Is it just me or is saying "I KNOW the church is true" contradict having faith? If you "know" then you no longer have "faith," right? If you don't REALLY know, then are you not lying? And God does not like liars (yeah, yeah I know there's also "lying for the Lord," but Mormons today would never admit that). To me there is a BIG difference between saying "I BELIEVE" and "I KNOW."

If you say "I KNOW" then are you not held under a MUCH higher standard and accountability by God? Its like knowing gods and angels exist because you have seen them. If you haven't, then the best you can say is you believe they exist because you haven't seen them but for whatever reasons you still believe in them. What's the point of faith if you actually know?

I feel like it is quite disingenuous for Mormons to proclaim they KNOW when they REALLY don't. They may strongly BELIEVE but if they say they KNOW then that sort of puts them in the same category of someone like a prophet like Moses or Joseph Smith who know because they have real reason to. If Mormons KNOW then they sure aren't living like it. Refraining from alcohol and going to a bunch of (church) meetings doesn't count. If you KNOW then shouldn't you be living life as if Jesus was standing right next to you? If people REALLY knew the church was true wouldn't they consecrate all their time, belongings, and energy to God and the needy like Mother Theresa and the Dalai Lama? Except for a few quirky things in their religion, Mormons don't really behave that much different than the average non-religious person.

Have you ever had a discussion of this seeming contradiction in church before? What was the explanation?

It is written that you believe then you shall know...yeah talking to TBMs can be really frustrating.

It's like we have a template..then once you see it is rubbish, you just seem to turn it off!

Then you start seeing how odd you looked to others now as you interact with TBMs

do the Q guys live their lives as if they Know?

For that matter, HOW does one 'KNOW' anything ? thru the senses, of course:

sight
hearing
smell
touch
taste

Funny: the job of an apostle of Christ is to testify of the reality of the resurrection;
How many of the LDS Q guys do THAT?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2011 04:34PM by guynoirprivateeye.

And furthermore, if you KNOW it, why do you have to keep talking about it? I know the earth is round, but I don't feel the need to state over and over before dozens or hundreds of people, "I KNOW the Earth is round!"

I realize that Mormons saying they know the church is true is cultural, but do they have to say it *quite* so much?

In the BoM, Alma, it says when you know something you no longer need faith.

This always drove me crazy.

It did?

I love the moniker Rogertheshrubber....ha ha ha

Does it mean something?

They know no such thing.

I always wondered why testimony meeting was like a parroting session.

I particularly didn't like seeing the little kids getting up there...sure it was cute...BUT

If they know so much why do we who leave get the "you were my rock spiel? You did so much for my testimony" blah blah blah!

Claiming to know a thing to be true lends a certitude above and beyond mere belief. Mormons seem to be compelled to restate this knowledge every time they give their testimony. As I see it, they do this for two simple reasons: first, to convince an audience (investigator, congregation, family, etc.) of the certitude of their belief and, second, to convince themselves that they really, truly do believe what they say they do. In other words (though they don't mean it this way), they are saying they "know" what they "believe" - not that they know a thing such as the world being round or stone being hard.

Does that make sense? In any case, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

And the difference between knowledge and faith is actually explained in their scripture in quite a straightforward manner so one really does think they should *know* better.

One of the problems is that apostles like Ballard and Packard have told members that they get a testimony by bearing it.
In other words, the more you tell people that you believe it, the more you will believe it -- there is some truth to this, but has more to do with psychology than to do with the holy spirit.
The leaders of the church are messing with the minds of the members.
One of the things I regret is falling for this to some degree. When I left, people were shocked because I had given such a good testimony.
When people cry during their testimonies, I honestly believe that it is the mind's way of letting you know that it doesn't want to say it; it hurts -- why else for all the tears?

What the hell that's supposed to mean has me baffled but I'm sure it sounds nice to the speaker.

The emotional experience of 'knowing', can be a tower of Babel for logic and reason. The truth of science, logic, reason, senses, can be uninteresting for emotions and fantasy. Many christians doesn't know the theory of evolution sufficiently to criticize it in defence of faith but does criticize it sufficiently to manage the defence for their own emotional weelbeing, for insance. Emotions are for feeling good about yourself, including your faith if that is a part of what you identify yourself with, Faith doesn't necessarily allow full use of reason, logic, nonsensable science, self-consciousness, honesty, openness, flexibility in overarching ethics, full social conscience forming alone, unconditional use of empathetic understandings and sympathies, etc.

They don't really know.

And in the back of their minds there is doubt.

If they really knew it they would never make the occasional sin.

If TBM men really KNEW that the Church was true and that God was real, none of them would ever beat off in the shower because they would know that in fact, god was watching their every move, even in the bathroom, and that the risk of masturbating would throw their entire eternal reward out the window.

The fact is, is that they all beat off on a fairly regular basis.

They don't really know, they THINK they know.

And I would even venture to say that they don't even really completely BELIEVE either.

They doubt it, but doubting freaks them out and so they suppress the doubt.

It's the same with Harold Camping and all his followers. If you were to propose that they duct tape themselves to a chair and put a shotgun in front of their face timed to go off after October 21st if the rapture does not happen, none of them would agree to that. Why? Because none of them REALLY believe. They want to believe, and they think they do, but when it really comes down to it, they simply don't.

Ask any TBM if they were bleeding to death and they had to choose between life-saving blood or a priesthood blessing. They would choose the blood.

They just pretend to know it's true because it is perceived as being virtuous.