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Posted by: The Riddler ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 01:30AM

What do you think?

This is a question of character. Was JSJr honest? Or a liar? Did he tell a lot of stories? Or just factual information?

What do you think?

Give below your opinion and supporting evidence to support your position.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 01:38AM

Opinions don’t matter. All of this is answered at CESletter.org.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 02:58AM

There isn't much debate about THAT question.

You indirectly touch, however, on a topic that is noteworthy. Hitler wrote of "the big lie." He said that the bigger the lie, the more likely people are to believe it because, well, who would make that shit up?

We know that JS prevaricated all the time. He told variations of his BoM stories for years in front of the family hearth; his mother wrote of this in her autobiography. He tried stories, honed them, tried them again. He lied to the neighbors, his future father-in-law, people who believed in scrying. His dishonesty was obvious, constant, and evidently pathological.

But when he turned his attention to big lies, he persuaded a lot of people to believe him. This is not an unusual phenomenon; we see it all the time. Bernie Maddow, religious leaders, certain political leaders: a narcissist's ability to utter enormous lies with complete confidence is for many people convincing. The evidence against the statements can mount, but as long as the charismatic leader retains his self-confidence he'll maintain much of his following.

So my answer to the question is Joseph Smith was both incredible and, when he told big enough lies with enough confidence, paradoxically credible. Belief, conviction, trust are not solely objective phenomena: they are equally subjective and emotional. Smith's career thus attests to a pattern that we see clearly enough in contemporary society.

The blatant lie is sometimes more persuasive than the mundane.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 09:35AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...a pattern that we see clearly enough in contemporary
> society.
>
> The blatant lie is sometimes more persuasive than
> the mundane.

Last year's presidential race comes to mind as an example in contemporary society...:)

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 11:44AM

Oh, no.

Now this thread is going to become another covfefe.

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Posted by: bobofitz ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 09:32AM

Twice you have asked “ What do you think?” And you have posed 5 separate questions for us to contemplate and give you our “opinion” on. Then you want evidence. I feel like you are here trying to pick a fight. If you have something to say, say it. You know the feelings of those who frequent this board, and, in the past, they have provided a lot of evidence. Read it. It’s all on archive.

In your post you have attempted to start a controversy. Go ahead, start by telling us what you think. I won’t even give you the burden of proof by asking for evidence, although outrageous claims require it. You are asking for evidence to disprove an outrageous claim. It’s not our responsibility to do so. So, what do you think?

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Posted by: Shinehah ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 10:26AM

Joseph Smith credible? Take the first vision story as one example:
Imagine a defense attorney in front of a jury, "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I know my client has told nine different versions of the incident, but his latest version is just amazing so you have no choice except to believe him."

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 10:35AM

He was IN-credible.

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Posted by: gettinreal ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 11:09AM

This is a stupid question to post on an EX MOROMON forum.
What do you THINK the answer is gonna be??
NO, he was NOT credible. No evidence required.

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Posted by: moremany ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 11:34AM

"Give below your opinion and supporting evidence to support your position."

EVIDENCE? What do you think we are, detectives?

An opinion is one thing, and a position, another.

Ask yourself these questions. Fast! Play about it.

If the guy was credible, you wouldn't be here.

M@t

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 12:20PM

I've put this up before but will do so again:

This is the infamous "Greek Psalter Incident" as described in "Three Days At Nauvoo" (1842) by the Rev. Henry Caswall.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/36486/36486-h/36486-h.htm

The following morning (Tuesday, April 19th), a Mormon arrived with his boat and ferried me over to Nauvoo. A Mormon doctor accompanied me. He had obtained, I was told, a regular diploma from a medical school as a physician; but since the Mormons generally prefer miraculous aid to medicine, it is probable that his practice is somewhat limited. He argued with me as we were on the passage, and evinced a tolerable share of intelligence and acuteness. The success of Mormonism in England was a subject of great rejoicing to him. I observed, that I had reason to believe that the conquests of Mormonism in Britain had been principally among the illiterate and uneducated. This, he partially admitted; but he maintained that God had always chosen the poor, for they were rich in faith. I replied, that the class of persons to whom he referred, abounded in wrong faith no less than in right faith; and that among the lower class of persons in England, the wildest delusions, of the most contradictory character, had, from time to time, been readily propagated. I further remarked, that the same class of people who believed in Joanna Southcote, might easily be persuaded to credit the divine mission of Joseph Smith. I begged him to inform me whether the Mormons believed in the Trinity. "Yes," he replied; "we believe that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; that makes three at least who are God, and no doubt there are a great many more." He went on to state, that the Mormons believe that departed saints become a portion of the Deity, and may be properly denominated "Gods."

On landing at Nauvoo, I proceeded with the Doctor along the street which I mentioned before as bordering on the strand. As I advanced with my book in my hand, numerous Mormons came forth from their dwellings, begging to be allowed to see its mysterious pages; and by the time I reached the prophet's house, they amounted to a perfect crowd. I met Joseph Smith at a short distance from his dwelling, and was regularly introduced to him. I had the honour of an interview with him who is a prophet, a seer, a merchant, a "revelator," a president, an elder, an editor, and the general of the "Nauvoo legion." He is a coarse, plebeian person in aspect, and his countenance exhibits a curious mixture of the knave and the clown. His hands are large and fat, and on one of his fingers he wears a massive gold ring, upon which I saw an inscription. His dress was of coarse country manufacture, and his white hat was enveloped by a piece of black crape as a sign of mourning for his deceased brother, Don Carlos Smith, the late editor of the "Times and Seasons." His age is about thirty-five. I had not an opportunity of observing his eyes, as he appears deficient in that open, straightforward look which characterizes an honest man. He led the way to his house, accompanied by a host of elders, bishops, preachers, and common Mormons. On entering the house, chairs were provided for the prophet and myself, while the curious and gaping crowd remained standing. I handed the book to the prophet, and begged him to explain its contents. He asked me if I had any idea of its meaning. I replied, that I believed it to be a Greek Psalter; but that I should like to hear his opinion. "No," he said; "it ain't Greek at all; except, perhaps, a few words. What ain't Greek, is Egyptian; and what ain't Egyptian, is Greek. This book is very valuable. It is a dictionary of Egyptian Hieroglyphics." Pointing to the capital letters at the commencement of each verse, he said: "Them figures is Egyptian hieroglyphics; and them which follows, is the interpretation of the hieroglyphics, written in the reformed Egyptian. Them characters is like the letters that was engraved on the golden plates." Upon this, the Mormons around began to congratulate me on the information I was receiving. "There," they said; "we told you so—we told you that our prophet would give you satisfaction. None but our prophet can explain these mysteries." The prophet now turned to me, and said, "this book ain't of no use to you, you don't understand it." "Oh yes," I replied; "it is of some use; for if I were in want of money, I could sell it, and obtain, perhaps, enough to live on for a whole year." "But what will you take for it?" said the prophet and his elders. "My price," I replied, "is higher than you would be willing to give." "What price is that?" they eagerly demanded. I replied, "I will not tell you what price I would take; but if you were to offer me this moment nine hundred dollars in gold for it, you should not have it." They then repeated their request that I should lend it to them until the prophet should have time to translate it, and promised me the most ample security; but I declined all their proposals. I placed the book in several envelopes, and as I deliberately tied knot after knot, the countenances of many among them gradually sunk into an expression of great despondency. Having exhibited the book to the prophet, I requested him in return to shew me his papyrus; and to give me his own explanation, which I had hitherto received only at second hand. He proceeded with me to his office, accompanied by the multitude. He produced the glass frames which I had seen on the previous day; but he did not appear very forward to explain the figures. I pointed to a particular hieroglyphic, and requested him to expound its meaning. No answer being returned, I looked up, and behold! the prophet had disappeared. The Mormons told me that he had just stepped out, and would probably soon return. I waited some time, but in vain: and at length descended to the street in front of the store. Here I heard the noise of wheels, and presently I saw the prophet in his waggon, flourishing his whip and driving away as fast as two fine horses could draw him. As he disappeared from view, enveloped in a cloud of dust, I felt that I had turned over another page in the great book of human nature.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 12:35PM

Oh please, Mary! Everybody here knows Joseph Smith inside and out and his history and the facts answer the question. Only a brainwashed, indoctrinated Mormon wouldn't be able to see Joseph for what he was.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 12:37PM

What's the next question. Is the Sky Blue sometimes? Please give your opinion and supporting evidence for your conclusion.

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Posted by: mikemitchell ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 12:38PM

I think that words appearing on a rock inside a hat is bullshit and that about sums up Joseph Smith's credibility.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 01:20PM

Joseph Smith was INcredible. You try sending men on missions so you can fuck their wives.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 04:18PM

Was there ever a time that JS followed the law or told the truth?

<crickets>

That's what I thought.

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Posted by: ThW5 ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 04:29PM

"Was JSJr honest?"

No, he was a professional criminal.

"Or a liar?"

Not a good liar though, his lies are so Obvious, and they aren't even entertaining


"Did he tell a lot of stories?"

Not as much as bull.


"Or just factual information?"

I doubt he ever did, when he used more than 10 words.

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Posted by: moremany ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 07:08PM

Who?

M@t

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: February 06, 2018 07:21PM

I suspect Joseph had a lot of charisma like David Koresh and could make people believe the unbelievable with a twinkle of the eye. Ironically that would make Joseph an oxymoronous "credible liar." It is a gift to project such surety that even your craziest ideas seem not only sound, but desirable to your followers.

Credible liars though, often end up in jail room shoot outs or burning buildings in the end for some reason. There seems to be a sell-by date to their charms.

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Posted by: Atari ( )
Date: February 07, 2018 09:35AM

The Book of Mormon proves he was a liar and con-man. It is a book with zero evidence.

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Posted by: Heretic 2 ( )
Date: February 08, 2018 02:13AM

Angels are not known to science. Books made of plates of gold are not known to archaeologists. To anyone who had not been brainwashed as a child into being religious, Joseph Smith's claims would not be credible.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: February 08, 2018 10:10AM

The most obvious and "proven" examples of JS flat-out lying are his denials of polygamy.

Even TSCC admits he lied about it (though they make excuses for it). Numerous times.

Just those incidents destroy any and all "credibility." It's so odd, though, that TBMs can say, "Well, yes, he wasn't honest about polygamy -- be he was about everything else!"

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: February 08, 2018 10:36AM

IMO, he was as credible as a Kirtland Safety Society $3.00 bank note.

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Posted by: moremany ( )
Date: February 09, 2018 12:09AM

Qu33r as a 3 dollar bill

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Posted by: moremany ( )
Date: February 09, 2018 12:13AM

It figures you wouldn't respond.

Even you know he wasn't or perhaps you would have.

You answered your own question.

That was easy.

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