posters here were all supportive and this enabled me to keep quiet about this dispute and not make it a family drama over two states. Thank you!

Since that time, there was a family birthday party (30 people) during which my daughter somehow thought we could "work things out" (!) Then there was a phone call in which I asked her if we could please talk about this in person and explained all the reasons being in person is important when relationships are at stake. She agreed and then talked for about an hour, then apologized for ignoring my request.

I invited her to dinner here last Thursday and we had the big talk. She offered a compromise on the nakedness, saying that she and her husband would be willing to keep underwear on the children, if that would be acceptable to me. I agreed.

I told her I would be willing to visit the children if she leaves the house and I will also be willing to have the children over to my place, one at a time. She looked aghast, as if to say, "how does that help me since I'll still have one kid?" and I answered, "It allows me to focus on each child separately and is better for them. Besides, I have a sportscar and there's only one passenger seat.

The time apart has been beneficial for both of us. It turned out not to be the alienating thing I feared, but rather a time for her to gain confidence in her mothering and for her to see what works/doesn't work without me being there to witness her "failure." Which is important. Her marriage is also better, she and her husband uniting using NVC and also lightening her schedule and dropping activities so she could have some unscheduled time around the house with the family (!)

We still have differing views on child discipline, but I have been able with this time to see that my experience with children does not qualify me to be the last word and that she has to find a way to mother that is comfortable for her, regardless of what worked for me and her siblings.

And, most importantly, that her rejection of the child raising methods I used with her is not a rejection of me.

Thanks for the support everyone.

Anagrammy

It sounds like both you and your daughter are willing to discuss issues and make compromises. That bodes well.

A friend of mine often sees her grandchildren one at a time. She gives them equal attention, albeit seperately. I don't think that it's that unusual.

If your daughter ever sends her kids off to school, she will get her awakening. Most classrooms are run like mini boot camps. It's the teacher's way or the highway! There are consequences for parents who fail to discipline their kids in the form of frequent phone calls, notes, conferences, suspensions, and requests to come pick up their errant child in the middle of the day. In some cases the child is sent off to a less pleasant school or even evaluated for ED programs.

keep her end of the bargain/compromise, and will need to be reminded of the boundaries, and restrictions, for compliance.

Going to school with those parent's style of parenting is going to be a huge problem for them and their children. There are some basic behaviors that are acceptable in our society. Don't comply and it's a very difficult world for the child and the parent.

These goofy parenting styles are going to fly in the face of almost all educational systems, big time!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2011 01:15PM by SusieQ#1.

Stay strong!

It sounds like things are going as well as can be expected. I'm glad to hear about progress rather than her entrenching even more firmly. Best wishes on the continued improvement on your and your daughter's relationship. :)

My peace came when I had an epiphany that I could do the same thing with my experiences that I am doing with my thoughts (Buddhist/New Age idea), which is to observe them without identifying.

If I step back a step, one or two, I realize this is about her wanting not to compete with me (she says I was a goddess in the home--she doesn't mean that in a good way, rather that it was artificial enthroning of myself to get respect).

This is such a struggle for me who ran a tight ship- everyone bathed, dressed, hair braided, fed wholesome food, properly educated, polite, etc. I pick up my grandchild and look for sticks in her hair while my daughter argues that naked children can get messy and it is so much easier to clean them up after a day of play.

My point is that this is the cutting edge of my own personal growth. The judging-- I must stop sending out my broadcast of disapproval in my body language and just relax with it.

Summer, thank you for your comments, and SuzieQ. My beautiful daughter will be corrected by the real world, when her children go to school. It has already begun in the preschool where she is being called in by the teachers to talk about the child's aggression and to "work with them" in solving the problem.

I feel so much more relaxed about this now, I'll keep you posted as the kids get older.

Anagrammy

It sounds like you're allowing her to make her own mistakes and learn from them. That's a tough process, but it sounds like the right thing to do to me.

I appreciate all your comments on this board, and you definitely have my love and support.

life in general, if we take an emotionally detached position -- that "step back" and not take on other people's situations on ourselves.

Yes, indeed, we can "broadcast" a lot of information (acceptance, positive, or non acceptance, negative) with never saying a word! :-)

Also, it's wise, I think not to take someone's perception on ourselves. Your daughters description of her upbringing is in her head, and is probably not in line with any of her siblings. That happens a lot.
Just like witnesses to a crime, they are the worse kind of evidence! :-)

the thing abt clothing caught my (nudist/naturist) eye...

How old are they? Do they leave messes when around your house without clothes(MAKE THEM CLEAN IT UP!)

Nudism is a GREAT lifestyle. If DD's a nudist/naturist, ask if you (+ your S.O.?) can join her!

guynoirprivateeye Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the thing abt clothing caught my (nudist/naturist)
> eye...
>
> How old are they? Do they leave messes when around
> your house without clothes(MAKE THEM CLEAN IT
> UP!)
>
> Nudism is a GREAT lifestyle. If DD's a
> nudist/naturist, ask if you (+ your S.O.?) can
> join her!


I thought you'd chime in...:-) I am almost positive they are not nudists. This is a parenting style.

anag: Is there a chance you're making an association between Nudity & the disrespect? Non-Starter!

Nudism... 'when done Right' teaches people to respect their bodies, (adolescent males) to not be overboard stimulated by the sight of a nude-naked female.

I think family nudity is SOMEWHAT a diversion away from Porn (Reality vs. Fantasy).

Naturism means doing a few more things Without Clothes, when appropriate/not offensive:

Skinny-dipping

free-hiking

gardening

even (GASP) doing the housework/yardwork.

playing Scrabble/Farkle NUDE/Naked are among my favorites!
(and, can be done Online!!)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2011 03:08PM by guynoirprivateeye.

take us one at a time. Those were some of the most treasured moments of my chaotic childhood. I finally didn't have to fight for every scrap of attention, for every toy, for a peaceful spot to stop and think. I got to observe adults in their native environment without being under constant attack from siblings.

Priceless.

proponent of grandma's taking one grand child at a time if at all possible.Individual time with grandma (and/or grandpa) is time that can't be made up elsewhere.

This topic has become a hot button in the whole family. It is called "The Nudity" and everybody knows what it means.

They are not nudists. It refers to selective nudity by just my daughter and the children and has to do with her openly nursing, popping the boob out casually for a few sucks as the child is on their way outside, etc., I have had to speak to her because my grown children, male and female, told me they were uncomfortable with it and said she was unresponsive to them.

Since I no longer believe in matriarchal or patriarchal hierarchies, rather in earned respect, I told them to draw their own borders. I was willing to share where I drew mine, but it is up to them to manage their relationship regarding The Nudity, not me. No more "I'm telling Mom"

It felt wonderful to say that. Being a General Authority is a burden humans were never meant to carry. I'd rather be Princess Nogod..

Anagrammy
( which incidentally spells Angry Mammy when shuffled.)

LOL

Ana:

Perhaps you don't care to tell the age(s) of the children involved, that's your call.

(just me?) I don't think anyone should be uncomfortable with breast-feeding <but I understand that there's 'More' here>

It's time people Get Over breast-feeding; it's been happening for a long, long time,and those getting the nutrition & mom contact experience Seldom Object...

objecting to breast feeding? Really???

Nor do they run around the neighborhood without clothes.

Annagrammy's daughter is setting her kids up for derision by insisting on these two activities and also by allowing them to spit, hit, and curse adults who don't give in to whims and childish demands.

here in Washington state (others?) laws protect moms who want to nurse their children in public.

I'm concerned that all the Real Problems here (can u spell DYSFUNCTIONAL?) are lumped together with nursing...

Still, we don't have anag.'s telling of the ages of the children involved, at least publically/online here; that would appear to be an important element, at least to me...

The women that I've seen nurse in public (including my SIL) have made an effort to be reasonably modest about doing so. My SIL always propped a baby blanket so that you never saw the breast directly (...perhaps just a brief flash if you happened to be looking when the baby finished nursing.) My SIL was never inconvenienced by doing this and nor were her babies. She nursed in restaurants, on park benches, etc. I never saw anyone object, nor would they have needed to unless they were extremely prudish. The other mothers that I've seen nurse publicly have followed the same model. These are the sort of nursing moms that laws have been designed to protect.

My impression is that Anagrammy's daughter is going a lot further than that in terms of exposure.

Sorry, I posted their ages in previous description of problem, but they are two and four. I personally did not have a problem with my daughters nudity while nursing or tandem nursing in her home. I nursed all my babies, was a La Leche volunteer lactation consultant. When I joined the church, the bishop told me not to nurse in Sacrament meeting because I was facing the bishopric and they found it "distracting" even though it was under a shawl. I had a lovely lightweight lacey shawl like a poncho for summer and a blanket style for winter. I never "popped" out a breast in public.

My daughter's complaining about my objecting to her nursing came from her paradigm of feeling she was never good enough. I was raised by a narcissistic mother, which gave me the gift all neglected children have, a preoccupation with fulfilling one's own needs, which spells n-a-r-c-i-s-s-i-s-m. Of course I can't just blurt that, but I did give her the book "Will I ever be good enough" subtitled healing daughters of narcissistic mothers.

First she will compromise with me (underwear required) on The Nudity. Then she will have to compromise with teachers or else teach homeschool (which will never work if you can't correct your children because of your extremely permissive parenting style). I am pleased that we negotiated some kind of compromise so that I can continue the wonderful relationship with my grandchildren that I have. It's not a problem for them, I just say, "At Grandma's we keep our clothes on."

Anagrammy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2011 01:13AM by anagrammy.

They're both old enough to be embarrassed by their infantile behaviors and their inability to curb hostile reactions. They both must know by now that society expects kids of their ages to comply with higher standards of consideration toward other children and adults.

I'm afraid the older child is at risk of being permanently damaged if he isn't taught better ways of dealing with his impulses and learning to take responsibility for his actions.

This kind of parenting doesn't help kids have healthy esteem as these parents think. It sets these poor kids up to look freakish to their peers and to be disliked by kids and adults alike.

I agree with Summer that it also undermines their academic learning. No one can learn hard subjects and produce good results if they can't control impulses long enough to gain new difficult skills and apply them to the subjects at hand.

These are not babies we are talking about.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anagrammy's daughter is setting her kids up for derision by insisting on these two activities and also by allowing them to spit, hit, and curse adults who don't give in to whims and childish demands.

Another consequence is that undisciplined children with severe behavioral issues often fail academically, even if they are quite bright. Succeeding in school takes a certain amount of willingness on the part of children to listen to adults and to comply with their demands. I would say that there is a strong correlation with compliance and discipline on the part of kids and school success. Sure, most teachers can handle lively and smart-alecky kids, but a child who has never or rarely had limits enforced at home will in all likelihood fail.

The shame is, often grandparents can see the need for discipline where parents cannot. But there is little the grandparents can do unless their offspring are willing to listen and learn from them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2011 06:34PM by summer.

Anagrammy, what you're describing sounds a lot like the narcissistic parental behaviors that are showcased on a site I recently discovered called STFU, Parents:

http://stfuparents.tumblr.com/

People send in screenshots of the Facebook status updates of their friends parental overshares, such as nasty pictures of poop / naked kids / etc., descriptions of similarly private things or sharing their stories of bad parenting behavior, and snarky comments that "being a mom" is the most important thing in the world, particularly on other people's threads having nothing to do with the topic (called "mommyjacking").

I spent quite a few hours going through the archive and enjoying the comments, and I think you'll find that the things that you're describing that bother you about your daughter's parenting style is very well reflected in the narcissistic parenting styles of too many other young parents, who think the world revolves around themselves (like not being able to accommodate other people not being comfortable with her breastfeeding in front of them), and their precious children, who they're raising to be budding sociopaths even worse than themselves.

So, yeah, I think you're completely justified to be a little upset when you see that kind of parental style and fear for the consequences down the road for your grandchildrens' ability to fit into civilized society, never having been told "no" or taught the benefits of delaying gratification and accommodating the desires of other people. Maybe the posts on "STFU, Parents" will make you feel less alone.

As I remember, Anagrammy's grandkids are walking talking and potty trained which is a bit old by US standards to be nursing. There are also some behavior issues involved such as DD not disciplining the little boy when he deliberately scratched or dented the car with a rock.The nudity wouldn't bother me as much if it were at home, but she does have some reasonable concerns about these kids.

Good for you Anagrammy!!!

Sounds like you were able to get your points across without DD turning off her ears and getting offended.

Some of what you described before still really doesn't sit right with me, personally, but it sounds as though you set good boundaries for their interaction with you, personally.

It sounds like anagrammy has legitimate concerns, and you are hearing this from a La Leche League Leader who nursed each of her babies 2 to 3 years. Nursing a baby (or young child) does not require Mom to strip naked or even bare her breast.

And a nursing toddler or child does not need to 'be nursed' anymore since they no longer require only milk for nutrition. Any nursing they do should be at their request and is therefore usually only done at nap or bedtime or for comfort. A Mom who is picking up and nursing her child rather than waiting for the child to ask is a Mom who is holding her child back and not letting him or her mature and is a Mom with some issues. She would be similar to the Mom who allows her 4 or 5 year old to continue using a bottle or binky. That could be why the child is acting out and hitting or spitting at adults--frustration at not being allowed to grow and mature; at still being babied.

Again--Mom does not need to strip down to do this and a sensitive Mom (one who is sensitive to her child and the people around her child) will nurse discretely. That includes covering herself with a blanket, turning away from the action in the room, or even moving to another location, if necessary.

Interesting note - according to my daughter, the four year old climbed in bed one morning a couple of weeks ago and was fumbling for a breast. She told him "no" and he said he was just going to say goodbye to them. She said she burst into tears and was sobbing. He told her not to cry, that she could still nurse the two year old and it would be "so much fun for you!"

I said nothing, wondering if my daughter realized that she was using her child to meet her own unmet emotional needs, and the other aspect of him comforting/parenting her as a reflection of her democratic parenting philosophy.

He has not nursed since (this was 2-1/2 weeks ago)

Anagrammy

I (still) think the cursing/hitting/spitting should be separated from the mention of nursing in most cases.

Isn't nursing a healthy, loving behavior that combines bonding with nutrition? What more would a mother & child relationship ask?

Sounds to me like there's only minor cross-over, if any at all.
me: Only in extreme cases should a child who wants to nurse be denied.... Where a 'reasonable' age says time to quit is Very Much an individual matter, isn't it?

That is certainly the norm.

But this mother isn't normal. Did your read the part about this mom unloading on her young child, bursting into tears over nursing and expecting *him* to take on the comforting protective parental in the family?

That is an unhealthy reversal. The mom has placed her gratification above the needs of this little boy.

You are assuming a non-existent bias against nursing in general and against public nursing which isn't a factor in this situation. I think sometimes nursing advocates can be too quick to lash out and they do their cause a disservice.

Cheryl is right--and I repeat: as a League Leader, I had concerns about this young woman using nursing in an unhealthy manner. And I most certainly do not have an 'anti-breastfeeding' bias!

Go back and reread the posts from the concerned posters: it is less the breastfeeding or the age of the child and more the manner in which the child is being handled.

I think anagrammy's description of the situation is clear enough to point to a young mother who is trying to do right by her babies but is clearly having difficulty with the method she has chosen. She needs guidance and I think anagrammy is doing a super job of balancing her daughter's need for guidance with her need for automomy while at the same time recognizing that there are two youngsters who need care and concern in the mix.

Go, anagrammy! I hope I have your sensitivity and sensibility when I have grandkids!

I think when to stop nursing is a personal choice, but four years old is not anywhere near the norm in our society. This kid is going to be teased by his peers if it continues. I do think the nudity providing it isn't public and nursing are separate from the behavior issues. It bothers me a lot more that one of the children deliberately damaged the car and mom didn't do anything.