"Once again we find ourselves as a nation and as communities faced with a tragic loss of life and incomprehensible sorrow following the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Florida. Among the many injured or killed were two members of our faith. To all of the victims and their loved ones, we extend our love. These are hours filled with grief, emptiness and a terrible sense of loss. We unite our prayers with millions of others who are mourning and praying for them."

So I'm sure that'll solve Americas school shooting problem. I named my cats Thoughts and Prayers because they're fucking worthless.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2018 10:12AM by koriwhore.

How about uniting your votes with millions of others who want sensible gun legislation, mormons?

Instead of worthless prayers to an imaginary Elohim on Kolob?

The shooter was 19 and not clincally diagnosed with mental health issues.

So nothing to return on a background check.

A semi-automatic rifle can be purchased by anyone that is 18 years old. check

No Criminal records among other things. However he was expelled from schools. Not a criminal act. I suppose no Juvi record. Which might be sealed when he turned 18.


He enjoyed guns and has had the rifle for awhile. It wasn't recent purchase.

So, what gun legislation would of prevented this tragedy?


Increase the age to buy a gun?

Our boys in the military can sign up at 18 and go to war. On base they can't even have a whiskey but they can shoot a "badguy" in the head, chest, leg, throw grenades, drop 10K bombs, blast shells from tanks and artillery guns...etc.

Phazer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, what gun legislation would of prevented this
> tragedy?

Eliminating them.

> Increase the age to buy a gun?

No, eliminate them. All of them.

Yes, yes, I know -- "the 2nd Amendment."

First, I don't agree that it means anyone can have any gun any time -- it's clearly about a "well-regulated militia."

Second, if the 2nd Amendment is an impediment to eliminating guns, then let's pass a new Amendment -- eliminating guns.

You're free to disagree. But that's what I want.

lectlaw.com/files/gun01.ht*

Feel free to read up on the origins of our govt before continuing to debate things you know nothing about.

gettinreal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> lectlaw.com/files/gun01.ht*
>
> Feel free to read up on the origins of our govt
> before continuing to debate things you know
> nothing about.

Don't feel free to continue pretending people who don't agree with you know nothing about the subject.

As I stated in my post, if the current 2nd Amendment prevents us eliminating all guns, then we should pass a new amendment nullifying it. I *don't care* what the original intention was (though I don't agree it was what that website claims). I'm for eliminating all guns.

Try taking guns away from law abiding US citizens and you will have an American insurgency. Regardless if you revoke the Second Amendment or not.

Too many folks feel that the second amendment is there to protect citizens from a tyrannical government. Confiscating guns on a large scale would be tyranny, hence the need for the arms.

Another vote in favor of repealing the 2nd Amendment.

I thought about that and then I remembered. My father was a farmer. He saved his dog from being killed by an owl with a gun. He shot the owl that came after me with a gun. He killed the skunks that got under his parents' house with a gun.

There are reasons to have guns. My dad kept them at the farm and used them for what he needed them for. How about a bunch of stray dogs that became a pack and were killing our sheep? What should he do?

No guns is not even logical. My dad and brothers have never even killed a deer and they have guns and are responsible.

Many other countries do not allow such powerful weapons into the hands of the citizenry.

In my country guns are legal and many farmers and hunters have them. However it is almost impossible for anybody, particularly a depressed angry young loner, to get hold of an automatic rifle. Consequently - no mass shootings.

Also no school shootings at all. None. But that may be due to some cultural differences between our countries as well.

People are starting to use cars as offensive weapons, particularly unsophisticated terrorists, but also disturbed loners.

We are not safe from random violence, but at least our kids do not have to pass through metal detectors to get into school, and be trained about avoiding gunmen. I cannot imagine how stressful it must be for school children growing up and living in that environment. Those kids knew that the shooter was disturbed and had guns - but nothing could be done about him until it was too late.

They didn't bother to intercede as they could have done.

Sarcasm

Tell Congress to pass a law to make mass shootings illegal.

Phazer, I like your sarcasm.

How about illegal to the extent that there is to be no trial. No speedy execution, either, but some form of humane "torture" such as spending a lifetime in isolated maximum lockdown.

Something needs to put fear in the hearts of these mass murderers. (Short of cutting off a hand, or other atrocities that some countries resort to--countries with very low crime rates, I might add.)

Perhaps the same should apply to whoever sells the gun to the murderer. Maybe the parents should be incarcerated--not for bad parenting, but for knowing their kid was a psycho and had automatic weapons. This might encourage parents to be more in control.

Our bishop (who hit on me when I was divorced and single and he was married) and his whole family were crazy. They had guns and ammo in their house. Their daughter came to high school with a loaded gun, and threatened suicide. Somehow, the bishop (a powerful attorney) got the school to keep things quiet, and the girl was put into the psych ward on suicide watch for two weeks. The family lied about where she was. She returned to school, like nothing had happened.

Perhaps the school officials who KNEW of this--and the Florida officials who knew they were accepting a student who had been expelled and who had brought a gun to school before--should be put in jail, too. I'm not talking about paying a fine, bad publicity, losing their job (which they should), but HARD JAIL TIME.

No-fault life sentence, when caught in the act.

No mention in the press or anywhere as to "motive". Motive is irrelevant to dead people.

No "psychological evaluations". Murder is a crazy act. How could someone who committed a crazy act, be not-crazy? Crazy or not, this person killed people.

No publicity at all for the murderer.

Punishments should be murder-times-seventeen, or however many people the killer murdered.

I don't consider RfM to be "worthless" because I feel solace and strength if others on this board express good wishes to me. I think it's mean to degrade personal good wishes. Also, I don't see anything wrong with a religious person telling someone of like mind that they are praying for them.

Giving personal aid and money might be more substantial, but that isn't always possible.

Gun laws are a different matter that shouldn't shame people into avoiding expressions of grief and support.

Expressing thoughts of support does help. Sometimes it saves lives.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2018 12:16PM by Cheryl.

Good words, Cheryl. I understand the sentiment of many that following negative experiences with religion and/or a loss of belief "prayers are worthless". RfM posters often ask after a tragedy (national or personal) why people say "my/our thoughts and prayers are with you". The answer that satisfies me is that for the most part it's a way of expressing support and fellow feeling to those affected by such tragedy. It's hard to know what else to say. But I think it helps for people to feel they are not alone, that others know and care about what has happened to them.

Do they know/feel that people up here in Canada hear about their great tragedy and grievous loss and care about them, even though we don't know them and will never meet them? Likely not, but we can reach out with the words of comfort that we can summon up. No words can help to lessen the initial suffering. But to know that people care may be of some comfort. Even when we know a person who has suffered a great loss it is hard to know what to say. Obviously, there are no words to erase the enormous overwhelming painful grief. But any words or gestures or actions that say "I care" don't often go amiss even if our expressions sometimes miss the mark.

It's hard on we bystanders to observe and imagine and deal with the grief of others. We know as outsiders, and especially far away, that we can't do much, if anything, that is of any concrete help or consolation. But we can say we know, we care, we cry too for the pain of fellow humans.

So I tend to give people a pass with the words they use. It's more a case of them just trying to acknowledge that people are in crisis and others care.

I think when a person of religious faith says they are praying for you it is their sincere way of saying "I know and I care about your loss" (although it can sound/be rote too, if it's said as an automatic response rather than a heartfelt one). I know too that for many RfMers they are allergic to the phrase "praying for you", with good reason from their own bad experiences. I don't fault them for that.

I hear some politicians and others using the phrase "our thoughts are with you" (leaving out "prayers") which is a good alternative, imho, to be more inclusive (of those who are not religious). I think that even as Christians that is a good alternative expression of compassion.

However, Cheryl makes a good point that when it's people of faith addressing others of faith, or especially those of their own beliefs, mentioning "prayers" is not out of line. Again, it is a basic way of saying we care. And I believe that even (most) Mormons do care and are sincere in instances like this. I just hope that everyone who says they are thinking and praying for others actually does it. Otherwise, yeah, it's empty.

Well said, Nightingale.

"Thoughts and Prayers" effects the ones hearing people talk about the expression of thoughts and prayers, more than the intended recipients of the actual thoughts and prayers.

Who's to say that "positive energy" doesn't have an effect.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't consider RfM to be "worthless" because I
> feel solace and strength if others on this board
> express good wishes to me. I think it's mean to
> degrade personal good wishes. Also, I don't see
> anything wrong with a religious person telling
> someone of like mind that they are praying for
> them.
>
> Giving personal aid and money might be more
> substantial, but that isn't always possible.
>
> Gun laws are a different matter that shouldn't
> shame people into avoiding expressions of grief
> and support.
>
> Expressing thoughts of support does help.
> Sometimes it saves lives.
More often than not it takes lives, like now, when it has become a cliche response to mass murder, when it is a substitute for real change that results in fewer kids dying on a regular basis.

Would this statement have been made if none of the victims were LDS?

koriwhore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I named my cats Thoughts and Prayers
> because they're fucking worthless.

Small threadjack...

If you are serious, and you think your cats (or ANY animals you are responsible for) are "fucking worthless," you should not have companion animals...

...and I don't care if you consciously intended this as humor, because the fact you wrote it at all reflects your inner truth.

Agreed

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> koriwhore Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I named my cats Thoughts and Prayers
> > because they're fucking worthless.
>
> Small threadjack...
>
> If you are serious, and you think your cats (or
> ANY animals you are responsible for) are "fucking
> worthless," you should not have companion
> animals...
>
> ...and I don't care if you consciously intended
> this as humor, because the fact you wrote it at
> all reflects your inner truth.

Its a common internet meme.
I thought people here were more internet savy and might have a sense of humor. My bad.

I don't own a cat but I am an animal lover and my best friends are my 2 dogs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2018 03:21PM by koriwhore.

our two cats have been named Ricky and Bucket. Bucket was a contraction of Love Bucket which was selected because of the feline's penchant for affection as a kitten which he still has. Ricky is sometimes referred to as "helper kitty" because of his penchant to be right in the middle of whatever task is being performed, especially kitchen tasks. Lots of willingness to assist there. Unfortunately the thing he does best is A. Getting in the way B. Knocking things off of the counter onto the floor. He also loves to help make the bed by holding down the sheets during the process...... even when they do not need to be held down. I might have said that they are both basically worthless,mostly because, Thankfully, we do not have any mice around at all. However, Ricky is really good at finding leaks in air mattresses.

I dont agree with Mormons on their religion but they do get it right when it comes to gun control. This is why people like Mitt Romney get elected. People see that gun control failed to reduce violence in places like Mexico, California, Baltimore, Chicago, and DC. The gun laws disarm the wrong people. People try to make silly arguments like the writers of the second amendment couldnt have known that semiautomatics would be invented but they already had semiautomatic revolvers that could shoot 6 rounds in 6 seconds. Just watch a western movie for goodness sakes if you dont believe me.

Also for some reason we have armed guards at grocery and book stores in this country but we dont have armed guards at our schools. Why? How about we try some real common sense gun control by putting armed guards who know how to control a gun at each public school so this doesnt happen anymore.

"Semi-automatic revolvers"--first, there is no such thing: they're called "double-action revolvers." Each pull of the trigger rotates the cylinder and cocks the hammer.

Second: the double-action revolver was invented in the mid-19th century in Europe and didn't become common in the US until the end of that century. The single-action indexed revolver was invented by Samuel Colt in 1835. The US Constitutional Convention took place in 1787. Manual revolvers, with chambers that had to be individually loaded with a ball and shot and rotated carefully by hand to align the chamber with the barrel, were first devised in the 16th century but were quite rare. The Revolution was fought with single-shot pistols and rifles.

Third, Westerns are not documentaries.

The shooter says he had demonic voices in his head instructing him. I think Mormons are going to latch onto this and theorize that the demons were targeting those girls because they were Mormons. Real last days stuff. It would fit perfectly into their persecution complex.

If we really want to stop school shootings we need to look at the facts about what causes them.

A 10 year long study of the causes of the Columbine shooting is published in the book "Columbine" by Dave Cullen.

A book that does a thorough job of examining the evidence and the root causes of violence including brain studies is "Anatomy of Violence" by Adrian Raine. It's an in-depth scientific presentation.

Only when we understand the root causes can we come up with a solution that'll actually work.

"And tonight we're goin' out shootin' critters."

Of course, if we want to get into suffering, who was suffering first? Why did the community just let it go? They saw that this kid needed help. He had nobody and no way to cope. They assumed he would get it worked out. Now if only assumptions could bring back the dead.

Just wondering if every religion puts out a press release with the number of victims that happen to be members of their religion?

Yes, that's what I'm wondering too. Did any other religion/church make a statement identifying how many of the victims belonged to their church?

I've also noticed that many of the active LDS I work with tend to frame all world events in the context of whether it's affected any church members. Most of the LDS I work with didn't even mention the FL shooting at all and the few that did were focused solely on the LDS victims. They didn't seem to care about the event as a whole or the victims who weren't LDS.

Thinking of Jared Padgett in Oregon a couple years ago.

Mormons are as entitled to mourn their losses as anyone. I mourn with all seventeen families, and families everywhere. Why wouldn't you expect them to have a statement for the victims? It hit home again. Mass shootings, like terrorism, affects everyone. Isn't that something we can agree on?