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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 13, 2018 04:59PM

Long time no post guys-- sorry, school has been hectic lately.

Few items of catch-up:

DW and I have had a lot of conversations about my faith change. I told her I will no longer wear garments, pay tithing on my half of our income, nor attend church meetings once I graduate from BYU. We have discussed to some extent the reasons why I lost my faith, unfailingly resulting in her breaking down either in tears or anger towards the information I provided. It has resulted in very heartfelt talks about our love for each other as well as very heartfelt talks about the fact that she no longer knows if she wants to stay married to me. We have started some couple's therapy to hopefully help with the transition.

At first one of her biggest concerns was the WoW. I initially told her I planned on doing whatever whenever (coffee, drinking a few beers, etc) post graduation. This really wrecked her and eventually caused a compromise that I would never bring those things into the home nor be drunk around future children (we have none currently).

More recently I even agreed not to use those things at all if she were willing to dive into in depth analysis as to why I am leaving the church-- this was, in part, to show her that I'm not leaving so I can sin. The other part was because I would REALLY appreciate it if she at least understood where I was coming from so she no longer resents me for my faith change.

At the end of the day, I get that I am the one changing here and this is very hard for her. BUT, I have decided a while back that I lover her more than our religious opinions and would be TOTALLY HAPPY to stay married even if she stays TBM, so long as I was never forced to do the same.

Father buffalo caught wind of all of this after asking me about how we've been doing and has gone on the offensive, sending me links to fair mormon's rebuttals of the CES letter and other "anti-mormon" literature. Ironically, I read all of that info side by side as I did my studying that led me OUT of the church.

Anyways, we were recently pre-approved for a home loan but now we are not proceeding with buying a house for med school till we figure this all out. It's been very stressful and painful to say the least (for both of us, I'm sure) and I'm seriously starting to think she may leave me over this, even with all the compromises I'm willing to make.

Any advice, support, or just good vibes would be much appreciated. Sorry for the long post!

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Posted by: Gatorman not logged in ( )
Date: March 13, 2018 05:15PM

Stay supportive of her until she lands on her feet. You already know where you stand. She isn’t sure about anything anymore...keep family at bay to give both of you space.


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Posted by: Also a MD ( )
Date: March 13, 2018 05:27PM

There are sooo many women who would love to share a life with you. If she is constantly resentful of you and disagreeable, I’d separate. Residency is hard and all consuming. You don’t want to come from that kind of stress to more stress at home. I found out the truth after being settled into a medical career and 4 kids. It’s a lot harder later. And you will definitely find a loving supportive spouse if your present relationship ends!

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Posted by: Honest TBM ( )
Date: March 15, 2018 04:00PM

1. Give up this whole idea of going to med school. Put all the time/energy you'd put into med school into being a very good obedient servant in your Ward/Stake. There are plenty of chapel/temple toilets to clean so get scrubbing.

2. Tell them at BYU that you were toying with apostasy. That way they can immediately put you on their radar for getting some re-education and learning humility. Its just so shocking and unthinkable to think that anyone could ever begin to have any doubts about whether Joseph Smith, the most amazing person who ever lived the past 1984 years, was a true prophet. Every time I look at the up-to-date church financial records at I'm reminded of just how awesomely super honest/transparent the Church has been from the very beginnings when Joseph Smith gave us all those glorious accounts of his First Vision and shared the world the good news - whether in the chapels to the Saints, around the fireplace to family/friends, in the barn with Fanny Alger, and everywhere.

3. One of the greatest blessings in following my suggestions is that you won't ever have to worry about any job/profession get in the way of your testimony as you'll find its a waste of time to put together or disseminate a Resume when you'd be better off just living on welfare. It'll help you be happily humble as you learn to be content living in poverty far beyond your greatest imaginations.

I can guarantee you that if you attend Church that you'll get about the same level of wisdom from the fellow TBM's there as I'm giving you now. Oh how blessed you shall be :)

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: March 13, 2018 05:28PM

Support -- that I pass on to you with all the sincerity I have!

Advice...wish I could help. Not sure I can. I managed to get out before marrying a celestial bride, so I didn't have to deal with this. All I can do is wish you the best, and tell you that I think you're taking the right approach, being entirely honest and open.

I will add a couple of things:

1. Though entirely without any "WoW" restrictions, I've never ever been drunk in front of my kids. I *have* had alcohol in front of them (and with them, since my oldest is over 21 now). Mormons have this incorrect idea that drinking ANY alcohol is "getting drunk." It's not. You know that. Your wife doesn' maybe, just maybe, you can show her how she's wrong about that.

2. I'd avoid calling it "losing my faith." Instead, call it something like "getting more information/knowledge." It may seem trivial, but the terms we use matter. They'll insist you "lost your faith." You didn't. You learned new facts and got more complete information beyond the lies the church taught you. That's a point worth making, IMHO.

Hang in there. Keep loving your wife. Get to that med school. And have a beer :)

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 03:16PM

Thanks for the advice Hie. I've tried to explain the difference between a couple of drinks and drunk but she doesn't seem to understand. As for what I call this, thanks-- I seem to put it in their perspective more than calling it what it actually is: greater understanding.

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Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 05:17PM

I was thinking exactly the same as Hie’s two points as I read through your post. You need to frame this stuff in rationale vocabulary, not theirs. You’re not lured away because you want a cold brewski, or otherwise want to “sin.” You’re leaving because Joseph’s Myth is Bull$hit. You haven’t “lost your faith.” You’re on to the con.

Don’t even talk about wanting to drink coffee or a cold beer. Doing so gives credence to the notion that YOU are the problem, that you are a “bad” person, and that’s baloney.

Don’t let the dialog focus on the things that leaving will “allow” you to do. Keep the focus on the fact that you’re leaving because it’s a fraud, it’s untrue. That makes TSCC the bad guy.

By the way, you don’t have to drink coffee or beer just because you leave. Just leaving will improve your life.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: March 25, 2018 01:57AM

Or drink coffee, wine and beer for their health benefits. They’re a lot better than the Aspartame-laden soft drinks that lobotomized the previous prophet.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: March 13, 2018 05:46PM

Personally, I would tell your father that now is not the time. Tell him that you need to focus on your relationship with your wife.

You are the one who needs to make the call, but IMO I would ask her to make a decision before you head off to med school. She has enough information at this point to have an idea about what your future life together would look like. Ask her to commit to the marriage or pursue another path.

If it's one thing I've learned in life, Mightybuffalo, it's that it really does take two. You are making some sacrifices, but so must she if your relationship is to work. Don't put it all on yourself! It may be that it will be too much for her, and if so, it's best to find out now before financial obligations increase and the children come along. You don't want her to take your kids back home (Utah?) when she decides that she's had enough. You want a partner that will make the moves with you, stick with you, form a true partnership with you, and raise a family *with* you.

Don't sell yourself short. You have a lot to offer a woman now and will have even more later. If she can't appreciate that, it's best to find out now.

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 03:19PM

That's exactly how I feel. Her therapist is telling me (through her) that I need to give her more time to decide whether she wants to continue the marriage. My thinking is that if she truly felt the way I do about her, it wouldn't necessarily be an easy marriage, but it should at least be an easy decision to stay together. Now I'm questioning myself whether or not its a good idea to stay together, especially with all the demands coming up in our life.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: March 25, 2018 02:16AM

She’s up against her personality. Maybe she can overcome her attachment to the church way of doing things, maybe not. Some people are just low in openness. At least you’re hedging your bets. Mormonism as a culture is a way of being. It’s one that insists that it’s the only correct way, which is an assertion it’s not qualified to make. It’s religious quackery, like someone who never went to med school setting up shop as a doctor because their quack friends have a practice. Ya might want to consider a different doctor.

There are endless ways of being. What are the odds the one that relies on institutionalized deception and whitewashing is the best one?

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: March 13, 2018 06:01PM

By all that's holy don't have kids.

It things go south, you'll be greatful that one or more precious lives are not in turmoil.

To many people have been denied parental rights because if religious differences.

Don't put yourself and future offspring into that hell. It lssts a lifetime.

As for your Father. He is trying to help. Appreciate that he cares for you but ask him for some space so you and your wife can come to an agreement.

Smart to pass on the house too.

Good luck.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 13, 2018 06:08PM

My father was sure until the day he died that I still had a testimony and it only needed to be uncovered. He tried everything. It is really hard for Mormons to accept that there is not a shred of a testimony left.

I would say your wife will not be able to make her decision until she accepts the fact that your decision regarding leaving Mormonism is final. As long as she has a glimmer of hope--like your father working on you to bring you back to the fold--she cannot move forward one way or the other. When she realizes that the groundwork for the choice has been laid completely, that she cannot change you, she should finally be able to choose---stay and work out the details, or call it a day.

It appears the Mormons are hemorrhaging members as more and more catch onto the deception they have been infected with. It would be such a shame if your wife catches on too late to rush her to the ER. (Couldn't help the bad medical humor here---good luck)

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 02:55PM

Done & Done Wrote:
> My father was sure until the day he died that I
> still had a testimony and it only needed to be
> uncovered. He tried everything. It is really
> hard for Mormons to accept that there is not a
> shred of a testimony left.

It is impossible. They remind me of the pink and blue unicorns here.

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Posted by: nevermojohn ( )
Date: March 13, 2018 06:29PM

So much for keeping everything nice and quiet before graduation.

I would advise not buying a house for medical school,even under better circumstances. You are already going to be under pressure, and having additional financial pressures from owning a house isn't something that I would want on my plate.

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Posted by: Darren Steers ( )
Date: March 13, 2018 06:36PM

nevermojohn Wrote:

> I would advise not buying a house for medical
> school,even under better circumstances. You are
> already going to be under pressure, and having
> additional financial pressures from owning a house
> isn't something that I would want on my plate.

His wife has a good job. They can afford a house together if that is what is wanted.

But not buying a house together while in the current situation, we all agree on that.

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Posted by: nevermojohn ( )
Date: March 13, 2018 08:17PM

I thought the wife was going to start law school. Med school, law school and a mortgage, home owner's insurance, fix this, fix that, etc. No thanks.

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 03:19PM

DW won't start law school for another year. But yes good points

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Posted by: subeamnotlogedin ( )
Date: March 24, 2018 10:34AM

The fact that your wife will go to law school next year gives me hope that she can break the Mormon thinking. A testimony is based on feelings that the church is true and not science. Don't talk about religion to her for at least a few weeks let the dust settle. After that let her read the lds essays. Show her love and kindness make her breakfast or whatever she likes. This is like pulling out the carpet under her, make sure you catch her before she hits the ground. If you guys get divorced do it respectfully and do not use her religion against her and I hope she would do the same. My advice take it slow don't make any haste decisions while under stress.

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Posted by: numbersRus ( )
Date: March 13, 2018 09:06PM

Yes, there are those who don't know when to say "when", but most people can enjoy a glass or two of wine without getting drunk, especially with a meal.

Hopefully you can educate her, but if she just expects you to follow WoW, esp in the house, that is not such a bad start.

Agree, no home ownership or kids until the transition boils over.

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: March 13, 2018 09:17PM


My thoughts on your relationship at this time, knowing she is hurting.

See if the two of you can make an agreement to give your relationship a year with you being a former Mormon and she being a TBM. With med school/law school coming up to add to the mix, a year is a good time to see if the two of you, as a couple, can have different religious views, and still maintain a healthy and respectful marriage.

Just my thoughts, as I don't think either of you should rush into such a big decision (i.e. "what about our marriage") when emotions are running high and deep.

AFA your father. "Love you, Dad, but I am a grown man now, and will make my decisions about my religious beliefs. Please respect my decision as per the 11th Article of Faith. Again, I love you."

Or some sort of version of that that reflect you, and the relationship you have with your father, the reality being, you ARE a grown man now, and boundaries have to be made clear.

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Posted by: mayrach ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 12:46AM

I just recently went through something similar to your situation earlier this year. Except, just 3 weeks after I told my husband I no longer believed LDS and would be a Christian, he divorced me.

Just love her and show her you care. Show her that your morals are not lost simply because you choose not to be LDS. Show her you stand by the commitment to marriage.

In my case, my husband almost immediately told about 8 members of his purely TBM family that I was leaving the church. It HIGHLY escalated the situation, drove our small improvements in reconciliation and communication to a grinding halt, and created a deep schism between my husband and me that, after all my best efforts, was never remedied.

It's my opinion that you're right to draw those compromises for her and the marriage. I believe that shows your love and commitment to her. I went through the same phases of compromise with my husband: First, I said I'd freely drink coffee, have glasses of wine, and tea, and would have it in the house (except alcohol) in the future with kids. Then, seeing his anger and frustration at that, and to prove that I did not leave the church just to have certain substances, I agreed to not drink coffee, tea or alcohol in the house or around him, or at all.

Compromise where you can, but if you have a certain set of values that are important, think carefully on those. In the end, my husband just said "I can't expose my kids to you if you're going to do this". He never was willing to even listen to the doctrine/teachings that I found to be fake. I used all LDS sourcing to disprove them, but he stuck his head in the sand and began claiming I was just filled with anti-mormon material, that I hated the church, hated him, and started a slew of ad-hominem attacks on my character in order to protect his faith.

I understand your pain and I can tell you that it might not make sense. It will be hard, and frustrating. Allow as much love in the marriage as possible and try to listen and understand each other. Even if the worst case scenario happens, you will make it through. If I could, you could! You're always stronger than you imagine. It takes so much courage to do what you've done so far. You're amazing for standing up for the truth you found. Never second-guess your decision, no matter how hard it is, or what people will say about you. Good luck my friend!

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 01:27AM

Very powerful exposition, Mayrach!

I'm a proponent of selfishness. I concentrate on doing things that are going to benefit me, which often involves putting someone's feelings ahead of mine. And that only remains viable when the other party is reciprocating, put my needs ahead of hers.

You have to really, really love the other person or persons (family/kids) for this to be feasible and if the people to whom you give your all aren't appreciative, it hurts.

Being judged for commitment to things you don't believe in is unfair, but what else do TBMs have to use a standard? She'll believe that you can't take her to the CK, and that probably you won't be able to sire kids with BIC-level spirits; they'll be a few merit badges short of perfection, a few too many days and nights on the fence...

She's going to receive a ton of reinforcement (even from your family) about the issue of you letting her down, of you not being the man she married, because your sealing won't be valid. If she's bothering to listen to that theory, she's already abandoned you and is probably just giving lip service to the idea that 'We Can Make It Work!!"

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 03:24PM


Thanks so much.

I'm just amazed that she and a lot of her TBM support group can possibly think that I am a horrible person for wanting to drink coffee, not wear silly underwear, and not pay 10% all forsomething I don't believe. She admits that there are good people outside of the church, but I wonder now if there exists a TBM that ACTUALLY believes you can be a good person and not abide by mormon standards. Judging from this experience I would say that it is all a lie-- no one else is as good as a WoW abiding TBM.

Your words of encouragement are very kind, thanks!

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Posted by: Moe Howard ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 08:15AM

You just couldn't keep quiet until graduation. Some observations:
-Negotiating with wife about WoW (are you listening to yourself?)
-Father has entered the picture. (That light coming at you in the tunnel is a freight train)
-Your heartfelt talks (She doesn't know if she wants to be married to you. Between you and me, its a red flag)
-You and your wife have fundamental differences. Your wife's beliefs are her own, reading a bunch of anti Mormon stuff will not help your cause.

BTW, how did two college students qualify for a home loan?

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 03:26PM

Moe Howard,

Big red flag to me too. That's why I'm starting to rethink my position too.

We both have pretty steady incomes, FYI. I have been with a company full-time through school for 3 years and have a good savings from frugal living. That's how we can afford a house.

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Posted by: namarod ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 10:07AM

I was in your situation 11 years ago. Me leaving the morg almost destroyed our marriage. We had to get marriage counseling and set some boundaries. My wife has become a more devout TBM. I would hold off on having your wife read non-faith promoting material. It's good to explain to her your issues with the Church, but I would only offer her information to study if she asks and is interested. I just had to accept that my wife will probably be TBM until she dies. I love her enough to accept that and respect and try not to be critical about her religious beliefs. I do my secular life and she her Mormon way of living. We try to avoid talking about anything religious because we're never going to agree and it usually ends up in an argument. Sure, all of this has changed our marriage; but we love each other and have worked like hell to make it work. Next month we celebrate our 24th anniversary.

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Posted by: an exmo ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 12:42PM

You sir are taking a very dangerous risk in not keeping your mouth shut about the Church until you have graduated from BYU and gotten a copy of your official transcript. Before you open your mouth or read anything else I suggest you read and learn how brutally evil the BYU administration truly can be. Then I suggest you shut up, tell pretend for a few months, and then

One thing to keep in mind is that YOU are not the one who changed. You are still the same person who was taught to be honest, learn, and all those good things that the Church actually does teach. Who hasn't been honest is the Church and their dishonesty started long before any of your grandparents were born. So don't blame yourself. Don't apologize. Just use this remaining time to get your degree, prepare yourself for med school, focus on the well-being of your marriage & other relationships, and live your own life.

Best wishes to you. Yes it sucks to have to pretend. But think of the consequences of what could happen if you don't for just a few more months.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 01:00PM

Have you said to her that you just don't know if you can be married to her if she is going to continue being TBM? It goes both ways. Does she realize that? It seems you said she has been divorced before. Does she really, really want to go back to dating again, trying to find a good mormon guy with 2 divorces under her belt?

I saw what was out there when I was a single at age 27. I typed for the bishop and he told me he would sit on the stand and look around the congregation and say he could understand why many of the girls in the ward weren't married, but I confused him. He told me I was the nicest looking girl in the ward and I had a great job. He told me to never tell the guys in the ward what I earned as none of them earned what I did and they would feel threatened. Mormons just didn't like me--but I dated a lot of nonmormons after I realized if I was ever going to date, I should. That was at age 20.

When my gay husband left me, I had decided there was no way in hell I was EVER DATING in mormonism again. I had some stupid lady tell me that if I'd just get my divorce, she'd get me involved in single adults. The thought that went through my mind was "another reason not to get my divorce." Eventually, one of my nonmormon boyfriends got divorced and we've been together 13 years (not married, I'll never marry again).

But you wife has to be thinking no way in hell I'm going back into that dating mess. But then she says she doesn't think she can be married to you under these conditions. Whatever happened to "endure to the end?" We have to have it all in this life? I mean if you really believe, don't you endure to the end? I would have. I would have stayed with my ex to the very end no matter what. I told him he could cheat. We built him a place to live downstairs so we could raise our kids together, but he took off anyway (now he lives down there).

Does she want some substandard mormon guy, or does she want you?????? Call her bluff.

How did your dad find out? Your wife talked?? When you asked her not to. Thankfully, my parents listened. My dad used to ask me when I was going back. He was not very active all my life and he was asking. Each time, I'd tell him a little bit more about what happened to me with church leaders (I knew my ex was gay before I married him). The church leaders put me through hell. My dad never heard the whole story, but he was furious and he listened. My mom, the devout mormon, told me I could be spiritual without being religious. They saw what I went through. I was their most devout child. Then my dad started telling me his issues with mormonism. When I read on here, I am so GRATEFUL for parents who chose to understand and to listen.

You dad needs to treat you like the intelligent individual you are. You are his son. He raised you. He really DOES KNOW what kind of person you are. Challenge him on that. Did he raise a sheep or a free thinker?

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: March 25, 2018 02:40AM

She should be grateful. The OP is abandoning TSCC precisely because he’s NOT an asshole. Er, don’t tell her that.

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Posted by: Trails end ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 01:10PM

Haha...this is my friend would charge hell with a bucket of's truly sad to hear of so many separating or even having problems over a dam scam...take a good grip...suck your hat down...she's gonna buck

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 03:02PM

"If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life, as from that dry and parching wind of the African deserts called the simoom, which fills the mouth and nose and ears and eyes with dust till you are suffocated, for fear that I should get some of his good done to me — some of its virus mingled with my blood."

-Walden, Henry David Thoreau

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Posted by: Free Man ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 04:42PM

Where do people get the idea that they have to start drinking coffee and booze if they leave the church?

Almost like joining another cult.

Are you going for tattoos and nose rings also? Because the church is against that.

How about screwing other women?

I mean, if you have to drink alcohol because the church was against it.....

You would also think people going to medical school would be less inclined to ingest toxins. There are reasons to avoid toxins other than religion.

You going to start smoking and chewing too? I'd divorce you if I was her. Nasty.

How about thinking for yourself instead of following the crowd as you did in church.

Don't know why it's so hard to continue the lifestyle, just cut out the religion.

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Posted by: Free Man ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 04:44PM

BTW, you're going to spend much of your day as MD telling people to cut drinking and smoking. Why should they?

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 14, 2018 05:59PM

Good job blowing all of this out of proportion.

Believe it or not, some people enjoy drinking alcohol and coffee for more than rebelling against the cult they used to be a part of. If you can't see that then you are just as bad as the mormons who think people only leave the church to "sin".

It doesn't take an MD to understand the idea of moderation.

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Posted by: moremany ( )
Date: March 15, 2018 10:03AM

Can't save the savior. The ONLY thing to be saved from is the trap of guilt, shame, and fear that is mormonism.

If all these people weren't lost, they wouldn't have to be ("saved") found [wrong]. The irony.

Good luck!


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Posted by: Seline ( )
Date: March 15, 2018 01:18PM

Random thoughts from a lady MD here.....
1. WoW issues: it is really easy these days to find studies touting the health benefits of both coffee and tea. I suggest you print some out and present them to DW. Forget about alcohol for now - choose your battles.
2. Consider a post-nuptial agreement. DW seems to be pulling out the “I don’t know if I want to be married to you anymore!” line a lot... it would be wise to protect yourself. The longer she stays and financially supports you, the larger chunk of your future she takes when she leaves. A postnuptial is reasonable as you are no longer confident in her commitment to your marriage.
3. Speaking of “IDKIIWTBMTYA”, are you prepared for her to use this line every.single.time. you have a disagreement for the foreseeable future? Medical school, residency, and starting a career is stressful enough with a partner who is supportive and who you trust to have your back. It doesn’t sound like DW is there for you right now.

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 15, 2018 03:32PM

Good stuff Seline. I haven't considered that thought. If she doesn't know now, how many other times in the future will she also not know over trivial things. Interesting thought

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Posted by: MnRN ( )
Date: March 16, 2018 02:10AM

Everything Seline said, plus:
You probably don't want to make a decision before graduation, but it should be made before you move.
This timeline gives her some time to realize she has to compromise too if you're going to stay married, but avoids the stress of a divorce during your tremendously stressful medical school years.
I didn't realize she was going to law school. This means two educational pressure cookers that call for a peaceful home life to survive. The staying married statistics are bad enough for just a spouse married to a medical student. I can't imagine they'd be any rosier when law school is added to the mix.
Setting a summer decision goal would save her a move to a new town for nothing, and may be the kindest thing for her in several ways. A twice-divorced female Mormon law student will have a harder time finding #3, and the older she is the worse it will be.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: March 15, 2018 03:39PM

#3 Speaks volumes.

The focus shouldn't be on saving the marriage, but on having a healthy marriage with equal contribution.

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Posted by: PapaKen ( )
Date: March 18, 2018 04:40PM

Don’t have kids.

But if you do and it’s a boy, he’ll likely grow up to be an Indian Chief.

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Posted by: bobofitz ( )
Date: March 24, 2018 06:27AM

What does that mean? Please explain, I’m sure I’m not the only one that doesn’t get it.

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Posted by: bobofitz ( )
Date: March 24, 2018 11:33PM

Thanks to you,[|]..(by the way, I don’t get that either) I must be havin a bad day. Yes, thanks for the Wiki reference. Although I get it’s a reference to an old 40’s song, I still don’t get the male offspring of doctors and lawyers grow up to be the leaders of Native American Tribes? ...or did that only happen in the 40’s? Guess I’m havin a bad day. Regardless, I agree with Papaken’s premise for MB...don’t have kids until things sort out.

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Posted by: Pooped ( )
Date: March 18, 2018 08:57PM

Well, looks like the slow and cautious road many of us recommended took a serious detour. You've jumped into the debate with your wife and now Dad is there too. Whew! Emotions must be running pretty high.

First, be glad you are young and this is all a blip (yes, a rather large one admittedly) in your long future road. Both you and your wife will have lots of time to recover from whatever the future outcome of all this.

Second, some psychologists suggest, and many neurologists agree, that the brain does not reach full development until the middle and sometimes late 20"s. Maybe your wife isn't mentally mature j enough just yet to move at the rate you are hoping for. Smart doesn't always equate to mature. Throw in a lack of desire for change and you have a real uphill climb ahead.

Third, I've banged my own head against the wall too many times trying to get through to TBM's. I finally decided that before I ever again get into a debate with any TBM I will first ask the question: "If, just possibly, the church is NOT true would you want to know?" Don't let them off the hook if they say something like, "Well, I KNOW it's true." If you get an answer like that or if you get an honest answer of "No!" you are defeated before you have begun. Throw in the towel. But if your wife, and maybe Dad too, can give an honest answer of "Yes, I'd want to know." there may be hope.

All best wishes.

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Posted by: bobofitz ( )
Date: March 24, 2018 06:31AM

The “Golden Question” in reverse!

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Posted by: CheapGrace ( )
Date: March 24, 2018 04:15AM

Turmoil is the absence of perspective. Ten years from now, you'll see how smart it is to extract an abscess, of any kind.

Drama subsides with each passing week. Clear heads make for welded hearts. No ceremony can do the trick.

I congratulate you.

Your integrity is showing.

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Posted by: bobofitz ( )
Date: March 24, 2018 06:34AM

Good thing you’re going to be a doctor and not a poker player.

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Posted by: scmdnotloggedin ( )
Date: March 24, 2018 07:54AM

I don't recall what med school you said you will attend, but most first year programs start sometime in August. Whenever your starting date is, pick a date by which you have to know her plans, keeping in mind that there's no law barring her from changing her mind (or, for that matter, there's no law barring you from changing your mind).

If I were you I would plan to leave for med school at the beginning of whatever month it starts, if not the month before that. Then if she decides not to come, you have your answer. Of course she may start out with you, then take off. Whatever she does, please try as hard as possible not to let her screw up your studies. Medical school is tough, and you'll need 100% capacity to focus on your studies.

It would be prudent be extra careful about birth control. A child right now wouldn't be the world's best-planned family expansion even if you knew you were going to remain together. Actually , no one really knows that, but your marriage seems more precarious than most at this current time. You really don't want an unplanned child thrown into the mix.

You were really wise to hold off on the house purchase.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: March 24, 2018 09:25AM

He starts early August.

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Posted by: Elyse ( )
Date: March 24, 2018 10:58AM

From what I've seen, if the husband drops the church and the wife remains TBM there will be serious problems forever.

The wife will always see you as "less than", this attitude is reinforced by weekly church attendance where she sees priesthood holders projecting their best images.

Forget trying to live a normal life, with occasional cocktail parties at your house or at friends' houses.
Ditto for relaxed vacations, your wife needs to cover up.

If you have kids, they will develop a condescending attitude toward you, no matter how successful you may be otherwise.

The same goes for other church members showing up and working with your wife.
Of course,she will also take their advise over yours.

In the end, she may still divorce you.
This is exactly what happened to a successful heart surgeon in our ward.
Think long and hard how you want your life to be.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: March 25, 2018 01:26PM

Yes, TBM family in the mix, who will never respect you because to them you are broken. Doesn’t help. The OP’s wife thinks he’s broken. Maybe she’s right, if she can’t respect him anymore. She’s a victim of church brainwashing that was too effective.

Mormonism is a parasitic disease spread by missionaries. Potentially fatal if not treated.

It’s not who you love, but how you love. She really needs to choose between you and the church. If she can’t choose you, the how is mighty weak. Strong women do exist.

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Posted by: koriwhore ( )
Date: March 24, 2018 03:46PM

Tell her if she would rather be married to somebody who was more interested in maintaining the social benefits of Mormonism than the truth, to not let tge door hit her in the ass on the way out.
And ask your Dad if he actually read the CES letter and tge FAIR rebuttals? Or if he just forwarded tge link w/o reading how absurd it was to excuse polyandry, pedophilia, racism and a pornographic presentation of the God of Joseph's Myth, fully erect in Mormon scriptures.
If your wife and Father can justify all of that is there ANYthing they can't justify?

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Posted by: moremany ( )
Date: March 25, 2018 03:09PM

They can SAVE themselves.

Overwise what a WASTE.


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Posted by: Badassadam1 ( )
Date: March 26, 2018 03:41AM

I expect my father will try to save me as well that's why i am trying to get as much knowledge ammunition as i can to counter the guy which i have never done before in my entire life.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 Unregistered. ( )
Date: March 26, 2018 08:34PM

This is the dilemma that I faced many years ago, but under very different circumstances. (You can read my post on the subject of: "Making It Work With a Believing Spouse.)

Ultimately, in your case, you may not be able to ever get your spouse to understand your loss of believe in the Mormon Church's claims.

If she cannot adjust to your changes and sees it as a betrayal and is resentful, the chances of staying married to her, in my view, are next to zero.

She is going to have to make some decisions. Study, find out why you changed your mind, or refuse. If she refuses, she is telling you that you are not worthy to be her husband as she will only see this as a lost of her Eternal Life in the Celestial Kingdom.

If this is her thinking, I'd advise you to let her go. I don't say that lightly. My view is that it is doubtful she will trust you ever again. She will have to decide if she can be married to a non-believer, or only accept marriage to a worthy Melchizedek Priesthood holder.

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Posted by: scaredhusband ( )
Date: March 26, 2018 10:21PM

I went through a similar situation about 2&1/2 years ago. My wife reacted very horribly to my decision to leave the cult. We talked about divorce. She brought her father into the mix. Her parents poisoned the well, so to speak. They put the idea in her head that because I wanted to leave TSCC I was looking for a way out of the marriage. It took me a long time to get that idea out of her head. I was able to prove that I wanted to be with her. And even after all the horrible and mean things she said to me out of fear we worked at rebuilding trust. There were compromises that I shouldn't have made. Like saying I would attend to support her. (It became far to painful for me to attend) I came here for support(you can probably tell by my user). I started a meetup in my area because there wasn't one that contained people in my age group. I met people in similar situations. It helped me not feel so alone. I was able to vent about the church, and release some frustrations so I didn't take it out on her.

After time though cooler heads prevailed. Our love for each other was greater than having a common belief.

Ultimately our marriage was ours and both of our families respected that. We didn't right fight. I don't preach to here and she doesn't preach to me. I am comfortable where I am at. She has come a long way from her first knee jerk reaction. For christmas gifts she got me a coffee maker and some coffee. It was a wonderful expression of love to me.

I wish you nothing but the best. Couples therapy was an eye opening experience for both of us. Mostly because the therapist spent most of our first and only session talking about religion and information instead of learning tools of communication. He was a very nuanced believer and it shook my wife a little. After that we started communicating on our own without a mediator. She still believes and that is ok. She sees things about the church that most believers don't.

I guess in my ramblings, there is hope. Two people that love each other first and then other things second can make it work.

As for your father, I never rebutted anything he said. I take that back, I did the first couple times. I soon found out that there is no reasoning with him. He has swallowed all the apologetics and can't possibly see it any other way. Him being personal friends with Jeff Lindsay doesn't help much either. I had to teach him that there were boundaries. It worked and we have a good relationship now.

Take a deep breath, pat yourself on the back. You are an incredible human. You got this.

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Posted by: Julie Byam ( )
Date: March 27, 2018 01:29AM

This is something I know about. It is what can happen if this is not settled long before you have children. My best friend from childhood and I mean 6o years ago married at 19 and she is Catholic and he was not decided. They have 2 children and the marriage was never very happy. My friend always considered herself smarter, than her husband and made more money than he did. Flash-forward to the children having grown up and she divorced him. I liked him and so did my husband. Not long after the Divorce she told me he was involved with a Mormon woman. A 30+ year old never married old maid and I was scared to death. I gave her books to read and told her the girls would lose their Dad. I'm not happy to be right,but he married this woman and has not seen his 2 girls who are middle aged and has never so much as seen his grandsons ...........ever. They are almost grown. He considers them NOT his family. I told my friend what I feared might happen and she never forgave me for being right. We don't talk and sometimes I don't blame him for her, but for his kids and grandchildren, it's awful. I called him once years ago and he would not talk to me.

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