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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 12:06AM

Jessica M. Goldstein writes ...

"Hey, guys. We’re the fourteen-year-old girls of America. There are a lot of us, but we talk to each other. We’re on a group thread.

We hear that the president — who, for the record, you elected; we are not old enough to vote — has endorsed Roy Moore for Senate. Cool, cool. Roy Moore, the R. Kelly of Alabama.

Some of you don’t believe the allegations, which Moore denies. To which we say: Oooookay. And some of you think that even if they are true, it’s no big thing, because there’s nothing wrong with men in their thirties pursuing relationships with fourteen-year-olds, aka children.

As young girls, we feel like maybe now is a good time to just throw something out there. See if it sticks. A PSA to all grown men on the face of the Earth: We do not want to have sex with you.

We don’t want to kiss you. We don’t want to be touched by you. Not under the bra. Not over the bra. Not anywhere in the vicinity of our bras. Why are you thinking about our bras?

We waited on sending this out because we didn’t think this was, you know, world-shattering news. We thought everyone was on the same page here, re: having sex with children being an absolutely, unequivocally monstrous thing to do, just a disgusting abuse of power against the most vulnerable among us. But apparently you need a refresher. We’d recommend a subscription to Teen Vogue for the articles, but we’re worried about what you’d do with the pictures.

We think you’re struggling with the idea of being too old. Because this isn’t just about us being young — although, again, we are so young. Younger than the iPod. Those advertisements, with the colors and the silhouettes with the white headphone wires? Before our time.

But it’s not just about us. It’s about you, being ancient. You still think you’re so young, don’t you? Yeah… no. Each and every one of you is just wrinkled, withering proof that mortality comes for us all. If you remember where you were on 9/11, you’re too old for us. Did just thinking about that make you feel old? That’s because you’re old. You’re all a thousand to us. Your faces make us sad.

And you know what? Even if we seem interested — even if we SAY we’re into you — here is a cool idea: Don’t listen to us! Who lets an eighth grader just do whatever she wants? We also want to drive cars. We want to drink beer. We want to slap peanut butter on a Pop-Tart and call it a well-balanced breakfast. This Roy Moore guy, 100 percent, is the kind of dad who wouldn’t let his own daughter wear eyeliner, for fuck’s sake. So like, be the adult in the room. Okay? Don’t make us be the grown-ups here. We hate that.

Oh, and as long as we have your attention, we’re going to pass along a message from the fourteen-year-old boys in America: They’re not that into you, either."

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 03:33AM

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 04:19AM


There's a man on my Facebook friends list who is from Alabama and he recently raised the point that it's "normal" in many parts of the world for young girls to be giving favors to older men. I had to share this post for him and others who think like him.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 05:43AM

Mormons need to read this in light of their history and the ongoing attitudes among the hundreds of splinter groups who still believe in old time mormon practices.

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Posted by: ziller ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 07:46AM

ban teenagers ~

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Posted by: East Coast Exmo ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 10:12AM

This. Teenagers are annoying.

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Posted by: Darren Steers ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 08:32AM

14 year old girls might not be that into me. But girls that are just a few months shy of their 15th birthday are totally into me.

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Posted by: Uncle Buck ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 09:09AM

Love it. Not old enough to vote, hands off.

And, yes. Thirty looked and sounded ancient at fourteen.

For any lurkers who may not understand this, teenagers may flirt with older people out of naivete', or in trying to learn how to flirt, what might work within their peer group. They expect it to go nowhere, that the ELDER is a safe testing ground. It doesn't mean that the elders have magically shed years, or should respond sexually, as if the elder is the actual object of desire.

Daughters even flirt with their dads, mom rolls her eyes if dad gets all puffed up. Mom eventually seeks divorce if dad then goes looking for a younger woman, as mom's stomach turns in an irrevocable way. Seeks sole custody based on that gut reaction to the chain of events. Dad is outraged. Would never do that to his own daughter. Mom doesn't want to think it of him, but her gut is screaming at her. Nothing will ever be the same.

Dad's never abused his daughter, mom feels like a crazy, jealous bitch, tries to inhibit her daughter's behavior. Daughter is lost. Parents try to explain that both love her, but she is not supid nor blind, as naivete' falls away.

Mom says don't mess with older men. Dad says age is just a number, with an nineteen-year old on his arm. Even dad questions his own morality, but, it's too good to let go.

Young women are easily impressed. Being impressive to peers requires more effort.

The young woman that dad finds may well be seeking the daddy she never had, or the one who left her to find a substitute. Yeah. Because dad didn't seek and get a different mom, he sought and got a different daughter. It's as plain as the nose on his face, and pretty gross that an elder would poke a substitute daughter as a price she must pay for the council of an elder male. She may have already learned that lesson, at fourteen.

So the stomach churns. No crazy, not really jealousy, but...something else.

Roy Moore. Outside of a divorce court.

With a flirtatious? fourteen year old.

Geezer creep knew his market.

The story is just a story. But, I am from a family that had a dad, a mom, and more than one daughter.

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Posted by: Dorothynli ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 11:25AM

This story rings painfully true.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 10:06AM

I have a slightly different version of being 14 which I don't think I have ever shared completely.

When I was 14, there was a cute 19 year old boy across the street. It wasn't long before we would talk.

I honestly thought it was great that this older guy was so interested in me. I definitely wanted his attention and wanted to kiss. I was completely unaware of what testosterone was about. The first time he started to touch the naughty places I was definitely uncomfortable but he was so persuasive that it was OK. I was fascinated by the thing in his pants (since I had never even seen one).

One time when I was 15 we were parking and a policeman caught us. He pulled boyfriend aside and told him to take me home and to be careful because I was under age. The policeman drove off.

Oddly, my relationship went on with him for 5 years and I never went "all the way" (typical tease). He wanted to marry me and offered to convert but I dumped him when I went to BYU to find a RM.

This raises some questions for me personally. First, I may have been a child but I did nothing to stop his advances. I was very flattered that this gorgeous guy in a muscle car wanted to be with me all the time, and we did have a lot of good times not related to parking. Second, a 5 year difference with a 19 year old guy is very different to me than a 30+ year old.

Still, now I feel uncertain about my own actions. I don't think men are pure predators and girls might be enamored with the attention they are getting.

All these accusations coming out in the news are not the same. Some of the men clearly thought the woman was in the game. Other cases were about power, blackmail and rape.

I want to be fair. I am encouraged that 14 year old girls are now more aware and have the tools to react in advance. In my situation, I was clueless, curious and learning about relationships.

I feel this is a watershed time for women to educate themselves and also set clear expectations going forward. I do not blame victims, no matter how they looked or flirted. Women themselves have a lot of soul-searching to do. Many men are getting their lives destroyed because various women had different levels of expectations 30 years ago.

Talk some sense into me. I could not in fairness accuse my the old boyfriend of anything. I was, however, 14.

Talk to your daughters. It's not just "No means no" anymore. It's far more complicated.

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Posted by: anonculus ( )
Date: December 09, 2017 03:25PM


It's not just "no means no".

Anything an underage person says or does means "no".

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Posted by: carameldreams ( )
Date: December 09, 2017 08:20PM

dagny Wrote:

> I want to be fair. I am encouraged that 14 year
> old girls are now more aware and have the tools to
> react in advance.

HA! What are these 'tools'? What is 'react(ing) in advance'? Is the tool along the lines of Taylor Swift, 'Look What You Made Me Do?' How about Swift testifying that some guy grabbed her 'bare ass'(her words)? Is that tools? Get a great prosecutor and go after some guy, ex post facto, when you smiled for the cameras whilst he allegedly grabbed you and you waited for frickin' ever to say you were oh so injured/offended/traumatized?

How can girls be 'more aware' and remain victims? If they can see it coming ('react in advance') then where is the gap? If alleged perverts can't succeed because these so savvy, worldly (but not bitter, right? Not cynical, right?) 14 year old girls have 'tools', then where is the problem?

No man need be judged when we have these uber tooled girls who 'react in advance'! No siree, they aren't fooled! Except when we say, 'they were only girls! He is so evil for doing that to them!'

Can't have it both ways.

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Posted by: CateS ( )
Date: December 10, 2017 11:41AM

He was a grown man of 19. You were a child of 14. Big difference. I wouldn't classify yours as a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship.

Why would a 19 year old man be attracted to a 14 year old, anyway? It just doesn't make sense.

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Posted by: Honest TBM ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 10:33AM

I know I'm going to get flamed for this by the anti-Mormons. But I got to honestly defend the glorious legacy we have in Mormonism because if I were to try to whitewash or sugarcoat things then I'd be dishonest and you wouldn't be able to call me "Honest TBM" anymore.

In Church we learn that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. So did he have sex with 14-15 year old girls and other teenagers? Well probably so as they were sealed to him as eternal wives and throughout LDS history of plural marriage when a man married plural wives he had sex with them. Thus using Occam's Razor we see that those young women surely got to experience this & feel the same reassurance that the girls in a Middle School feel when a big fat ugly Principal who is in a position of authority tells them "get laid with me right now on the couch in my office or you will be expelled". However Joseph Smith was not some big fat ugly Principal with a couch for bedding Middle School girls. He said he was a true prophet and you can know this for yourself if you will study things up and gain a strong affirmative testimony that all the ancient works he was involved in, i.e. Kinderhook Plates, Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, etc., were true. So it would be wrong for some Principal to do this. But for Joseph Smith we sing "Praise to the Man".

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Posted by: Honest TBM ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 01:51PM

I got to honestly explain the teachings. I do not need to defend anything as thank heavens that the truth stands on its own.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 10:55AM

I was 24 and had a steady, almost serious, relationship with a 16-year-old in the early 1970s. We went together four two years, until she broke up with me because of my drinking. Time, maturity, and the change in social and moral perspectives make a huge difference.

Me: immature, a very heavy drinker/alcoholic, insecure veteran & college student with a sports car and a lot of spending money (thanks, taxpayers!) and a pretty exotic background. Being a "problem" or "bad" boy probably added to my mystery, or appeal, or something.

Her: An extremely smart, precocious, savvy girl who probably felt overshadowed by her older, prettier equally smart sister who married young (1st year college! Not BYU, but a well-ranked Eastern school. The marriage lasted.)

In retrospect, my girlfriend far outclassed boys of her age group. She eventually went to a Seven Sisters School, had one failed marriage, no children, a successful insurance career (executive level). To this day, I'm astonished that her parents let her be out with me on unverified visits to my family for days at a time.

This was the 1970s, and the radicalism of the 60s sexual revolution was penetrating (pun intended, Boner!) Middle America. Sex was okay if it was a "meaningful relationship." (Define "meaningful.") Opposite sex overnights in dorms were being eliminated. A common thought among guys was that "girls needed to be liberated from their puritan morality," i.e. deflowered. Yes, we were that crass.

Dagny, you're spot on. Somethings have to be considered in a sense of absolute morality, but other things do have to be filtered through both the individual circumstances, and the culture surrounding them.

Last: My wife found her letters (ulp!) and read them. She said, "Of all the girls I know about, she probably would have been the best for you--except for me, of course."

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Posted by: nevermojohn ( )
Date: December 09, 2017 01:54PM

This didn’t make sense in the 1970s anymore than it does now. There is something seriously wrong with the 24 year old who is dating a 16 year old. By your own admission, you were in a bad place with your alcoholism. Perhaps women your age were not going to put up with your behavior, but a 16 year old was too young to see the serious pathology on display.

In my experience, in these situations, it’s the adult who is the screwed up person, but the kid is the one who gets screwed.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 11:54AM

Who would condemn 14 year old girls to having to associate only with 14 year old boys?

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Posted by: Jimbo ( )
Date: December 07, 2017 07:35PM

Back in the old day when In HS my 14 year old female friends wanted to go out with jrs and sirs who would be 15-17. This happens mostly at house parties and kegparties .Not so much at Mo released time Seminary at the time I was attending both . I only went to seminary because the teacher was in "The Ward" and he was actually one of the coolest people I have had the honor of being friends with . Rare but true. I don't thinks it good for 14 yo boys and girls should be hanging out much with anyone more than a year or 2 older or younger

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Posted by: QWERTY ( )
Date: December 08, 2017 05:35PM

Maybe they should raise the age of consent in Mexico to more than 12.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: December 08, 2017 08:29PM

I once heard this formula for age differences in dating:

The girl's age should be half the boy's, +7.

So a suitable age for a boy 16 is 8 + 7 = 15.
For a boy 20, 10 + 7 = 17.
For a man 30, 15 + 7 = 22.

After 30, I suppose the math is a bit too skewed.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 09, 2017 02:01PM

No, no, no, I think it's good for life!

Now where is my 43 year old chickiepoo? I hope she has a good paying job!!!

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: December 09, 2017 11:15PM

which means when I'm 8 my girlfriend must be 11. OK then.

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Posted by: readwrite ( )
Date: December 09, 2017 07:42PM

They might [want to have sex] (with whom only they know).

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: December 09, 2017 08:25PM

Oh where, oh where, can Joseph Smith be. I'm sure he's got the answer to this riddle.

Oh wait! I think he's at the temple again with Helen Mar Kimbel.

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