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Posted by: RAG ( )
Date: May 30, 2011 12:12PM

This seems to be the latest 'thought-terminating cliche' of the Saints. How do you respond to it?

More on TTCs here:

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: May 30, 2011 12:27PM

In the book, Lifton outlines the "Eight Criteria for Thought Reform":

1.Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.

2.Mystical Manipulation. The manipulation of experiences that appears spontaneous but is, in fact, planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority, spiritual advancement, or some exceptional talent or insight that sets the leader and/or group apart from humanity, and that allows reinterpretation of historical events, scripture, and other experiences.

3.Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.

4.Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.

5.Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

6.Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clich├ęs, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.

7.Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.

8.Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also.

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: May 30, 2011 12:31PM

Personally, I've found a LOT of hateful Mormons. I think lines like this show more about the speaker than the one they attack.

Another response might be "Has someone told you they "hate" or are you simply deciding their emotions for them?"

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Posted by: RAG ( )
Date: May 30, 2011 12:49PM

It also challenges the idea that reality is understood by emotions, not empirical data--which is the bedrock of LDS thinking.

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Posted by: rogertheshrubber ( )
Date: May 30, 2011 12:51PM

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Posted by: Makurosu ( )
Date: May 30, 2011 12:34PM

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Posted by: Rob ( )
Date: May 30, 2011 02:15PM

Go Biff on them. (Back to the Future)

Grab them in a headlock and wrap on their noggin while asking repeatedly "Hello? Hello McFly...anybody in there?"

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Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: May 30, 2011 02:42PM

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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: May 30, 2011 02:50PM

That implies that they "hate" without reason. If you have a good reason to hate, then maybe they should listen.

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: May 30, 2011 02:53PM

I remember the saying; "If everyone thinks you are wrong then maybe you should consider if they're right."

Granted, this is a bit of an appeal to popularity but it's got some real validity. If you've got a lot of people saying you're getting something wrong, at the very least you should give it a good, thoughtful examination.

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Posted by: topper ( )
Date: May 30, 2011 09:44PM

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Posted by: Gorspel Dacktrin ( )
Date: May 30, 2011 10:07PM

will be the last word and the person they are seeking to silence will be so afraid of being branded as a "hater" that they'll just stop challenging things.

But really all you have to do is keep pressing them to define their terms.

Haters? What exactly do you mean? Hating what exactly? Do you mean people who aren't pleased at having important historical facts hidden from them? Do you mean people who aren't pleased by authority figures who demand obedience and respect, without accountability?

Cult believers are gonna believe no matter what. Just because you don't want to be a cult believer doesn't make you a hater.

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