There are so many Calvinist preachers nowadays. What they believe is gravely pessimistic. God creates humanity, chooses a relatively small number of them to save, and sends the majority to Hell to fry forever. He doesn't give them a chance to choose, because it is His pleasure to burn them forever--and he created them for that purpose, anyway!

Are we living in the Dark Ages?

I bring this up because I had a Calvinist (online) tell me that I probably not one of the elect, judging by my writing. I am likely to be among those who are going to burn forever. And I thought I had troubles in Mormonism! Mormonism is false, but at least it's humane! I wonder if this is what drives people to join LDS, JW, SDA,Christodelphian, and others that many would call cults. Those who don't join cults may be getting driven out of Christianity altogether. Is this why so many have left, and are still leaving, Christianity? Do other religions teach this kind of horrible philosophy? Who would want to worship a monstrous God? Most Calvinists are proudly sure that they themselves are saved. God's not going to burn me, but he is likely to burn you, because he condemns most people.

In Mormonism (don't worry, I won't go back), I could sleep at night. I wasn't afraid to die. The Mormon God is kind, even though he dumps you into a lower kingdom forever and banishes you from his sight. But that lower kingdom is pleasant and you don't have to fear torture. J.W., SDA, and Christodelphians believe that you are snuffed out of consciousness forever, which is much nicer than being sizzled for eternity.

If I believed what that Calvinist told me, I would be terrified to die. I would have no peace on my deathbed, but would be dreading that last breath. It doesn't matter how I live my life, what kind of character I build, or whether I love God. This is ludicrous. Such teaching must be driving people to Atheism, a cult, or a non-Christian peaceful religion such as Buddhism.

I remember watching a video where a Calvinist preacher was proclaiming his success at saving babies from the fate of abortion (hanging outside Planned Parenthood and talking parents out of it). He is ecstatic about the babies he has saved from being snuffed out, but in his case I find myself wondering why he was bothering. By helping them to be born, wasn't he condemning most of them to eternal torture in Hell?

I hope nobody minds that I brought up religion, but I feel like I have to get this off my chest. Many Southern Baptist Churches are going Calvinist. Many Southern Baptist young people are walking out and even leaving Christianity. Some are becoming atheist. Need I wonder why?

Well, it drove me into Mormonism. Big time.

I went to a well-respected Bible College (fully accredited) and double majored in Theology and Koine Greek. I also graduated top of my class, if I’m allowed to brag a little.

My last year of school I took a course from the Vice President of the school. He was a diehard Calvinist - the sort who thinks unborn babies go to hell. It was then I realized that the Calvinist “god” was a monster with whom I wanted nothing to do.

Most of my professors turned out to be Calvinists, including some I respected. Some weren’t. The fact that such brilliant minds couldn’t agree was a HUGE disappointment/let down/shock, etc.

I started fervently trying to find the truth. Enter the Mormon church.

Thing is, I would still rather be Mormon than go back to that faith. Any day of the week. Hands down. Converting was a huge step up for me!

Isn’t that sad?

One of the reasons I was attracted into Mormonism is because they had a much more humane afterlife than many churches.

But back then, I thought that Calvinism was "from the olden days", almost dead. My American Literature teacher had told our class that not many people followed Calvinism anymore. Where we lived, there weren't any Calvinists around. Everyone I met, both pastor and lay, was into free will. The 70's was a time of Born Again fervor, so Christianity was talked about a lot.

But now, Calvinism appears to be an epidemic! When I emerged from Mormonism, I was anxious to learn about different Christian belief systems because I wanted to find another church. I was horrified at all the Calvinists; I hadn't noticed that they had grown so much in number. I decided to listen to some YouTube Calvinists to figure out what the attraction was.

I listened to Matt Slick (from Shawn McCraney's show), who proclaimed himself a 5-point Calvinist. He then explained the TULIP theology. I thought it was terrible. I couldn't imagine Jesus being cruel and only dying for a relative handful of human beings. I listened to a few other Calvinist preachers, but I couldn't stomach it. Now I like to listen to Leighton Flowers, who is a former Calvinist but now teaches against it.

A few years ago, I took a beginner's course in Koine Greek. Recently, I bought a couple of workbooks from Amazon and a Nestle-Aland text. I'm hoping to slowly learn and master the language.

What you two are describing on a personal level was what happened historically, I believe, in the early church. So much of what was abroad in JS's day was some form of Calvinism, so very pessimistic. So Mormonism did offer some rays of light, some hope.

Imagine the notion that stillborn children would be exalted: what could be more attractive to a Christian woman than that?

Yes, his mother was Presbyterian. Presbyterian is Calvinist. They were great with Hellfire sermons. No wonder Joseph Smith decided not to include Hell in Mormon theology.

Well, I guess we can be genuinely thankful for that!

I’m rusty in my Koine, Brigid, but feel free to hit me up if you have any questions. I still have my Nestle-Aland text around!

I'm definitely a "language" person, but Koine was the first language I couldn't even begin to understand.

Maybe it was the textbook, which was a nightmare. Imagine having all of these concepts thrown at you in the FIRST lesson: singular, plural; masculine, feminine, neuter; verb conjugation AND declension of nouns. It was overwhelming.

I learned enough conversational modern Greek that I could read street signs and menus, say "please, thank you, and where is ____?" Just enough to get by. Nothing fancy.

Catnip--I first learned some Koine by watching YouTube videos. The instructor was easygoing on grammar in the beginning. Even later, he was moderate with it. If he had been heavy right at the beginning, I would not have been able to deal with it.

It is amazing the resources that are now available to learn koine. I first studied it more than 25 years ago or so. At that point in time the only grammar was Machen and you had to learn from a teacher or correspondence by mail. Now there are amazing resources. The market is saturated with grammars and helpful books and podcasts that make it easier to learn. But it still takes years to get decent at it to where you can read the NT in the original. One professor estimated that you should expect to study koine for 10 years before you become proficient.

To this day I still read the NT in the original when I can. It is a hobby with me. I once took a course in Greek from a local Pastor through community learning. He was a pretty good guy but turned out to be a CALVINIST! Horror! Yes they are everywhere and Calvinism is truly depressing.

I was a Presbyterian and left to become a Catholic.

Well, you are talking about the far right (most conservative end) of Christianity. There is also a far left and a middle, with which I am more familiar. The far right are a bunch of religious nutters in my opinion.

I also think it should be noted that Presbyterianism has a very progressive branch (the PCUSA church,) which has female pastors.

JS didn’t particularly care for the Presbyterians because of his older brother, Alvin, who died a premature death and would have been consigned to hell. Section 136 of the D&C resolved the Alvin issue in Mormonism by stating those who would have believed in life if they were given the chance would enjoy the blessings of the CK. Of course this was prior to any talk about baptism for the dead which added another requirement besides belief.

"Are we living in the Dark Ages?"

Oh, yes. We never left.

All of these are alike in that they are cognitive forms to try and squeeze a person into. Believe this; act like this; do this; and you'll be "saved." It's all external structure rules-beliefs stuff. "Here - wear this style of clothes, walk this way, and it is sufficient. You will be saved."

None of them develop - or even look at - the actual internal state of the person. None teach how to live as a genuine intact whole human being. It's all external form. No internal substance.

This is how the high ranking church official behind the scenes becomes the sexual predator. He's all surface; nothing through and through, nothing genuine. And even he is shocked and genuinely at a loss when finally caught.

There is hunger for something more than mere structure.

When selling opiates to the masses, never get high on your own supply. MTC meets Scarface. Me Chico, I want the world. And everything in it.

In America everything is for sale because we’ve sold our souls. Calvinism sells because we want to believe it. Choose love or choose fear. Eternity can wait forever.

We have many Dutch Calvinists in southern Alberta. They own a large K-12 school in my county, and are for the most part, farmers with large land holdings. They are also somewhat infamous for not vaccinating their children and on being the source of whooping cough and measles outbreaks which spread into the non-Calvinist population.

Calvinism is also known as Puritanism, and many founders of the U.S., particularly those that founded the Massachusetts Bay Colony and the Pilgrims, were Calvinists/Puritans. What drove these people to these shores was the fact that the other countries they were in )England and Holland) couldn't stand their proseletising. And while we may like to think that we're better than our ancestors, every few generations you see the reemergence of this type of religious fervor, especially during times when people believe they are having a hard time.

Something else about the Puritans appears to be universal among human behavior; namely, the belief that certain human groups (whatever group you happen to be involved in) are "saved" while all other humans are not. Though it doesn't speak of a "hell", Mormonism follows the same kind of thinking (note the terrestrial kingdom for non-believers).

I said this appears to be universal. When I was younger, I remember being told by a history teacher that the Japanese people call themselves Nippanese people with "Nippanese" in their language meaning "the chosen people." The Chinese view their country as being "the Middle Kingdom" and that others had to pay tribute to them. The fact that all humans in their humanness are approximately the same and will all have the same end when we die is something we really don't like to admit, even to ourselves.

Catholics and Anglicans are not Calvinistic. I think I can understand why those nations drove them out. Calvinists are the only Christians who teach that you have no choice what's going to happen to you, you can't do anything about it. It must have caused many people a great deal of emotional upset. Think of the fear of dying!Everyone deserves to face their death in peace.

Mormons tend to believe that how you acted in the pre-existence has made you what you are in your life today. They may have dropped the racial divisions in judging a person's former life, but among some there is still some prejudice about class and disability. Maybe not as strong as years ago, but still around. More opportunity in life means better pre-existence.

You can take a chimp out of the jungle, but you can’t take the jungle out of the chimp.

But to become a JW? Probably not. From what I understand they do not have nearly the same laxity with regards to the afterlife as mormons do. They have a chosen few that recieve some sort of heaven and the rest "sleep" at death... perhaps only to inherit the earth, or something of the sorts?

Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't claim to be a JW expert by any means.

I think how one views the Bible can make a big difference in the theology one subscribes to. If you believe the entire Bible is the literal, inerrant Word of God, then you may well believe there is a systematic theology to be found in the Bible that is ultimately the only belief system you can have and be a "true Christian." I've known people who have identified themselves as five-point Calvinists (including some I met in college) who sincerely believe that Calvinism is the only theology that can be sustained when one takes everything the Bible says into account.

I tend to acknowledge lots of symbolism and metaphor, especially in the Old Testament. Otherwise, the OT God comes off as cruel. Old Hebrew literature tends to be loaded with symbolism/metaphor as the culture's way of expressing their theme and main points.

For God so loved the world that WHOSOEVER...sounds pretty inclusive to me.

Thank you for pointing this out, Kentis.

Kentis Wrote:
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> For God so loved the world that WHOSOEVER...sounds
> pretty inclusive to me.

Sure, as long as the WHOSOEVER believes in the magic jesus story, and "accepts" that character as their personal savior.
Otherwise, it's hell.

Yeah, so much more inclusive.

Not.

Not every Christian believes that. Pope Francis has said that even some Atheists will make it to Heaven. Many Christians believe that there is a "goodness" scale rather than a belief scale.

Does anyone know whether the Pilgrims were Calvinists? I remember my American History teacher saying that they were "Separatists" but that nobody know for sure if they were actually Calvinists. I wonder what most historians of the period really think. It would make me feel good to think that they were not Calvinists.

But the Pilgrims were a small group. It seems strange to me if they didn't have a connection to some Protestant fervor of the time. Unless the Separatists were a Protestant fervor. I guess I don't know my history very well. I remember that they went to Holland first for religious freedom, but they didn't like it when their kids took on Dutch ways. If it were me, I would rather take on Dutch ways than get on a ship and sail across the ocean, to land in a place that many considered savage, full of unknowns.

When I converted to Mormonism, I learned of the LDS stamp on these historical events. The Pilgrims and Puritans had paved the way for the "Fullness of the Gospel" to come later. Now I am undoing the Mormon recordings in my head, and I am trying to look at these historical events with a different pair of lenses. Was our nations started by a bunch of religious nuts who couldn't find a way to get along in the Old World? I remember all of the Mormon whining about their persecution, until I read the true history and then thought: "Oh, no wonder!"

Puritans were Calvinists

The Puritans were definitely Calvinists. But according to my history teacher, some historians were questioning whether the group known as the Pilgrims actually were. They referred to them as Separatists. But I think that since they were desperate to stay out of England and could not abide the tolerant ways of the Dutch, they were most probably Calvinists.

Calvanism is weird throughout, however, they embraced the internet 10 years ago and made their presence felt.

John piper, Paul Washer and John mcCarthur weird me out.

Especially the latter who has a bible for sale in his own name and even autographs it.

I didn't know this had happened, because I was TBM until three years ago. I mostly looked at LDS things.

In trying to bolster the church and to keep people from leaving, some Mormons were putting out erroneous information and I absorbed a lot of it until I got wise and did genuine research. Rod Meldrum was one of those spreading misinformation.

In learning that the LDS church can't be true, I was anxious to listen to other Christians on YouTube. I was horrified to run into one Calvinist preacher after another. I had thought that Calvinism had fizzed away a long time ago. I was keenly disappointed when I discovered that Jeff Durbin, the "cool" pastor who has done a lot of work to get Mormons out of Mormonism, is a Calvinist.

brigidbarnes Wrote:
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I am likely to be among
> those who are going to burn forever. And I thought
> I had troubles in Mormonism! Mormonism is false,
> but at least it's humane!

I disagree 100%. Mormonism is one of the most inhumane religions ever for LGTBQ+ people.

I was exceedingly lucky to survive the trauma and abuse of the church and my family I received because I dared to question that apostasy would be better than killing myself as a chaste Mormon. I left the church 17 years ago and I am still sorting through the rubble.