As some of you know, I am currently dealing with an ex-wife who, because of my apostasy, wants to "severly limit" my visitation with my three-year old son when I move to Utah during the next few weeks. I mention this only for context, and do not wish to get into the legalities.

For the past 20 months, I have tried to gently persuade my ex to work with me on reasonable terms. I have capitulated on almost everythng she wanted up to this point, and she has only become more hard-line. Perhaps, more importantly, since moving to Utah, she has become less and less capable of self-actualization, and completely unwilling to change anything about herself, or question her own behavior.

I believe this has something to do with the LDS life narrative she has been taught: eternal progress toward perfection. In that paradigm, she feels compelled to believe that she is closer to God, and closer to becoming a goddess today, than she was seven years ago, when we were first married. She feels a compulsion to look over the years of her life, and see herself becoming more and more perfect. Otherwise, how will she ever make it to the Celestial Kingdom?

She cannot allow herself to even consider that she might have some fault in the divorce, and I do not make this a topic of conversation (I tried to do it tactfully once, and she went berzerk). Worse yet, she cannot allow herself to consider that someone less "spiritual" than her (i.e. an apostate), has any right to be near our son. She formed an opinon on this several months ago, and seems to feel that any compromise would mean admitting she was "wrong."

I believe this inability to examine her feelings and actions makes her more miserable. It is an enormous burden in a "latter-day saint's" life to feel required to show "progress" all the time. She really has to believe that she is a "good" person at all times, and I think it prevents her from letting herself feel human.

Combine an inability to self-examine with the teaching that all of her feelings are actually God speaking to her through the Holy Spirit, and you wind up with a person who is very hard to work with. How can such a person be wrong about anything without their entire life falling to pieces?

This pattern is not exclusive to Mormons, either. So many people lack the ability to challenge their own mental patterns. Often, such people will behave as if everyone who disagrees with them is somehow "evil," and they will play the role of victim. They spend an excess of time and energy trying to prove they are "right," and fighting to keep "bad" influences away, accomplishing little else.

A person without the power of self actualization thus becomes a burden on themselves and on the world in which they live.

When I left the Mormon church, I quickly found that I could recognize my shortcomings and work toward bettering myself, without living in shame that I was not living up to "God's expectations." It actually makes working on myself a lot easier to do. To say that I am "wrong," about something, or to admit to myself that I am a flawed human being actually makes me more at peace than if I felt required to dig in my heels and fight everytime someone questioned whether or not I was "right." I don't even have to believe I am "better" today than I was seven years ago. I am just different. Hopefully wiser, but not on some path where every day must be more perfect than the last.

And I am happy with myself.

I lament the fact that I have to file legal forms to force my ex to deal fairly with me and my son. It is especially regrettable that winning better visitation in this way will not help my ex better herself at all. It will just play into the idea that she is a victim, losing battles to an evil force. She will feel like a failure, instead of seeing a change in the situation as something that could be better for everyone.

Or, perhaps not. That is probably too much assuming. I will hope that living near me again, and seeing how kind I can be toward my son AND her, even in the face of her unreasonable behavior, will help her break through the life narrative and start working on herself. Only she can make that happen, though. And I believe LDS indoctrination will make it very tough.

Growing up with undiagnosed Asperger's, I was "wrong" so much that I learned early to get a grasp on the fact that no one is perfect, especially not me. I've seen that turned around on me as a "You are flawed but I'm not." message when I admit a struggle and try to improve it. (For instance, I've publically asked people to let me know when I come across as rude or insensistive so I can learn to recognize it and start improving my communication skills. Often this is met with indignation and claims that no one is required to help me with my communication skill, I should just stay off the internet if I don't know how to be kind and sensitive.) Honestly, this sort of approach to life baffles me. How can you possibly be happy if you are lying to yourself on a fundamental level?

Where I live there is a support group for fathers that helps with this sort of thing, offering emotional support and practical advice. I tend to think that there's probably something like that in Utah too. I could look up this group and ask them if they know of anything like that, if you'd like. Also, perhaps you can simply focus on with your ex on your son. Say things like; "I love little Johnny with all of my heart and I know it is important for his emotional and mental wellbeing for him to have a loving, involved father in his life. No one else can ever be the father to him that I can and will. You will never win if you try to remove me from his life. I love him too much to allow you to hurt him like that."

Of course, that could just be pouring gasoline on the fire but I know I'd probably try to keep every conversation about my son, what is best for him, and all the evidence on hand that it is best. My only other advice would be to see about a guardian ad litem to help with this. I know where I live what she's trying is strongly frowned upon. My state is pretty big on both parents being involved and mostly equal in a child's life unless there are major reasons to limit one parent's time. Religious beliefs don't count in that area. :)

Rebeckah Wrote:
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Honestly, this sort of
> approach to life baffles me. How can you possibly
> be happy if you are lying to yourself on a
> fundamental level?

Exactly.

If you want to email me the name of that group, it would be great. Overall, I am very optimistic.

Email me your Utah location, if you don't mind, and I'll see what I can find as close as possible. :)

But please email me at rgrtheshrubber@gmail.com

Thanks!

Adam

She sounds like a real pill. Stop worrying about her life and attitudes. You couldn't change them when you were married. You can't change them now.

The kid is 3. Whether he sees you for 5 or 50 hours in the next 2 weeks is not going to have a profound impact on the rest of his life. If your ex thinks she is going to protect him from all things non-faith promoting for the next 20 years, that is insane.

Most kids born 20 years ago are leaving LDS Inc in droves. I think that will be more true of those born now. You don't need to obsess so much on the present. Take the long view, and lead a good life. Things will sort themselves out. Your son will be bale to compare and contrast what your life is like versus his mom's life. I'm confident your's will look a lot more appealing.

My TBM ex-husband behaves the exact same way - he can never be wrong and he acts as if I am "evil". We fought about everything until I figured out that as much as he hates me, he loves his daughter more. When I always make it very clear that what I am doing is in our daughter's best interest, he finds it difficult to argue with me. The funny thing is that he still tries to find something to fight about, because it just doesn't make sense in his world view that he could be in agreement with his evil apostate ex-wife. So after we finish discussing issues related to my daughter and are in agreement, he has to end it with a sarcastic comment about something unrelated that he thinks I have done wrong. I just accept it as his need to validate his world view, where he is always the good guy and I am always the bad guy. The reality is, despite his sarcastic comments, we are learning to work together for the sake of our daughter, and that's what really matters.
When you say, "I have tried to gently persuade my ex to work with me on reasonable terms. I have capitulated on almost everythng she wanted up to this point, and she has only become more hard-line." I think that is exactly what you can expect. Any time you capitulate, it reinforces her idea that she is always right. On the other hand, if you oppose her, it reinforces the idea that you are the bad guy. The key, for me, was to choose the issues that I thought were absolutely most important for my daughter, explain clearly why it was in her best interest, and be firm on those issues. With everything else, I go along with his view and try to be as positive as possible, saying things like "I understand that you are trying to do what's best for our daughter." It's been a struggle for the last couple of years, but things are gradually getting better, and I hope it gets better for you too.

given she has or wants complete "control" over your son. I see no other way of dealing with her than the course you've set....kindness and legal filings. Good luck to you and keep us posted. I don't know why there has to be such acrimony with divorce, but there it is.

parents who once loved each other and have a child fight over who is the best parent, often lie and make up absurd allegations to get the upper hand in court.

The general idea in divorce these days is for both parents to have legal custody, one to have primary custody and the other to have 50/50 visitation or any variation of that.

The judge, in my experience (in CA-working with child custody cases as a monitor for supervised visitation), just rubber stamps what is worked out in the Parenting Agreement with a mediator (cheaper than using an attorney) which includes child support (or none), days and hours spent with each parent, which is often as close to 50% each as possible, especially when both parents live in the same general area,etc. Everything must be in writing, promises, and verbal agreements don't really count as they are not legal in most cases.

My view is that it's in the best interest of the child/children for the parents to live as close to each other as possible which gives easy access by the children to both parents. It helps to stay focused on the best interest of the child, in your view, and separate yourself from emotionally getting involved with how the other parent feels or thinks. Hard to do, though. In a divorce proceeding, it's not uncommon for both parents to "push buttons" and rile the other person up to get some advantage.

I am not giving legal advice, just reviewing how things generally work.

Hopefully, you can establish a calm routine that works well for both of you and the child.
My best wishes to you.

When it comes time for your child to enter school, it is handy to know that public schools are required to let non-custodial parents have full access to their children and their children's school records unless there is a court order stating otherwise. For instance, once you sign in at the school office, you are perfectly free to pop in on your child in the middle of the school day just to check up on him. As long as you keep this to once a week or so, most teachers love this because they can tell you about any pressing concerns they have.

It's in a parent's best interest to maintain close contact with your child's teacher. Get her email and make sure that she has your phone number. Initiate contact frequently. Drop by to see her every now and then (middle school teachers tend to like appointments, but elementary teachers are usually open to spontaneous, brief conferences, especially if they are before school or after school.)

A teacher can be a great advocate for a divorced parent. I have been interviewed by social workers regarding parental fitness, and have written letters to judges in support of concerned, involved parents.

That sounds like great advice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2011 02:49PM by rogertheshrubber.

I have a friend with PSTD Post traumatic stress disorder.
She said the hardest thing is to realize she is wrong and being irrational. She can't help herself most times.
This poor woman can barely function because she has chosen the hardline mormon life. It is tearing her up.

Concentrate on you and your son. Get an attorney to motion the court if necessary, or write a letter to your ex to spell out the visitation rights of a father.

And keep a log book!
If you two have planned to meet at a park where she can watch from a park bench while you and your son play on the play ground equipment and you get him ice cream from the ice cream truck realize she might stand you up! Just patiently put it in your log book. We planned this activity by phone for this day and etc. She did not show up. When I called she claimed to not remember. . . etc.

As you keep a log, and it will hurt to have crazy break appointments, it will establish a pattern, an obvious lifestyle or hostility for the courts to see that she is not cooperating with you in your rightful visitations with your son!
Without a record, or log book it is only he said she said as far as the courts and CPS are concerned. Keep a friendly calm attitude and let her be the emotional prone to raise her voice. Her behavior will be a big factor. And in Utah you probably can see your son very easily. Even if you are 'an apostate', you're still the Dad.

In Nevada the couples are not to be turning the children against the other parent.

Children can see the behavior and compare and contrast. My sister's kids watched their immature selfish dad act out many times in their lifetime. They saw my sister handle things in a calm and rational loving manner. When they grew up they chose spouses and friends that are loving and calm. Their immature Dad had shown them what a fool behaves like and they avoided them.

Right now is the moment you have. He is only 3. He wants to play with a truck, climb the monkey bars, throw a ball, feed ducks at the park.....etc. That is where he is at. "Follow the Prophet" will not sink in, but a fun made up song about we feed ducks snails.... will work. He will remember fun times with Dad. (Remember what you learn on this board, TSCC meetings suck and the people remember better times if they have them!)

When you talked about the fact that you suggested she might have some fault in the divorce you said she went "berserk".

Along with the tendency to think she's anything but perfect, inability to sympathize with you, control freak, and probably abusive . . .

It might be worth learning about narcissism, NOT to label her or blame her or fix her (because that AIN'T going to work), but rather to learn what to expect from her-or actually how to avoid her as much as possible.

The point is that a narcissist is NOT a normal person. They ARE going to fly into rages, they ARE going to be dishonest, they are NOT going to be able to look at themselves as they really are, but will always see themselves as the perfect model of what they think they should be. And if you challenge that perfect model . . . . you ARE going to be the target of rage.

I have a son with a daughter in Utah who had the same problem, but the law in Utah has the rights spelled out in the law as to the non custodial parent rights and they cannot be abridged because of arbitrary actions taken by the custodial parent. My son sent them a copy of the law and this stopped the illegal actions of the custodial parent. You might try this.

And there you have it.

The moment I started questioning was the day my joy came back.

The continuous pressure to "SHOW' progress is not unlike the burdens Pharisees placed on the Israelites, but would not lift a finger to aid them.

The very thing to aid them

Isn't it funny she is NOT PROGRESSING, she just has to show progress?

What a farce? Goodness I wish I knew her. The problem with Mormon women is they surround themselves with other Equally miserable MORMON women who are determined to make sure NO ONE IS HAPPY.


And that is it...MORGDom does NOT TEach the GOSPEL.

When Christ met the woman at the well, he knew what she had been up to...HE NEVER CONDEMNED HER, nor the WOMAN caught in adultery, the blind man, the syro-phoenician woman


MY point?

1. WE are the righteousness of GOD in CHRIST. God does not see us as sinners. He us as perfect like HIS Son.
2. There is therefore NOW NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ.

People are not perfected because they believe in Christ. THey are righteous and justifited.

The Spirit then works with you to BRING OUT the peaceable fruits of righteousness...not to leave you and punish you!

ARRRRRGH MORGDom and its false ANTI-CHRIST DOCTRINES!

I wish this would be made clear to MORGdom.

[NOt so that we can receive bunk, albeit fun revelations, but so that people stop persecuting people].

I mean as a mum it is time to now think about the little boy.

You see that is the issue with MORGdom SELF-Centeredness which is MISERY because you always fall short.

Okay enough preaching!
YOU CANNOT BE HAPPY IN MORGDOM...but you can APPEAR to be HAPPY to bring in more SHEEPLE!

Yes, please. This is not the "I love Jesus" forum, it's the Recovery from Mormonism forum. Your frequent preaching is really annoying -- not to mention hypocritical since anyone who has been involved in Christianity can tell you about hundreds of "Christians" who are exactly what you claim shows Mormonism is wrong.

"You see that is the issue with MORGdom SELF-Centeredness which is MISERY because you always fall short."

Do you truly not see the self-centeredness that causes you to constantly preach to others here? Do you truly believe it is kind, Christian, or laudable to make generalized, self-righteous, self-congratulatory comments? Could you possibly just post about the feelings, people and maybe a little appropriate advice (if you have any)?

The constant sermonizing from you is really irritating to me. I'm guessing I'm not the only one.

Note: From the guidelines right at the top of the first page:

"Please - no preaching!! This is not a forum to convert others to another faith. The focus here is on recovery."

If you are really a Christian then it would behoove you to respect the guidelines of this fine site and restrain your urge to prosletyze.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2011 02:40PM by Rebeckah.

Preaching does get old. And I say this as someone who is extrememly supportive of the Christians on this board.

AIC, you have to remember that not everyone maintains their Christianity when they leave Mormonism. Some do, some go to other faiths, some don't care one way or another, and some are agnostic or atheist. It's one thing to discuss the differences between mainstream Christianity and Mormonism (which I personally love to do,) but quite another to insist that you have the TRUTH and to preach about it (as far as many exmos are concerned, been there, done that, got the t-shirt!)

Everyone here has their own truth, and that should be respected.

Kudos to the atheists on the board who have been remarkably restrained with you. Duly noted. ;-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2011 03:02PM by summer.

Didn't know I disrespcted anyone.

Hmmm my apologies.

I guess my way of recovery is going through all the false doctrines, that is how I do it. Didn't mean to offend.

as for the falling short comment...that was more to do with impossible standards that one can meet not really about MORGdom or Christianity.

Well anyways...So sorry I irritate you...wasn't intentional!

They are the ones that deal with personal experiences you've had or your point of view.

Others ARE preaching. They're the ones that go into excruciating detail about what God thinks, wants, the "truth", etc.

Very few people here are interested in your version of the "truth". However your opinions and experiences are just as valid and worthwhile as those of any other person.

I am not offended but I feel it's only honest to express irritation when I feel it. I assumed that you weren't intentionally being irritating so I thought it would be courteous to let you know, rather than brood about it until I blew up or lashed out. (And I've done both more often than I care to admit.)

So, best wishes, don't stress about it, and thanks for considering my point of view. :)

I really don't preach.

I guess for me the thing is I have been sorely lied to... before I went nuts I just decided to debunk ALL things MORMON with the Bible...so far I see that it is really helpful for me as party of cleansing my brain.

I share that info mainly for people with a TBM spouse so that they can use it to debunk crazy making things MORGdom do.

And yes I know there are nutty X-tians.

I have the same conversations with them...going but this is what it says.

Well MORGdom really does a number on one...can't communicate, can't express, can't do nothing.

It is strange waters to wade through...I am learning and so are you.

Had we been in the same ward this probably would have ended up in a Thomas Marsh Milk scenario! ha ha ha

I was a born again Christian for 25 years, though. The stories I could tell you...

Fact is, many of us don't believe the Bible has anything to do with "truth" much less a deity.

And I always keep MY deals so the only way we'd end up in a Milk Strippings story would be if YOU wanted to be dishonest (which I doubt).

And yes, you certainly seem to be preaching to me on a regular basis. You also seem rather hypocritical and judgemental when you make "whitewashed tomb" comments. Perhaps you should remove the plank from your own eye first?

Just a thought.

White-washed tombs tehehehehehe!

Idk if you have seen some of my strange threads...the plank is gone.

The white-washed tombs of the 15 is what I referring too..the incessant push to be good on the outside.

Okay look...I said I am sorry and just revealed I will not preaching...in order not to I am requesting a list of fav drinks.

It's all good. Thanks for your chastisement.

I hope I'm not "chastising" you. What a revolting thing to do. I was trying to express my feelings. If it came across as chastisement you have my sincere apologies. I'm not so egotistical as to believe I have a right to chastise any adult.

AIC Wrote:
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> I really don't preach.

I cut and pasted the following from a post of yours, above. It is most definitely preaching. It could be coming straight across a church pulpit:

AIC Wrote:
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> MY point?

> 1. WE are the righteousness of GOD in CHRIST. God does not see us as sinners. He us as perfect like HIS Son.
> 2. There is therefore NOW NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ.

> People are not perfected because they believe in Christ. They are righteous and justifited.

> The Spirit then works with you to BRING OUT the peaceable fruits of righteousness...not to leave you and punish you!

--------------------------------------------------------------

Most people here are not interested in being told what the truth is. They have their own ideas about that.

I made a similar error when I first joined the board. It's no big deal. But if you persist, people will start to skip your posts. And I think that would be a shame, because as an exmo, your perspective, memories, and experiences are valuable.

Okee dokee!

It's all good.

This was meant for Rog's wife the believer who is punishing Roger.

Okee dokee I receive your chastisement.

Now go to and sip on something nice. That is our revelation for today :)

AIC Wrote:
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> Okee dokee I receive your chastisement.

> Now go to and sip on something nice. That is our revelation for today :)

I'm enjoying a nice, chilled beer right now. Well okay, it's my second one of the day. Don't tell! ;-)

Probably not the first to make THAT bad joke.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2011 03:51PM by rogertheshrubber.

Okee dokee you do get that I share those verses because your wife is a believer?

That is what opened my eyes to MORGdom futility.

I really just wanted to help.

Idk as a woman in MORGdom...I know how she feels. You just seem to be like the Red Queen IN AIW...running furiously in circles wondering why you haven't moved...while everyone else looks soo happy then comes learned helplessness.

Does she have good friends?

If you ever want to share verses, you can email me. I will let you know if it becomes too much.

I have never acquired the taste for it.
I tried magaritas once and I was like hello where have you been all my life!

AIC Wrote:
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> I tried magaritas once and I was like hello where have you been all my life!

They are quite tasty. I'll have one when out at a bar or restaurant, but last year I discovered the joys of pre-made margarita mix. Yummy!

Last margarita I had was while I was "sittin on the dock of the bay" with some pals, smiling at the passing boat parade. Lovely!