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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:17PM

Please enlighten me, good people of the exmo board.

With all that has been going on (my leaving the church, gradually letting on to it to my TBM DW, etc.) I have recognized that this will be a difficult transition for my DW.

I understand that I am the one who is changing here, she's not, so I knew what I was getting in a future spouse when I decided to leave and she is beginning to learn what her future spouse will look like.

That being said, I thought that while the adjustment would be difficult for our marriage, I didn't think that the decision whether or not to STAY MARRIED to me would be so difficult.

Not trying to toot my own horn here, but I'm a good guy, a leader, headed to med school, heavily involved in community service, athletics, and very respectful of all people. The only things "changing" about me are that I will no longer give 10% of my income to the church, I don't want to attend anymore, nor will I abide by the WoW. When it comes to being a "good christian", by golly I'm trying to be the best!

I am ASTONISHED, that for the last couple of months, even after starting marriage therapy, SHE STILL DOESN'T KNOW IF SHE WANTS TO BE MARRIED TO ME ANYMORE.

I expected her to be like, "dang, that sucks that my husband has changed his feelings about the church, but I still love him and we will make this work. I'm committed to this marriage at least. "
Rather, her response, "I don't know if I want to spend my life wondering why it is nothing like I feel like I deserve (for being such a good mormon girl) it to be. I don't know if I want you to be the father of my kids."

Needless to say I am very hurt by this. Is it so unreasonable for me to think that the decision to stay married should be easy for her, while recognizing that the transition phase may take hard work? Because with the way she is acting, I'm really starting to wonder if I want to be married to someone that takes so long a decision to stay married to me over a change in beverage preference (I know I'm making light of this--- to her it is much more than a change in beverage preference, it possibly has eternal consequences).

Thoughts? Feeling broken

EDIT for those who don't remember me: No kids (nor any plans to have them soon), graduating BYU in a month.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2018 07:51PM by mightybuffalo.

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:31PM

I am sure it's more than just what kind of beverages you may or may not be drinking. To think like that is to minimize her DEEP concerns.


I bet she has concerns about future children. You won't be the Melchezidek priesthood holder in your home. You won't be able to bless your children, baptize them, go to the temple and see them married.

You are not a model LDS man anymore. That was what she married, or thought she had married.

For her, is sounds like Mormonism is just not about personal belief, but a whole family orientation.

So, yea, I think it is unreasonable for you to think that the decision to stay married to you would be easy for her.

You have changed A LOT, in all that SHE holds dear.

She wanted and had expectations of a worthy priesthood leader when she married you.

That is gone now.

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:42PM

Right I definitely get that it is much more than a couple of changes. But would you suggest that those other long term, future problems are enough to reasonably question our whole marriage? If so, should I be giving this more thought than my original decision to stay married regardless of her activity in the church?

Selfish me wonders if the lack of love I feel now will be bearable.

Selfless me wonders if I would cause her so much pain that maybe I should consider divorce more seriously to save her from all the heart ache. Now and in the future when those other things start to happen (or don't happen).

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:50PM

mightybuffalo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But would you suggest that
> those other long term, future problems are enough
> to reasonably question our whole marriage?

It doesn't matter what I think is reasonable for her to question. It's what she thinks is reasonable and what you think is reasonable. Her having an LDS family, with a worthy Melchizdek PH may be THAT important to her.


If so,
> should I be giving this more thought than my
> original decision to stay married regardless of
> her activity in the church?
>
> Selfish me wonders if the lack of love I feel now
> will be bearable.
>
> Selfless me wonders if I would cause her so much
> pain that maybe I should consider divorce more
> seriously to save her from all the heart ache. Now
> and in the future when those other things start to
> happen (or don't happen).

All these are very important questions for you to consider as much as the very important questions she has.

It's not just *you* she married. She married a whole host of expectations, her TBM expectations.

Many of her TBM dreams have been shattered now. That is a very painful thing to face.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:33PM

I think your feelings are very understandable. And I think it shows that she married a role (priesthood holder) at least as much as she married YOU.

My Catholic mom married my Protestant dad, and they made it work. My dad never became a Catholic. I was raised Catholic, but my mom would not have objected in the least if I had joined a Protestant church as I got older.

People who love each other and are committed to each other find a way to work out things like that. They put marriage first and family first, as my parents did.

It sounds like your wife is putting religion first.

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:36PM

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think your feelings are very understandable. And
> I think it shows that she married a role
> (priesthood holder) at least as much as she
> married YOU.
>
> My Catholic mom married my Protestant dad, and
> they made it work. My dad never became a Catholic.
> I was raised Catholic, but my mom would not have
> objected in the least if I had joined a Protestant
> church as I got older.
>
> People who love each other and are committed to
> each other find a way to work out things like
> that. They put marriage first and family first, as
> my parents did.
>
> It sounds like your wife is putting religion
> first.

I agree with all of this.

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Posted by: knotheadusc ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 01:15AM

Me too. My husband was LDS when we married, although he was a convert and on his way out. We fell in love with each other. The difference in religion was a non-issue. Then, he left the church, and it was a complete non-issue.

It sounds like your wife puts a lot more stock into the importance of religion than you do. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. But it does seem to me that if the love is real, the religion thing should be surmountable.

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 11:47AM

Amen

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Posted by: Garçon ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:35PM

You changed much more than your drink of choice. You changed the whole plot line of the story. When you married, you shared the answers to the really big questions. Now you're two different people. You may find this interesting, your wife may find this hurtful and frightening. I hope the two of you find peace and love - it may be an adventure you do together, or, you may be doing it with someone else.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:37PM

You are completely right to feel upset by this.

I'd suggest, however, that you give things time. It could be that she gradually decides that her marriage comes first. You've dropped some bombs on her and she is shocked. Sometimes time and reflection help a person decide where her priorities really lie.

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:43PM

What's a reasonable timeline?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:53PM

I can't answer that, my friend.

I'd say a minimum of a year. But it depends how much you two love each other, how much good there is in the relationship other than the religion, children and their needs, and how quickly her attitude hardens.

You need to go with what feels right. Just realize that now (whatever that means) is a really rough time for both of you. Decisions about love and marriage and family are extremely important and hence deserve more time and effort rather than less. There is less danger in taking an extra three months than in making a decision prematurely.

But I suspect that one day you will simply know. You'll know what is right.

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Posted by: StillAnon ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:40PM

Short answer? She looks at it like she bought a pig in a poke. You misrepresented yourself. She signed up for a priesthood holder that will take her and the kids to the CK. You found out the church is BS. She still believes. In her find, you lied and yes, it seems like she's taking the church over you, no matter if you're a really great guy, you ain't going to the CK with her.

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:45PM

Isn't it basically church doctrine that even if I don't go to the CK, that wouldn't prevent her from having an eternal spouse in the CK and still be able to be a goddess and make worlds with another CK-worthy dude.

I'm pretty sure TSCC teaches that single women who don't marry in this life will have the opportunity to do so in the next life. Woudln't this same 'comforting' rationalization apply to a faithful spouse of an apostate?

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:52PM

mightybuffalo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isn't it basically church doctrine that even if I
> don't go to the CK, that wouldn't prevent her from
> having an eternal spouse in the CK and still be
> able to be a goddess and make worlds with another
> CK-worthy dude.
>
> I'm pretty sure TSCC teaches that single women who
> don't marry in this life will have the opportunity
> to do so in the next life. Woudln't this same
> 'comforting' rationalization apply to a faithful
> spouse of an apostate?

Yes, that is true, but you are coming from your head on this with that observation.

This isn't about theology, it's about her feelings and her dreams and her expectations.

You aren't the man she thought she married. You are someone different now.

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Posted by: angela ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:44PM

mightybuffalo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Needless to say I am very hurt by this. Is it so
> unreasonable for me to think that the decision to
> stay married should be easy for her, while
> recognizing that the transition phase may take
> hard work?

Just an aside possible observation here, that may or may not be pertinent.

I see you used "for me to think" statement. IE classic male. Men "think"

Women tend to use "for me to feel" statements, typically. Women "feel"

You may be coming more from your head in how you approach this, she may be coming more from her heart (you know that whole "Men are from Mars, When are from Venus" stereotyped stuff)

Just something for you to think about and consider when talking with your wife.

Good luck

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:47PM

Thanks angela, good point. I am much more of a thinker than a feeler- I largely attribute my leaving the church to this.

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Posted by: zenjamin ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:46PM

You will find medical school to require 100% effort. It is a long hard unforgiving slog. So now is the time to clear the decks.

Tenuously suggest: go to Amazon, find The Rational Male (Rollo Tomassi), dump all preconceptions of what we have been taught, open the mind, and read the first two books. It won't start to gel and make sense until through the first book and start seeing it everywhere. Tenuously suggest because it is a red pill: if you actually do this the universe will not ever be the same. It is in some ways worse. But you will know.

If she's not sure now, wait until reaching the other end of medschool. You will emerge a completely changed man.
And parts of that new man you will not like.

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Posted by: ziller ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:47PM

¿ ~ so OPie has kids or no ? ~

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 08:32AM


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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:55PM

Here's an unpleasant possibility. Maybe your rejection of the church served as a handy cover for her having already decided she doesn't want to be married to you anymore.

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:58PM

If that's the case she was awfully good at playing along beforehand. Doubt it. But valid point

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Posted by: ziller ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 07:58PM

in b 4 ~ be a man OPie ~


in b 4 ~ lead your wife out of MOrmonism and into a strong spirit-filled Bible Church ~

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Posted by: Done &. Done ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 08:17PM

Nothing is unreasonable to feel in this situation. You want to be loved for you. That should not be negotiable.

It is one thing to love somebody, but more important, you have to like them. Like meaning, respect them, see them as an individual, and enjoy what they bring to the relationship.

She doesn't see herself enjoying what you will be bringing to the relationship. That hurts you and it should.

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Posted by: Raider ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 08:29PM

she married the church not you! and now no church no you

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Posted by: NoMoNoWay ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 08:33PM

Is she saying that she’s conflicted? It sounds like (from what you’ve reported) she is just expressing disappointment in you, your decision, etc? Is she ALSO saying positive things, like what a great guy/husband/partner you are? Is she saying how much it would suck not to to have you around? Or just “we are gonna BURN because of you”!!!!

Any evidence whatsoever of “a shelf”?

I would placate her for now, until you’ve got your diploma. I think that may have been mentioned (haha). I hate the say it, but it doesn’t look good. I’m a 20 year veteran of marriage, and it ain’t easy. It’s WORTH IT, but not easy. If you don’t agree on the fundamentals, it’s gonna be rough.

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 08:48PM

She has literally told me that she doesn't know if we should stay together anymore. She's definitely dissapointed in me and has expressed that. She has also expressed how terrible it would be to divorce-- but usually when she says why it has to do with things like dating again, and public image. She has told me once that it would be terrible to divorce someone she still loves. So that's a plus.

There's a shelf. Along with the few things she's added to her shelf because of me, she has also increased her devotion to the church and now attends the temple much more often, started volunteering at the mtc, etc.

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Posted by: paisley70 ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 08:35PM

As long as her family and friends have more influence over her way of thinking than you do, you are SOL.

Once you remove her from her comfort zone for med school in another state, you may get through to her.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 08:52PM

All mormon girls are painted a picture of what life will be like when they're married to a mormon boy. It's all they know and all they imagine. That's why they don't date non-mormon boys. They wouldn't know what to do with one. It's similar to an American marrying another American. It comes with a whole host of ground rules and expectations that are unsaid, but assumed.

But her mormon boy is now a non-mormon boy. That changes everything! It's like if her American boy found out that he's really French and now wants to move to France and be a regular Frenchman. She never envisioned that. It's changes everything about what she thought her life would be like.

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Posted by: gemini ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 08:54PM

Will she, at least, go with you to the med school location? Getting out of Provo and into a place that is not mormon saturated might give her a bit of perspective. Maybe not.


You are going to be in a very intense learning situation and it will demand much of your time and attention. I hope the two of you can turn down the temperature a bit while you both decide how you want the rest of your lives to look.

Good luck.

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Posted by: nevermojohn ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 08:56PM

I think that you both deserve to be in a relationship where you are loved, respected and wanted.

It is reasonable to give her time to adjust to your rejection of Mormonism. You also still need to graduate. Make sure that occurs without unnecessary drama.

She doesn't know whether she wants to be married to you. AFTER YOU GRADUATE, if she says something like that, I would tell her, “I never questioned whether I wanted to be married to you until you started telling me that you aren't sure you want to be married to me. Now, I am beginning to wonder.”

I think it is fair (AFTER YOU GRADUATE!) to get that out in the open and let her know the effect that she has on you every time she says this to you. If she keeps this up, she may remain unsure that she wants to be married to you or not right up to the time you serve her with divorce papers (AFTER YOU GRADUATE!)

I really hope things work out for you two, but don't live your life being treated with less respect, love and acceptance than you deserve and can easily find elsewhere.

Oh, and did I remember to say BE SURE TO GRADUATE1

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Posted by: bobofitz ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 12:57AM

Hi Nevermojohn....I’m putting this under your comment because I agree with it so much. Your emphasis of AFTER YOU GRADUATE is the key here. Mighty buffalo doesn’t seem to be able to realize that things sometimes spin out of control regardless of how much we think we understand how we are in control. Maybe it’s because although very intelligent, he’s still relatively young and hasn’t yet seen what can happen in life. Many of us have warned him to keep his doubts about the Church to himself until he has diploma and transcripts in hand. His Bishop, his in laws, his friends, us here on the board, anyone who reads this board, and yes, his wife are all potential poison to him. ....and yet he still wants to pick at it and keep it bleeding and tell us all how much he has learned about the Church being false, etc,etc. I’m sure it’s difficult to keep quiet when you want things to change to the way you want them. Mightybuf......if you’re reading this, back off, be quiet, if you can for just a little longer. You can’t do it all at once.

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 11:50AM

You're probably right but its already out there with her. No point in my mind to just pretend it didn't happen for another 4 weeks till I get my diploma.

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Posted by: Gatorman not logged in ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 09:00PM

Buff

Any thoughts of asking her to decide by the time to move East or even graduation?

Gman

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 12:18AM

Gatorman,

I've talked to her about a timeline and she hasn't given me any kind of perspective on how much time it will take. I would love to know by graduation though, holy smokes. Will talk to her about it asap.

buff

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Posted by: bobofitz ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 01:17AM

Terrible terrible idea. The last thing you want to do is bring this thing to a head before you graduate. My young friend, you are playing with fire. You have gotten some good advice from the good people here but it’s too soon to put any of it into action. Now is not the time for confrontation or ultimatums.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 04:04AM

Now is a good time to take a page out of Joseph Smith’s playbook. You know, the one that got him all kinds of ass.

“Honey, I’ve had a revelation. The spirit has told me to remain faithful in the church. I’ve seen the error of my ways and repented.”

The problem is you can’t switch horses midstream. It’s stupid to try. Save your stupidity for more worthwhile things.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 09:20PM

She wanted to out do her mom, and now, with you, she can't.

It was probably never about who she married, but what she married. She wanted "you" the mormon priestholder about whose progress she could brag, not "you" the human being wearing your particular suit of skin.

If you guys 'work' at making it work, you're both going wind up feeling cheated, because you DID cheat yourselves!

But still, I bet that if you stop talking about it and just buckle down to getting through the rest of the school year and then moved up to CO, and leave it totally up to her, she'll chicken out of leaving you. If you stop 'fighting' for her, she may take a second look, even a third look, at the situation. But you have to know that you can do better and the confidence that gives you is going to frustrate her.

That's how I'm reading the crumbs on my dessert plate!

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 12:20AM

what do you mean stop fighting for her elderolddog?

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Posted by: Moe Howard ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 09:45PM

IMHO,
You are finding out now what you will eventually find out later (and you will have children). You don't understand, her being Mormon is more important than your marriage. Your marriage may survive but you will have to play a little hard ball. All cards on the table. "Can you be married to me if I'm not LDS?" This is a yes or no. I've been through this, she may say yes now and no later. Shields up , phasers on stun

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Posted by: anon4this ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 10:41PM

I think it's only fair to give your wife time to sort through her feelings and see if she comes around. Like others have said, Mormons generally marry to fill a role. As soon as it looks like you can't perform the role anymore by leaving the church, they're often quick to consider what life would be like without you.

I think it's also important in the meantime to spend some time deciding what YOU want. Do you want to be married to someone who thinks so little of you? I'm in a marriage like that even though I'm the heavy lifter in the relationship. None of my good qualities make up for the fact that I don't believe in the Mormon fairy tale. My situation is much more complicated than yours otherwise I'd cut ties with my spouse.

Good luck. I hope your wife opens her eyes. But if she doesn't, you're young, move on before kids might complicate things.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 10:44PM

This is advice I have given women, but I believe is appropriate for you.

1st, be careful you do not give her grounds outside of the religious problem to resent, disparage, or vilify you. She may become aggressive looking for additional argument to reinforce her case, whether it be in her own thinking or in divorce litigation. Take care of your household, financial, and relationship responsibilities. Let her know you love and appreciate her, and show it in ways she should appreciate (gifts, cards, flowers, endearments, courtesies). I hope it goes without saying, but do nothing that is angry, aggressive, or (seriously) violent, like breaking a dish or raising a fist or even your voice. So if the worst comes, she has only the religious agenda to justify her decision.

1-A) You have to be blameless before her and her society. And who knows? She may appreciate the gentleman-husband in you afresh!

2nd, start a journal, and record your thoughts, conversations, and events in the marriage. Start with a long preface and write out how everything came about, meaning the marriage problem, not your apostasy or problems with the church. And start recording what she says about the marriage, what she tells you other people have said, what you have done to salvage the marriage (see #1, above), and so on.

2A) Include sex or lack of: who initiated lovemaking, who resisted, why, how things went, etc. Willingness or refusal to accommodate one's spouse is both a spiritual and a legal issue.

This A) will help you organize your thoughts and feelings, which B) is actually empowering, even if you're discouraged at times. C) It will be useful if there is a divorce, giving you psychological and moral integrity and establishing to 3rd parties (lawyers, arbitrators, court) what you did, didn't do, etc.

Obviously, you need to keep this journal private and secure. At worst, this journal will help you in divorce proceedings. Hopefully, a few years from now you'll find it was unnecessary and can safely destroy it because you're happily married to the love of your life.

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Posted by: zenjamin ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 10:44PM

True Desire cannot be negotiated.

Men are the true romantics, pretending to be realists;
Women are the true realists, pretending to be romantics.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2018 10:46PM by zenjamin.

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Posted by: LeftTheMorg ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 11:11PM

I'm a woman who came to the realization the church wasn't true before my spouse did. I empathize with what you're going through.

A couple of important thoughts:
1) you want to be certain she is a human being who actually has a conscience (there are some people who did not develop a conscience, but are very skilled at pretending). Only if she has a conscience can you hope that she might one day discover for herself the church is not true and still remain faithful to you.

2) her personality type is very important. If she's a person with a strong need for certainty it will be very difficult for her to leave the church (Certain personality types fall for conspiracy theories, for example). So her personality type has a lot to do with how she responds over time. Is she more of a rational thinker -requiring evidence before she believes things she hears, or is she more of an emotional decider? Has she shown you a great deal of empathy over the time you've been married?

3) make certain you do not respond to her, under any circumstance, with anger. Cry instead. Train yourself to cry instead of being angry around her. Go for a walk alone if you feel anger coming on. If she sees anger from you she likely will interpret it as evil and make your position more difficult. There's got to be lots of love and tears and empathy from you over her pain she's now experiencing. And you need to be able to grieve and cry over the loss of a church you once placed all your hopes and dreams on, which turned out to be a mirage. She needs to know that you grieve the loss.

I hope the above helps. I'm pulling for you.

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 12:28AM

That's awesome stuff. I have been trying to do some of this already but haven't put a finger on an exact strategy. I like it

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Posted by: spiritist ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 11:29PM

My experience is that I brought up the 'D' idea shortly after I quit going to church. Kids are all out on their own.

Immediately my wife made the decision to want to stay married. She may have thought about it that night and the next day but there was no indication of that. We never discussed it again as I 'believed' the decision was made at the time I brought it up.

Maturity has a lot to do with it. If she has a problem making up her mind about 'your marriage' I would be worried about staying married to her. Sorry but trying to be honest.

Why did she marry you in the first place??? Spiritually, marriage to each other should mean a whole lot more than any 'religious belief' as she should have felt right about your marriage on a 'spiritual level' not only religious one.

My wife and I have seen how 'single women' (young and old) tend to fare in life during her church callings. Many have some real 'issues' and develop more 'issues' the longer they are single.

Good luck in whatever decision you make!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2018 11:33PM by spiritist.

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 12:31AM

Spiritist,

This is an interesting example. And frankly, what I was looking for. My brother had a similar experience leaving the church with his wife-- she almost immediately decided to stay together, then started the process to work it out.

I guess my next question is has anyone had a similar experience with an undecided spouse post 'coming out' with regards to leaving the church.

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Posted by: Darren Steers ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 08:45AM

mightybuffalo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I guess my next question is has anyone had a
> similar experience with an undecided spouse post
> 'coming out' with regards to leaving the church.

Yes. It ended in divorce.

A marriage cannot work if one of the partners is stuck in the "I'm not sure I want to remain married" mindset.

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Posted by: edzachery ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 12:13PM

mightybuffalo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> has anyone had a
> similar experience with an undecided spouse post
> 'coming out' with regards to leaving the church.

Like Darren, my marriage is ending in divorce. My spouse was squarely in the corner of "The church is more important than the marriage," which hurts like hell. I just picked up my divorce papers from the post office today...signing them and sending them back to attorney in another state, waiting 30 days, then judge signs also making it official.

The sheer magnitude of the mind fuck that occurs to the spouse who stops believing in the cult is incalculable. Does a TBM spouse believe that:
1. It is FUN to be told that a global land speculation corporation (i.e. tscc) is more important than a 20+ year marriage? How does someone come to grips with that kick in the nuts? That's absolutely brutal.
2. It is FUN to lose 1/2 of everything accumulated during marriage, plus (in my case) my house, my kids who won't talk to me anymore, and a considerable amount of support for the next 10+ years?
3. It's FUN to realize that nearly everything you'd been taught for the last 25 years in tscc has been summarily disavowed by the morg in obscure essays that very few people in the organization have actually read? And that your former "friends" and associates in the organization now vilify you publicly and shun you because of acting rationally on factual information from the organization itself caused you to come to conclusions that no longer jive with their belief system (whatever that may be)?

I'm sorry, buff, about what you're going through...but lots of us on this site have gone through or are currently going through the same thing. Please don't have any kids until you get this resolved...I'm feeling plenty of guilt about one of my children who is getting married in a temple soon, because they will be locked in to the morg way of thinking forever...or it will cost them dearly to get out of it when they come to their senses later in life.

Good luck, buddy. Hang in there.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 11:37PM

Myself, I was in it forever, no matter what. AND I had a gay husband who was cheating on me with other men. I loved him. I also had twins to raise. I would have stayed forever.

For one, I had been single until age 27 in the lds church. I had given up opportunities to marry nonmormons 3 times for a TM. There isn't a really good pick of mormon men if you are divorced, let alone single. I was so happy to finally be married that I would look at my ring and think "I can't believe it." No way in hell did I want to go back to the dating world.

She has a good man. To throw one away is STUPID.

I would not ask anymore. I would just go on getting through school and ready to leave for Colorado. I've said before that men should call their bluff.

My ex kept talking divorce to me after I found out he was cheating. One morning, I woke up and told him what he could take when he moved out. I told him it wasn't going to work. He did lose it. He had to get in to see his therapist as he was suicidal. Of course, when I was suicidal, he didn't give a shit and left me anyway. I know my ex is gay, but if I had called his bluff several times, he would have never left. Even his gay friends say I'm his support. Even my boyfriend says my ex needs me.

As long as she knows you still want her, she'll keep this up. Once you act as though it just doesn't matter or that you're ready to move on, you might see a difference.

Like the mother said to her daughter in "Hope Floats," your wife is throwing away all her chances. Does she think there is an endless supply of good men out there (especially in mormonism)? She's a fool.

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Posted by: brettys ( )
Date: March 20, 2018 11:38PM

What were the reasons that made you leave the church? Can you ask her the same questions you asked yourself as you lost faith? Explain your decisions in depth to her. A lot of wonderful people are leaving the church right now. You are in good company. I think you will have a general feeling with how things are going in three months or so. Good luck.

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Posted by: Elyse ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 12:05AM

She is deluding herself if she thinks she can do better after getting a divorce.

She just does not realize yet how hard it will be to sit as a divorcee in the Mormon church.

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Posted by: Pooped ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 12:52AM

This won't tell you what to do or expect but it might help you to understand a bit. You and your wife are looking at things from completely different perspectives. I get a strong sense of your frustration. You have cleared away all the fog of false Mormon dogma to see a picture of your life free from the confines of Mormonism. Your wife is completely engulfed in the fog and thinks that it is protecting her rather than misleading and confusing her. Her picture only sees bliss within Mormonism. You two are at a standoff from my viewpoint. You are pushing for answers right now. Yet, until she can clear away some of the fog of dogma and indoctrination, with your help, she cannot see things from your perspective at all. She only sees the situation from her perspective. It feels like the more anxious you are for resolution of this stalemate the more you are pushing her away. And, believe me, I can feel your pain regarding how easily she seems to want to end a perfectly sound and loving marriage. I just wish you could slow this down a bit so she could get some clarity and some sense of security. But I'm not there and I don't know either of you. Just my musings for what they are worth.

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Posted by: Free Man ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 12:53AM

You weren't supposed to discover the reality of the marriage scam at such a young age. You know, the idea that your spouse has unconditional love.

If you had kept feeding her need for status among her family and social group, you would have thought she actually loved you.

I mean, doctor, priesthood holder, etc, she had it made!

I had such status once, and then realized most of it was BS and let her know. This after 3 kids, and 20 years of marriage.

Then the divorce threats came. She backed down and we're still together, but no more fantasy. She's here simply because she doesn't have better options, or doesn't want to put out the effort.

I've heard through the grapevine what many wives think about their husbands. Those guys actually think their wife loves them, but they are just a few paychecks away from divorce.

There is little loyalty - guys are a source of income and status. Much like the workplace is to most guys - when we find a better deal, we bail.

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Posted by: Free Man ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 01:08AM

Let me add. You need to talk to her about this behavior and attitude and her need for status. Forget doctrine and history and WoW, etc.

Jesus railed against the hypocrites that were all about status. Read that again.

Talk to her about marriage. Ask her if it is about status and income and not about loving the person.

Ask her if it would be right of you to leave her if she gained weight - after all, that would hurt your status and image, right?

Ask her if quitting church leads to divorce, what else would? How much money does she expect? What happens if you don't make it through med school?

Ask her if she was ever more committed to you than her family and church. What ever happened to leaving family and cleaving unto your spouse?

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1990/01/a-man-shall-cleave-unto-his-wife-marriage-and-family-advice-from-the-old-testament?lang=eng

Quote:

The covenant between Adam and Eve is summarized in Genesis 2:24: “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” [Gen. 2:24] Referring to this scripture, President Spencer W. Kimball commented, “Do you note that? She, the woman, occupies the first place. She is preeminent, even above the parents who are so dear to all of us. Even the children must take their proper but significant place.

“I have seen some women who give their children that spot, that preeminence, in their affection and crowd out the father. That is a serious mistake.” (Ensign, Mar. 1976, p. 72.)

It is all too common in modern times for husbands and wives to place various people or activities—work, recreation, extended family, even Church service—above their marital bond. This is not necessarily a conscious decision. However, the covenant made by Adam and Eve to leave parents and be one teaches us that successful couples will be careful to place each other first. The greatest gift parents can give children is a united and loving marital bond.

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Posted by: Pooped ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 08:55AM

Mightybuffalo thinks his marriage is between himself and his wife. There is a third entity in his marriage and it is bigger than either of them. His wife "married" the Mormon church at age eight and it encompasses a whole army of "others" including almost anyone with the priesthood authority over her: RS President, home teachers, parents, etc, etc.

The mind shift to get the "institution" out of their bedroom is enormous. It requires reversing years of attachment. I certainly hope the marriage counselor is not Mormon. The first rule of conflict management is that the moderator needs to be a neutral third party with no other goal in mind than to bring the two conflicting parties back to harmony. A Mormon therapist/counselor would certainly have a difficult time working towards that goal without seeing Mormonism as necessary to the final solution. Can Mrs. Buffalo separate her marriage from her faith? That would be a giant accomplishment!

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 09:26AM

Mightlybuffalo, I always believe in being fully informed before making decisions. One thing that I would do is to pay for a consult with a lawyer who specializes in family law. A consult won't cost that much or might even be free. Find a lawyer with a good reputation (people on this board might be able to give you referrals.) Ask about financial consequences of being divorced now as opposed to after you start med school. Play out various scenarios.

I think that being fully informed about potential financial consequences might bring you a greater clarity about your situation. It might give you the breathing room to stay in or it might be a huge red flag to get out (given your wife's negativity.)

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Posted by: rubi123 ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 11:53AM

Sounds like you've got a long, tough road ahead of you if you stay married. If I were you, I'd seriously consider cutting her loose and finding someone else. Why battle with your disagreements about the LDS Church for decades? Why be subjected to guilt if you have a beer or other alcohol?

You can surely find a suitable life partner with whom you can maybe have a margarita with tacos or some wine while enjoying a nice evening together. You know, "sinful" things like that!

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Posted by: mightybuffalo ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 12:00PM

rubi123, it is definitely starting to get tempting. I'm trying not to make to rash of a decision though. I'd hate to end something fast and years later feel like I didn't try hard enough or it was a mistake. I really hope that tacos and margarita life partner can be my current wife.

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Posted by: quidprostatusquo ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 12:29PM

I'm surprised that you're surprised.

You know very well that if she believes in mormonism, then staying married to you is tantamount to forfeiting all the blessings of the gospel, including eternal life.

Her children won't be born under the covenant. You won't be able to give priesthood blessings. You won't ordain your sons into the priesthood. You won't bless your children.

You won't go to the temple together. She'll wear garments, you won't. The blessings of heaven won't pour down because you won't be paying a full tithe.

You're not wrong for leaving the church. You're wrong for expecting her experience to be as mundane as "my husband doesn't believe the same stuff as me."

Even though I respect your choice, it's still a betrayal that she could not have expected.

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Posted by: Nottelling ( )
Date: March 21, 2018 12:35PM

Maybe you go to Med School and leave her in Provo or wherever you are and have some time apart before making any decisions. At that point if it is divorce it might be easier if you are already apart physically, or she may have a change of heart and come to you. Med school will be hard and I am guessing you won't have much time for her even if things were good. I am assuming Med School will require all of your time and concentration.

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