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Posted by: Rory ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 12:42PM

I'm doing an essay and I'm trying to see if there is any real benefit to the anti-polygamy laws if they don't save the people who need them and give corrupt police an excuse to arrest victims of abusive Mormonism. If polygamy was legalized, but people's marriages and children were tracked so there would be more responsibility and crackdown of abuse and neglect, would that be better than the current situation?

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 12:46PM

They're arrested for tax evasion, fraud, child abuse, and other crimes related to polygamy. I think laws against polygamy are good even though they're not used directly. It shows that society doesn't accept the practice and I'm glad of that.

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Posted by: Rory ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 01:01PM

But are Polygamy laws useful? The most horrific abuses go on despite them. The religion makes the relationships abusive close-knit communities that almost function outside the laws. Children aren't legally claimed by their ""fathers."" There are multiple stories of LDS corrupt police and doctors that use the laws against the victims. If it doesn't help and only shows 'society' isn't accepting of polygamy (and in this case, only polygamy relating to religion) isn't it just a rather useless excuse for a rule?

A law with so many exceptions as to only enforce separation from help and the victims are worse than useless. Reminds me of prostitution laws and drug laws that prevent regulation, assistance, and recovery from real crimes...

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 01:33PM

Rory Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But are Polygamy laws useful? The most horrific
> abuses go on despite them.

The law can only prevent multiple "legal" marriages.
It can't prevent people from conducting extra-legal "spiritual marriages," or prevent a man shacking up with 10 women (if he and the women all want to) without any "marriage," etc. So the actual "anti-polygamy" laws do little or nothing to prevent polygamous family groups existing.

Which is why they go after polygamists for tax evasion, fraud, child abuse, and other crimes.

But I think Cheryl is right -- keep the laws on the books even though there are easy ways around them.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 05:36PM

I think they're irrelevant.

There was a time you could get arrested for cohabitation, sodomy, adultry and interracial and gay sex. Over time all these were decriminalized.

If two people are married and one has a relationship with a third party we don't toss them in jail. Some people have open marriages and we don't toss them in jail. No one tossed Hugh Hefner in jail over his "girls next door" show where he openly cohabitated with three women.

Personally I'd like to see the government completely out of the marriage game. Make marriage a personal thing and not one regulated by law with special privileges for those that get permission from the government to have sex.

I'd like to see all individuals treated equally under the law whether they are single, cohabiting, married or widowed.

I strongly agree we need to prosecute child abuse AND forced relationships. Does anyone address that women are taken from one man and given to another with the expectation she has sex and bear him children and she is coerced into it? Is that not institutionalized rape or slavery?

There is a horrid dark side to religious enforced polygamy bending people to the will of a dictator with forced relationships and putting children at risk but if three or more people of their own free will, with no coercion, openly want to form a family, who are we to say no?

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 06:41PM

The reason a society works is that a general sense of decency is usually followed. If that breaks down, there are consequences. I don't want to pay for anyone to have benefits on the job for many different concurrent spouses. I don't want court costs to soar because spouses divorce one wife this month and another one next. Then there are problems with children not being to relate to a mother and father which causes identity problems and custody suits.

Things are bad enough with more than half of marriages failing. This would multiply the problem by who knows what?

I taught school for many years and watched families fall apart and children suffered. I don't care how many spouses choose to cohabit but I don't think they should have children unless they're willing to try to do it with one father and one mother in the family.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2017 06:47AM by Cheryl.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 07:02PM

I understand what the ideal situation would be.

Reality is far different.

My neighbor has three children. Each by a different marriage. Each child spends time with their father and time with her.

The oldest child has two additional siblings that her father had with two different women. Obe he was married to and one he was living with. The poor girl has 4 siblings scattered over four families. This does not include step siblings.

The other two children are in simular situations. Each sister has blood siblings not related to their mother.

I see this repeated over and over. Married men having kids with mistresses. Men unsure if their wife is pregnant with their child or if she was cheating.

No polygamy laws were violated in these situations, even the gentleman that fathered a child with his wife and a child with his girlfriend at the same time was not violating a polygamy law.

The sad fact may be that almost half of couples don't marry and half that do marry divorce, remarry, divorce etc. None violate polygamy laws.

.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 08:03PM

Polygamy laws wouldn't have helped in those cases. But claiming that polygamy is a good way for society to go isn't good either. I know what I'm talking about. Read my book on the main page.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 05:44PM

The problem with poligamy in Utah is not one man with many wives, it's the fact that the state looks the other way to the whole host of other crimes this group committed. It took the state of Texas to step in and put a stop to it. Utah has finally been shamed into cleaning up their mess.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 07:11PM

Short of building a concentration camp for 10,000 practicing polygamists, where do you incarcerate them and who pays for it?

Then how do you take care of thousands of kids while their parents are locked up? What happens when the parents are released?

If you forced each woman to raise her blood children on her own, would she be able to do so without state assisstance?

Then when do you go after the other religions that allow polygamy like the Muslims?

Will they be prosecuted to the same extent? Will you incarcerate them and take away their kids too?

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 07:14PM

Again I whole heartedly think we should prosecute the child abuse, institutionalized rape, fraud and theft that is associated with many of these groups.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 08:04PM

Don't make religious excuses for it.

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Posted by: Jimbo ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 07:25PM

I do not think its is any of the governments business who adult choose to live with , have sex with or any other private adult relationship .Some will say " Oh the children" That would be a great argument if one man one woman households were always great for kids . They are not . With polygamist groups that have child brides and and welfare fraud those should face applicable criminal laws . Leave adults who are law abing the hell alone and prosecute child abusers to the fullest extent of the law no matter the marital relationship.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 10:23PM

We should throw the optimum out just because it doesn't always work? If it's the best chance for children but doesn't always work, why not keep it and improve the odds? Taking a worse option that works less often is a bad choice.

Nothing in society is 100%.

Why? Because there are humans involved and they are not always sensible or reliable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2017 04:26AM by Cheryl.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: November 27, 2017 07:41PM

What's missing is:

Informed consent (young girls, often undereducated and isolated are NOT informed) To meet this, they would have to be legal age (18+) and show some indication of knowledge of life outside their church.

No way would courts be able to test this. I'm a dreamer.

Brainwashing of children in religion is the lifeblood of religion. I wish the imprinting of the parent's religion could have countermeasures to give the child a better perspective to recognize that his or her religion is usually just a circumstance of birth.

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Posted by: EXON46 ( )
Date: November 28, 2017 06:05PM

Some laws push us to do things underground where the most harm could be done.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: November 28, 2017 06:53PM

They are like the mainstream church which keeps temple rituals secret and tries to keep garments secret. They do it because of embarrassment and image.

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