For exMo husbands: was/is your wife a typical Mormon woman? Calm, stable, duty bound, smiling sweetly, daughter of Christ, selfless, unconditionally loving and kind?

exMo wives: were you this way?

How does a woman do this, day in, day out?

I struggle to be this in my marriage. I see all these women in Relief Society and it seems effortless for them to be selfless, loving, HAPPY spouses (and mothers, grandmothers, for those who have children). They are content no matter what. They give to their husbands, children, elderly parents, and of course, fulfill their callings at church. They speak of the Prophets (current and past) in ways that comes across as so fulfilled and rejoicing in the wonderful truth of the church. They teach, serve, always, always serving, right? I could list the examples but you know what I am talking about.

Always smiling. Always reaching out to others. Moved to tears at the podium or while teaching. Cooking, serving, teaching, loving, happy, happy, happy. Laughing at the right times. Crying at the right times. Praying, praying, praying. Worthy. Always worthy.

Never rebelling. Never opinionated. Never argumentative. Never sour. Never unhappy. Never dragging themselves to church. Never extra. Never too much happiness or loud outbursts or passionate or any way that would upset the apple cart. Never craving material showiness. Never embarrassing their husbands. Never UNSATISFIED. Never NEGATIVE.

Exmo husbands: did/do you love this in your Mormon wife? Did you feel you had the best relationship and everything was, 'easy'? Were you glad you had/have such a selfless, loving, SWEET, DEVOTED wife? Did/do you love how happy and fulfilled she was/is spiritually? How much she loved/loves the Prophet and BOM? Etc.?

Any of those qualities in either spouse are great.

HOWEVER

If there's NEVER any variation or nuance then it's downright creepy!

You've heard of the 'uncanny valley'? The idea that the closer machines or visuals approach mimicking humanity, the more repulsed we are due to instinctual multi-sensory triggers that warn us if something is not quite human...?

Welcome to the behavioral uncanny valley!

If your spouse is CONSTANTLY in one mode or mood then that's a red flag to me that there's something going on deep inside that this individual is desperately trying to cover up.

Granted, there are some people (like my sister-in-law) that are just a little more on the serene side; even when they're pissed off - but that's different.

I've been watching "The Man in the High Castle" and it portrays a world where Nazi Germany won WWII and overlaid III Reich culture over US culture...

The women portrayed in the 'American Reich' were in constant Relief Society mode and they were all about ready to crack for one reason or another.

In short, if a relationship is too 'easy', then it's not quite human. I guess I'm the kind of guy that needs some real grit now and then.

enigma Wrote:
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>
> If your spouse is CONSTANTLY in one mode or mood
> then that's a red flag to me that there's
> something going on deep inside that this
> individual is desperately trying to cover up.

But wouldn't I have seen this by now in these women?

The men don't seem to struggle as much. But it seems the church is more designed to affirm them or I dunno. Can't explain it. Maybe they have more freedom despite the same pressures to be worthy, lead family, etc.?

I see NO struggle in these women. Struggle in the human is for the movies and music. Or literature. That's where the 'hero's journey' is glamorized for what the hero/heroine opposes (in society, family of origin, school, whatever) and 'takes on their life', becomes the SUPERHERO and everyone swoons.

I do not see any unhappiness in these women, week in, week out. They show up for all the activities at church just as happy as when we were all together for RS. They seem to love their callings in addition to wifely duties and family responsibilities.

How to get to that place emotionally? That's what I hope to know.

I think slskipper made a good point about self-selection. If these folks don't dare to think outside the confines of their Mormon bubble, then they may very well be happy in their ignorance. If they never bother to contemplate anything outside their belief circle then I suppose it's entirely possible.

I just know from my own experience that NO ONE is without struggle. If this group that you're observing is in a more economically well-to-do area then, yes, it might appear nearly all the time that everything is just #$@%'ing wonderful.

I guarantee you there are cracks in that porcelain somewhere.

enigma Wrote:
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> I just know from my own experience that NO ONE is
> without struggle.

I hear that. I suppose there is 'sanctioned struggle' in what I see. You know. They go through illnesses in their kids, or whatever and they come through because they listened to the Prophet, got the Priestholder blessing. All related back to the system of 'faith'.

Women will cry over their kids and grandkids who have lost their testimony and are inactive. We pray for those kids. So that is, 'struggle', I guess.

They are confident they have the truth. The one true church. They do everything right and good. They are the ultimate helpmate.

IMO: you are looking at selection bias, if I may invent a term. Mormonism selects for this type of individual, both male and female. The poor folks who don't fit this mold- those who question, those who want something more out of life, or those who se life experiences make them rebel against authority structures- are pushed out and left on their own. In fact the LDS church has at best a 30% activity rate, meaning that 70% of people who grew up Mormon have no place in the organization. Most people on this site are in that group.

The women in your sample group also likely are comfortable financially. They don't have to work outside the home. They have the luxury to spend their days scrapbooking and Pampered Cheffing and making treats for each other. They have nothing to complain about. Who wouldn't be happy doing that? I would be ecstatic if I could do that, and I'm a guy!

slskipper Wrote:
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> IMO: you are looking at selection bias, if I may
> invent a term. Mormonism selects for this type of
> individual, both male and female. The poor folks
> who don't fit this mold- those who question, those
> who want something more out of life, or those who
> se life experiences make them rebel against
> authority structures- are pushed out and left on
> their own. In fact the LDS church has at best a
> 30% activity rate, meaning that 70% of people who
> grew up Mormon have no place in the organization.
> Most people on this site are in that group.

Understood and great point. But what if I want/need to be that kind of individual?

Here's the thing: these women get whatever they want. Who can argue with that success? They do not get hardship for their placid personalities. They get material comfort, love from their spouse and families, connection to the spiritual path they have chosen, respect from community, etc.

Yes, this is true for a lot of religions. Not just mormonism. But mormonism is a pretty good example of it.

Being required to act a certain way and follow a set of rules day in and day out is unsustainable UNLESS you allow your ego to take 2nd place. The women who are able to keep this up day after day, week after week, year after year, fall into two categories:

1. The fakers - it will end badly for them. They're drugged all the time on anti-depressants and generally exhausted. They will break.

2. The makers - despite how dumb mormonism is, these people are actually becoming pretty awesome human beings because they're learning to put their egos and their own-self interests on the back burners.

It's easy for us to talk trash about joseph smith and brigham young and the book of mormon and the pearl of great price and all that, but what we generally fail to realize is that for those true believing mormons, the ones who really believe and follow it to the T, without ego, their lives are pretty great.

Their kids don't shoot up schools, they get their eagle scout, have less premarital sex, get good jobs, have nice lives.

quidprostatusquo Wrote:
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> Their kids don't shoot up schools, they get their
> eagle scout, have less premarital sex, get good
> jobs, have nice lives.
True, if they can be controlled. What I sometimes see (as I mentioned) are women crying and asking for prayer about their kids because they aren't following the Prophet.

But you make great points, regardless.

A bit off topic, but this is the respect society has for the church. Especially old-school types who hate casual church and automatically esteem young men in white shirts. 'Showing respect', the old-timers believe.

Doesn't really matter what is on the inside when society is judging based on appearances and social welfare contributions.

quidprostatusquo Wrote:
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> Their kids don't shoot up schools, they get their
> eagle scout, have less premarital sex, get good
> jobs, have nice lives.

Sorry to quote the same, but isn't this the Rob Porter track? And it seems there are more like him?

I am already invalidating my own OP.

I just want to be like these women and other than anesthetizing myself, do not know if I can do it.

I would think a husband, any husband, frankly, would be thrilled with this kind of Mormon wife. However she got there, Mo or no, he would feel he hit the jackpot. No conflict, no problems, just happiness.

carameldreams Wrote:
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> I just want to be like these women and other than
> anesthetizing myself, do not know if I can do it.

Why would you want to be like them?
They're fakes.
They struggle like anyone else. They "doubt" like anyone else. They have tragedies and disappointments like anyone else.
They just refuse to share them. They put on a fake "happy face" to show the world, rather than be honest or be themselves.
Their external face is robotic and inhuman. And entirely fake.

> I would think a husband, any husband, frankly,
> would be thrilled with this kind of Mormon wife.

Not THIS husband(me).
I like honest, real women. Like my wife of 25 years.
When she's suffering, she tells me -- and I help comfort her.
When she's angry (which doesn't happen often, but does happen), she lets me know so that I can help her deal with it, or make changes in what I do if it was me that made her angry. That's real and honest, and that kind of open emotional sharing cements the bond between us. A real, honest bond -- not a fake one.

> However she got there, Mo or no, he would feel he
> hit the jackpot. No conflict, no problems, just
> happiness.

Sorry, that's not "happiness." It's fakery.
I'll pass.
And I imagine most honest men would do the same.

Brother Dave Checketts London Mission Pres and his lovely stepford wife Deb, whose grown adult son was just arrested for his 4th DUI doing 120 mph on I-15 at 72nd south.

"Perfect People" don't really have perfect lives.

To add: I also hear from Mormon women that their husbands are not living right. They 'struggle' over that.

If the husband isn't doing everything expected, or even has stopped attending, that is a grief for the Mormon wife. Lots of sorrow and asking for prayer about that, too. So, not 'HAPPY' all the time, in that case.

I guess, but I tended to stay to myself at church, while my husband was outgoing. OH, WAIT! One of our big arguments was that I refused to go to bishopric temple nights. I just found out recently they were once a month. I NEVER went. My husband wasn't worthy, but went anyway and made up excuses for me. I wish he would have just said she didn't want to come. I refused to go to interviews. He was ex. sec. and the bishop wanted to talk to wives quite often in the bishopric. I went inactive while he was ex. sec.

Growing up, I thought all those families were normal and our's wasn't. My mother put on a good face, but my dad did not and didn't attend all that often. I grew up and found out the other families were nuttier than mine.

BUT since my daughter is friends with a lot of the leaders from this ward including the most recent stake RS president, I find out things I never knew. ha ha ha ha The stake RS president and her children don't necessarily get along. My daughter thinks this lady is WONDERFUL and worships her, but her daughters don't like her anymore than my daughter likes me. Her son can't his mother and is inactive. He tells her to her face how much he despises her and she was a rotten mother. She doesn't like spending much time with her husband and isn't looking forward to him retiring. But she just puts on a happy face at church and both she and her husband have had high callings.

One of my friends from the ward, who moved a few years ago, didn't like her husband. I think she was enduring to the end. Everyone in the ward LOVED her. She was more honest than most, though.

Being a single mother and having my ex leave me, gay, cheating, etc., I couldn't believe the women who stopped by to tell me about their husbands and how unhappy they were. I got food from the church for a short time, but 2 RS presidents. I thought they were perfect up until then. They didn't get along with their husbands either.

It is a facade. They can hold it for so long on Sundays, but if you lived with them for a few days, you'd see otherwise. I would bet half those women go home and nag their husbands, scream at their husbands, etc. Most of the girls I grew up with are that way with their husbands. One of my friends (who I don't have anything to do with anymore) refused to work even though they needed her to. She had more babies once her youngest went to kindergarten. She was always spending all the money and angry at her husband. Her main purpose in life was to live higher than the neighbors. I have another friend who also is that way, always angry at her husband for not earning enough or being driven enough so they could be rich and live in the rich part of town. She is always depressed because of that. Oh my other friend who is as sweet as she can be, her husband drives her nuts. He expects her to wait on him hand and foot, and she does, but she resents it.

God save me from such a woman....my bride of 42 years chased kidneys and the recent rare pancreas to transplant into some very grateful soul. I listened to her call nights and weekends and she put up with mine and struggling preemies. Irritable, tired, a bit unforgiving at times and rarely but understandably burned out with the system. But we both learned to back off and when...emotions and stress fester unless released...and the idea it is all Heavenly Father’s plan or will negates the remarkable responsibility we have for our own actions and to provide relief for those who are less fortunate. I don’t think God keeps his finger always in the pie.... a great deal is left up to us and he observes our outcome.

Gatorman
Hopefully NCAA tourney bound
Baseball 13-1

carameldreams Wrote:
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> For exMo husbands: was/is your wife a typical
> Mormon woman? Calm, stable, duty bound, smiling
> sweetly, daughter of Christ, selfless,
> unconditionally loving and kind?

I believe she is. She is all those things to a certain degree. Where she is low is in the "happy" dept. I think. She is extremely selfless with only a few "indulgences." I think she tries very hard to meet this Mormon ideal.

> How does a woman do this, day in, day out?

I think pills help. She isn't on them but has been. I think my leaving the church has helped her. She doesn't have to try to live up to this insane standard for women but she still tries to and I benefit from it in some ways and am harmed by it in others. I don't have an equal partner. I don't have a woman who will explore what it means to be human. I have a traditional woman I try my best to help in all the things she does for me an others.

> Exmo husbands: did/do you love this in your
> Mormon wife? Did you feel you had the best
> relationship and everything was, 'easy'? Were you
> glad you had/have such a selfless, loving, SWEET,
> DEVOTED wife? Did/do you love how happy and
> fulfilled she was/is spiritually? How much she
> loved/loves the Prophet and BOM? Etc.?

I love my wife very much. I understand relationships aren't easy and one has to allow their partner the freedoms to be themselves as much as they can stand it. With my wife she has tried to keep the Prophet, BOM, temple stuff out of my life. Sometimes too much and I feel left out. She also seems very uninterested in my social life away from her. I don't know how tenable this situation will be in the future but when we were focused on child rearing it was.

I'm glad my wife is selfless but sometimes it is hard. She needs to be less so in my opinion but that might mean ditching me. I think she would do anything for our children. I would like to think I would as well.

And maybe the root of your questions are whether being the "good" Mormon is all cracked up as Mormons make it, I think she suspects it isn't. She has watched Rated R movies with me. She has her little peccadillos which aren't much. I think holding the Mormon dream up as a standard for womanhood and actually living it are dreadfully out of sync. I believe this is why medication helps them. It is unrealistic and cruel to force women and mothers to think that they have to self sacrifice to whatever maximum degree they can live with in order to be good Mormon women.

Yes, why would we want to be any different than obedient, submissive, and demure?

Our husbands can be abusive jerks, but we wouldn't dare put on anything but a happy face to the outside world.

What you see is not our reality. It's part of the Mormon myth.

We can be spotted from our Opioid abuse, overdose rates, and high depression rates Mormon wives suffer from that are statistically a given.

Our smiling faces give little away, you'd never guess in a thousand years we suffer like we do.

IMO,Mormon wives (might as well include the husbands too) wear "masks" and put up "walls". Masks with that Botticelli serenity. Protective invisible walls. From what I've observed and experienced living in "Zion", Salt Lake or Provo should be re-named Stepford.

@carmel
My ex-TBM wife was exactly as you described, while at church and church functions. Outside of that, she was miserable. She wanted to leave the church but their hooks were in her to far. In the end she doubled down on her testimony. I still feel if she would have dialed the LDS thing back, we would still be married. BTW, she is on husband 4.

It depends on the personality or disposition, of course. Some are predisposed to depression, and some are naturally more happy. My wife is the latter.

Having said that, she became not happy when I bailed on church, and was having career issues.

As long as everything is going as she wants, she can look pretty happy.

She was most happy when I was climbing the leadership ladder at church. Boosted her status. And women are attracted to strong males.

She was more happy when she could stay home with the kids while I was the sole breadwinner making good money.

While I was hating my job, I would occasionally stop by home, and see her having crafting parties with church friends. I was thinking perhaps she could get a job and help out so I didn't have so much pressure. And feminists had told me that women prefer a career.

Anyway, I quit my job to figure some things out (had big savings) and her sweet demeanor vanished. And the divorce threats started.

Now I realize that most guys are only a few paychecks from finding out how their sweet, loving wife really feels about them.

As long as hubby is complying with her demands, she can look pretty happy.

And of course, just looking happy and spriritual boosts your status at church, so many are faking it. My wife can be reaming me out, the phone rings, and she becomes sickeningly sweet to whoever else.

I was a devout believer, but I was never the "typical Mormon woman." One of the reasons my husband was attracted to me is that I was NOT this type of woman, he didn't want that. So, Mormon, but not stepford wife Mormon. Now neither of us are Mormon.

I suspected that the reason many young TBM guys went after the most physically attractive girls is that they thought this was the only differentiating feature. They all were going to become the typical TBM superwoman. It's a culture that thrives on image over substance.
I was pretty smart as a young man as I learned that nevermo girls would put out if you treated them nicely. An intelligent person will have zero attraction to a TBM person. The horrible weekly brainwashing of young kids convinces them to follow a lie.